Volcanic ash affecting piston engines?

peter-h

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peter-h
As you guys are probably aware, there was a volcanic event in Iceland and the winds have carried the stuff to the UK and central Europe.

A couple of links are here and here.

Apparently, ICAO recommends a ban on IFR clearances in controlled airspace if there is volcanic ash present, and this, it is claimed, is why most of NW European commercial aviation was more or less automatically shut down.

Some countries have even banned all flight (e.g. N France, and Netherlands) although here in the UK one can still fly outside controlled airspace (VFR and IFR).

Exec jets continue to fly (VFR until out of the UK) although some curious ATC measures appear to have been brought in to limit this.

There are conflicting views on whether the commercial ban is just the standard legal ar*se covering, and there are conflicting views on whether GA could possibly be affected by something which is invisible.

Yesterday I flew 400nm in England at 5500ft and with the exception of a brief (10 mins) haze area, which is hardly unusual given the high pressure conditions, the vis was unlimited i.e. 30nm plus.

An atmospheric research aircraft flight reports sulphuric acid etc at these levels, though I don't yet know where they flew. For all I know they may have gone right into where the plume is known to be (in the animation above).

I find it hard to believe that anything harmful (to a piston engine) could exist if the vis is unlimited.

And smog, which covers many large cities, is full of sulphuric acid.

After my flight, there was nothing on the aircraft and the air filter looks just like before i.e. spotless clean.

The reason I am asking in a US forum is because the USA has been down this road before, with Mt St Helens.
 
Volcanic ash can clog your piston engine's air filter pretty fast (depending, obviously, on ash density in the air). If you bypass the filter and it's ingested into the pistons, it can do significant abrasive damage to the engine's innards. All in all, not good for piston engines, either.
 
I am talking of flight in unlimited horizontal visibility, blue skies.

Not flight through the plume of a volcano.
 
There's more to consider than just what Ron said. Even when not concentrated, smaller ash particles don't to nice things to windscreens and get into a lot of things like bearings and other orifices. Just more to consider.

Anyone up there now is probably flying their ash off <g>

Best,

Dave
 
My recollection is that Mount Saint Helens was definitely a problem for piston engines, even cars.

The Weather Channel says the ash in Europe is between 28,000 and 35,000 feet or thereabouts, but I don't know whether that means the concentration is safe below that.
 
I got the impression in Hawaii that they constantly work on their airframes around Mauna Loa- they see enough stuff from volcanos.

3828098670_7c5b16d676.jpg


They fly close to the steam too- I was with a CFI and I'd thought he'd want me further away than this:
4001183209_e78bbf87ca.jpg


We were in the clear and before I could dodge around it, I could see through it if there was traffic coming the other way.

That steam is chock full of sulfuric acid. During my visit, the whole island was hazy with the stuff when I was there.

This photograph is south of Kona on the other side of the island- the haze is from the volcano vent off HI 11- so it blew over the top of the mountain:
4001176039_08fbb496cb.jpg


I was glad to get to the windward side for awhile.


My opinion is that if it's clear, as the OP indicated, you're Ok. I'll change my opinion when someone who deals with this stuff often (HI or AK) tells me the facts.
 
I am talking of flight in unlimited horizontal visibility, blue skies.
Well, if there's no ash, there's no problem. But maybe I'm not understanding the question. Or are you talking about the presence of ash with such low density as to not obstruct vision? In that case, I think you're a test pilot.
 
I just heard that there is at least one p121 operator (not sure if they're U.S. based actually) who's completed a test flight in these conditions recently without incident. They're evaluating the engines right now and apparently plan to use this evidence to become exempt from IFR restrictions in the next few days.

I've also heard that these cancellations are costing the airlines $200MM/day. Given that, I would think that they would try all they to start flying again as soon as possible. I'm sure that this is, to a large extend, driven by a calculation of possible legal costs for defending against a lawsuit vis-a-vis the cost of cancellations.

-Felix
 
I got the impression in Hawaii that they constantly work on their airframes around Mauna Loa- they see enough stuff from volcanos.



They fly close to the steam too- I was with a CFI and I'd thought he'd want me further away than this:


We were in the clear and before I could dodge around it, I could see through it if there was traffic coming the other way.

That steam is chock full of sulfuric acid. During my visit, the whole island was hazy with the stuff when I was there.

This photograph is south of Kona on the other side of the island- the haze is from the volcano vent off HI 11- so it blew over the top of the mountain:


I was glad to get to the windward side for awhile.


My opinion is that if it's clear, as the OP indicated, you're Ok. I'll change my opinion when someone who deals with this stuff often (HI or AK) tells me the facts.

There is a difference between junk thrown into the air from the dust cloud. And "steam" rising from the ocean where hot lava flows into the water.
 
But maybe I'm not understanding the question.

The OP did not ask a question! But that's ok, we can discuss anyway.


I don't defend the closure of European airspace, but I think we can deduce why they did.

a. All night flight is pretty much out, because no one can see the stuff - your only indication might be St Elmos.....or when you get a flameout. :(
b. All flight in imc is out for the same reason, the pilots can't see where it is.
c. Controllers can't know where it is - its not picked up by radar, isn't on their scopes so they can't issue routes around it except 'go to Africa, turn right'.
d. Some googling says the stuff can be invisible as well. So you could have good vis, but the particulates can still apparently be present. I would have doubted this earlier.

Taking all this into account, I now see why they want to be aggressive about it.
They are also thinking, "OK let's say we don't close it down. Then one or two Airbusses plow into the ocean. Will we be second-guessed? Um, yea-ah."
 
There is a difference between junk thrown into the air from the dust cloud. And "steam" rising from the ocean where hot lava flows into the water.
You do get a fair amount of ash tossed up too. The lava cools very rapidly and forms fine particles that are also carried aloft. Pretty much the same situation as Iceland where the glacial ice is rapidly cooling the lava. It's just on a much smaller and localized scale.
 
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Best,

Dave
=========================================================
From the UK Met office:

From http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2010/volcano.html
Last updated: 2000 on Saturday, 17 April 2010

Volcano

The Eyjafjallajökull volcano is still erupting, and possibly intensifying, with the ash plume rising to 30,000 feet. Evidence of ash dust over the UK is being detected by Met Office observations and there are reports of dust reaching the ground.

The Met Office commissioned NERC research flight flew over the North Sea on Friday afternoon and detected 3 distinct layers of ash, from fine particles at low levels to large particles around 8,000 feet.

All these observations are consistent with our forecast plumes for where the ash cloud would spread and how it would mix through the atmosphere.

The Met Office is working closely with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and National Air Traffic Services (NATS), and because of the worsening volcanic activity UK airspace has now been closed until 1am Sunday. We continue to look for weather windows that will allow air space restrictions to be lifted.


Animated map:
animated_plume-v8.gif
 
It should be Pele, but I think tort reform now makes that impossible.
Yeah. Under GARA, there's that pesky 18-year statute of limitations for such aviation matters, and I suspect the volcano is over 18 years old. Or does each new eruption reset the clock? Any thoughts on that, you lawyers out there?
 
You do get a fair amount of ash tossed up too. The lava cools very rapidly and forms fine particles that are also carried aloft. Pretty much the same situation as Iceland where the glacial ice is rapidly cooling the lava. It's just on a much smaller and localized scale.
thanx
 
It's George Bush's fault.
 
On AvWeb today: (News flash: Hampshie England to change name to Asheville!!)

Best,

Dave
==============================================
Ash Connection Probed In U.K. Crash
icevolcano.jpg
Authorities in England are investigating whether volcanic ash had anything to do with the crash of a light plane in Hampshire. Two people died when the aircraft crashed and burned in a field Saturday afternoon, well away from buildings or other people.
Apr 17, 7:49pm UTC
http://www.avweb.com/
 
Any suggestion of an ash connection in that accident is total bollox.
 
Seems folks that want to fly there for a bit will have to find le produit Chamols Butt until things settle down a bit. Doesn't help with flying, but one's butt doesn't get chafed in the meantime. We're having to use it a lot when dealing with TSA!!

Best,

Dave
 
Goldman Sachs seems to be the popular choice this week.

Can't sue them! I put them down as a dependent on my tax return this year!! Along with Citibank; GM, FannieMae; Chrysler, etc.. Lots of dependents in '09!

Best,

Dave
 
For the record, when St.Helens blew, many cars were damaged, due to the ash, but it was thick enough that you had to have your head lights on to see, the ash blocked out the sun for several days in eastern Wa.

Clear skys? = no ash. clean filter? = no ash, / no engine damage.
 
Seems folks that want to fly there for a bit will have to find le produit Chamols Butt until things settle down a bit. Doesn't help with flying, but one's butt doesn't get chafed in the meantime. We're having to use it a lot when dealing with TSA!!

Best,

Dave

I had thought when dealing with TSA the product of choice was Vaseline?
 
I had thought when dealing with TSA the product of choice was Vaseline?

Different applications Ted! Le produit Chamols Butt would prevent one's butt from being chaffed. Uh, your recommendation would be for more penetrating issues. :rofl:

Best,

Dave
 
Different applications Ted! Le produit Chamols Butt would prevent one's butt from being chaffed. Uh, your recommendation would be for more penetrating issues. :rofl:

Best,

Dave

When dealing with TSA, issues have a nasty tendency of penetrating deep into one's core. :rofl:
 
Sorry to have digressed. This was all about one big ash hole; guess that's how we got off track.

Back on topic, it seems lots of GA planes did fly under the ash and commercial flights are being restored in some areas.

Best,

Dave
 
There are still occassions one hopes to get better responses here than in the previous version of this forum (rec.aviation.*)

:)
 
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