Visual approach question?

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
Ok procedural question:

Pilot is on an IR flight plan and above a solid under-cast. As the pilot approaches the destination airport a class Delta, The under-cast breaks up but the ceiling is still scattered to broken.

Approach advises pilot to report airport in sight. Pilot sees airport and advises airport in sight.

Approach clears pilot for visual approach and instructs pilot to contact tower. Tower instructs pilot to report midfield downwind. Pilot chops and drops and enters pattern still squawking IFR code. But once at TPA realizes they cannot fly pattern without flying through a cloud or two at TPA that would cause them to loose sight of field.

Does Pilot, fly normal pattern and fly through clouds in pattern? Does pilot deviate from pattern by going above or below TPA or around cloud? Advise tower?

Entire pattern is not flown through clouds just a segment. What to do?
 
As you are still on an IFR clearance even if given a visual approach (unless you cancelled) if you have to descend below the circling minimums to keep the airport in sight you should request a full approach, imho.
 
Yes, you can descend below TPA. I personally use circling mins, until "in a position to begin final descent".
 
Agree with what has been said above. The one thing I would add is that if there was ANY doubt as to whether I could maintain VMC once sighting the airport, I would not report the airport in sight/accept the visual approach.

Just because you can see the airport in between clouds doesn't mean you have to report it in sight.
 
AdamZ said:
Ok procedural question:

Pilot is on an IR flight plan and above a solid under-cast. As the pilot approaches the destination airport a class Delta, The under-cast breaks up but the ceiling is still scattered to broken.

Approach advises pilot to report airport in sight. Pilot sees airport and advises airport in sight.

Approach clears pilot for visual approach and instructs pilot to contact tower. Tower instructs pilot to report midfield downwind. Pilot chops and drops and enters pattern still squawking IFR code. But once at TPA realizes they cannot fly pattern without flying through a cloud or two at TPA that would cause them to loose sight of field.

Does Pilot, fly normal pattern and fly through clouds in pattern? Does pilot deviate from pattern by going above or below TPA or around cloud? Advise tower?

Entire pattern is not flown through clouds just a segment. What to do?
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On a visual approach you must remain clear of clouds so don't "fly a normal pattern through the clouds". Visual approaches are supposed to require a minimum ceiling of 1000 AGL and 3sm visibility so theoretically you shouldn't encounter anything beyond scatters clouds which you can dodge laterally or vertically.

But I wouldn't ask for or accept a visual approach clearance if I had any reservations about the weather. Most of the time when a visual might be dicey, a contact approach would be a better option if you're familiar with the area, otherwise I'd insist on a full approach.
 
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Agreed with the above. You shouldn't fly through the clouds on a visual approach. At that point you're asking for trouble. If I was doing a visual and had to do some different altitudes to avoid clouds, I wouldn't bother telling tower, I'd just do it. However, more likely I'd just ask for a full approach. Center/approach/whoever can try to assign you whatever approach, but you're the one who has to accept it.
 
Everyone answered your question with "I wouldn't do that!" I'll play along and blindly put myself in the situation you describe and tell you how I'd deal with it, just to mix it up a little.

Obviously, maneuver as required to stay out of the clouds, and that's great if that works. Otherwise, if unable, announce that you've lost sight of the runway and turn to the center of the runway and fly the missed approach from that spot when you reach it.

Pretty textbook really. (Or, as I expect, we'll have 50,000 opinions to the contrary... :rolleyes2:)

You don't get to the really fun IFR questions until the DPE asks you what you do when you're 2000' below the MAP and a deer is standing on the runway and a wall of granite in front of you buried in solid IMC... and then there's the ice....
 
thomascannon said:
Everyone answered your question with "I wouldn't do that!" I'll play along and blindly put myself in the situation you describe and tell you how I'd deal with it, just to mix it up a little.

Obviously, maneuver as required to stay out of the clouds, and that's great if that works. Otherwise, if unable, announce that you've lost sight of the runway and turn to the center of the runway and fly the missed approach from that spot when you reach it.

Pretty textbook really. (Or, as I expect, we'll have 50,000 opinions to the contrary... :rolleyes2:)

You don't get to the really fun IFR questions until the DPE asks you what you do when you're 2000' below the MAP and a deer is standing on the runway and a wall of granite in front of you buried in solid IMC... and then there's the ice....
Click to expand...

Which missed approach procedure would you select?
 
thomascannon said:
....Obviously, maneuver as required to stay out of the clouds, and that's great if that works. Otherwise, if unable, announce that you've lost sight of the runway and turn to the center of the runway and fly the missed approach from that spot when you reach it.
Click to expand...

TMetzinger said:
Which missed approach procedure would you select?
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Worst case turn to the airport report conditions (IMC) going missed to the tower and circle/climb in the safe area 'above the airport' when handed off to contact approach advise.
 
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GMascelli said:
Worst case turn to the airport report conditions (IMC) going missed to the tower and circle/climb in the safe area 'above the airport' when handed off to contact approach advise.
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But Tim's question is very much on point. What missed do you fly? You are not on a charted approach.Many runways have multiple approaches each can have its own missed. Even my little podunk two approach airport has two different missed approach procedures for the same runway.

What you would do is announce that you lost sight of the runway and request a vector for an approach. Hopefully name the approach you want too.
 
In the scenario proposed why would you accept a visual in the first place?

You are/were IMC and you are cleared to fly the approach... So you can see the approach lights at some point, so what?
It will take exactly the same amount of time to finish flying the needles to DH/MAP as it will to accept the visual and finish flying to DH/MAP... There is no reward for accepting the visual and in fact there is a penalty - you lose one IFR approach you should have logged...
The fact that ATC wants me to accept the visual and clear "their" board means nothing to me - without my flight and others like me they would be wiping tables at Mickey D's...
Once I have done all the work of getting established on an IFR approach, I am going to fly it AND log, it... I will not put myself in the position of having to fly the missed and beg for another approach... And I will not put myself in the position of having a FSDO inspector in the control tower write me up for cancelling IFR when the field was still technically IMC because that little clump of 'broken' you flew through visually, registered on the AWOS... (it's been done)

denny-o
 
Well sometimes when you take the visual you can get there faster, if you're not yet established on the approach and the IAF is not between you and the airport. For example, if I'm coming to Leesburg (KJYO) from the southwest, I can save time by taking a visual approach instead of getting vectored for an approach to 17.

But I'd never take a visual unless I was sure I could maintain visual conditions all the way to touchdown. For me, that means it's clear at my altitude and below.
 
ScottM said:
But Tim's question is very much on point. What missed do you fly? You are not on a charted approach.Many runways have multiple approaches each can have its own missed. Even my little podunk two approach airport has two different missed approach procedures for the same runway.

What you would do is announce that you lost sight of the runway and request a vector for an approach. Hopefully name the approach you want too.
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If not on a "charted approach" at that point as Adam posted ....

"Approach clears pilot for visual approach and instructs pilot to contact tower. Tower instructs pilot to report midfield downwind"

I would turn directly to the airport, circle/climb then call. I would not want to continue on the downwind or waste time in the pattern below the MSA. Potential for to many bad things to happen.:eek:
 
AdamZ said:
Ok procedural question:

Pilot is on an IR flight plan and above a solid under-cast. As the pilot approaches the destination airport a class Delta, The under-cast breaks up but the ceiling is still scattered to broken.

Approach advises pilot to report airport in sight. Pilot sees airport and advises airport in sight.

Approach clears pilot for visual approach and instructs pilot to contact tower. Tower instructs pilot to report midfield downwind. Pilot chops and drops and enters pattern still squawking IFR code. But once at TPA realizes they cannot fly pattern without flying through a cloud or two at TPA that would cause them to loose sight of field.

Does Pilot, fly normal pattern and fly through clouds in pattern? Does pilot deviate from pattern by going above or below TPA or around cloud? Advise tower?

Entire pattern is not flown through clouds just a segment. What to do?
Click to expand...

Pilot does not report field in sight. Bad move. Opens a can of worms. Stay swaddled in the ATC blanket as long as possible.

Bob Gardner
 
As noted, you are on a particular sort of IFR clearance which requires you to keep the airport in sight. Therefore, flying into a cloud would violate your clearance, and is prohibited. Per 91.123, you are therefore required to notify ATC before you enter a cloud, and obtain an amended clearance (say, to climb and maintain an altitude above the MIA and proceed to the IAF for a SIAP).

As to descending below TPA, that's a fuzzier question. The idea of using circling minimums isn't germane, since a) you weren't cleared for an SIAP which includes those minimums, b) there may not be circling minimums, c) you may not be inside the designated protected area for circling mins at that airport, and d) you may already be below circling mins at TPA. The basic 91.119 rules apply to your minimum altitude, and that gets back to the old question of flying below TPA in order to maintain whatever cloud clearance applies. If descending below TPA would put you below the lowest 91.119-legal altitude, then you cannot legally descend below TPA on a visual approach until descent is required to land using normal maneuvers and a normal rate of descent.

Finally, as noted, there is no valid missed approach procedure off a visual approach. Once you accept a visual approach, you have made a contract with ATC to stay out of the clouds and get to the runway visually within whatever limits ATC has assigned to your flight path. From the AIM:
e. A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.
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All in all, I'm with Bob -- if there's any doubt in your mind about whether or not you can execute the visual all the way to touchdown without going in a cloud, "just say no" and take a SIAP instead.
 
AdamZ said:
Ok procedural question:

Pilot is on an IR flight plan and above a solid under-cast. As the pilot approaches the destination airport a class Delta, The under-cast breaks up but the ceiling is still scattered to broken.

Approach advises pilot to report airport in sight. Pilot sees airport and advises airport in sight.
Click to expand...

What's on the ATIS WRT weather and approaches in use? Approaching the destination airport our intrepid aviator should be at or near the MIA. If there's a solid undercast at that altitude a visual approach is not an option.
 
gismo said:
On a visual approach you must remain clear of clouds so don't "fly a normal pattern through the clouds". Visual approaches are supposed to require a minimum ceiling of 1000 AGL and 3sm visibility so theoretically you shouldn't encounter anything beyond scatters clouds which you can dodge laterally or vertically.
Click to expand...

That 1000' ceiling would be between the pilot and the airport, as the pilot could be no lower than the Minimum IFR Altitude prior to being cleared for the visual approach. Visual approaches at a towered field are impractical with a ceiling lower than the MIA + 500' or visibility less than about seven miles.
 
thomascannon said:
You don't get to the really fun IFR questions until the DPE asks you what you do when you're 2000' below the MAP and a deer is standing on the runway and a wall of granite in front of you buried in solid IMC... and then there's the ice....
Click to expand...

I'd land.
 
If you accept the visual, you maneuver as required to stay out of the clouds. If that would put you in an uncomfortable position then "Unable on visual".
 
Henning said:
If you accept the visual, you maneuver as required to stay out of the clouds. If that would put you in an uncomfortable position then "Unable on visual".
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I agree. I have changed my mind before, although not after I was already in the pattern. Tower would need to turn you back over to approach to have them vector you or get you in position for the approach.
 
roncachamp said:
That 1000' ceiling would be between the pilot and the airport, as the pilot could be no lower than the Minimum IFR Altitude prior to being cleared for the visual approach.
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A broken deck constitutes a ceiling, and a broken deck may be as little as 50% sky coverage. In such a case, with good vis, it may well be possible to legally excecute a visual approach from above the deck creating the ceiling. Probably not a good idea, but still legally possible.
Visual approaches at a towered field are impractical with a ceiling lower than the MIA + 500' or visibility less than about seven miles.
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Generally true, but not absolutely, and those conditions are certainly not a legal requirement.
 
TMetzinger said:
Which missed approach procedure would you select?
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Whichever one happened to work best for me at the moment. Figuring that things aren't going exactly how I'd like it which is how I ended up magically placed in this scenario (I agree that avoiding it is best -- I'm just playing along here for the fun of it) I'd try to at least keep myself out of the trees.

Since I'm still technically IFR traffic all of the missed approaches are going to be held clear in case of lost comms and I am guaranteed that there is no conflicting traffic, I'd choose a missed approach, and fly it. Doesn't matter which one. All are available. Chances are you briefed yourself for an approach, including the missed. Roll with it.

I'm not sure there's any alternative :dunno:
 
gismo said:
Careful, you might be starting an argument:nono: :D
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Yeah -- and personally, I tell my IR trainees that they're probably wasting their time thinking about a visual approach if the weather is less than 2000-2500 ceiling and 5-7 miles vis.
 
thomascannon said:
Whichever one happened to work best for me at the moment. Figuring that things aren't going exactly how I'd like it which is how I ended up magically placed in this scenario (I agree that avoiding it is best -- I'm just playing along here for the fun of it) I'd try to at least keep myself out of the trees.

Since I'm still technically IFR traffic all of the missed approaches are going to be held clear in case of lost comms and I am guaranteed that there is no conflicting traffic, I'd choose a missed approach, and fly it. Doesn't matter which one. All are available. Chances are you briefed yourself for an approach, including the missed. Roll with it.

I'm not sure there's any alternative :dunno:
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The preferred alternatives are not getting into this trap in the first place and barring that, remaining clear of clouds while extricating yourself. If there was a large enough hole to get down to pattern alt, you ought to be able to go right back up through the same break in the clouds unless there are multiple layers moving in different directions. In any case I can't see any reason to accept and attempt a visual approach unless it was obvious you'd be able to make it down without bumping into a cloud.
 
AdamZ said:
Pilot is on an IR flight plan and above a solid under-cast. As the pilot approaches the destination airport a class Delta, The under-cast breaks up but the ceiling is still scattered to broken.

Approach advises pilot to report airport in sight. Pilot sees airport and advises airport in sight.

Approach clears pilot for visual approach and instructs pilot to contact tower. Tower instructs pilot to report midfield downwind. Pilot chops and drops and enters pattern still squawking IFR code. But once at TPA realizes they cannot fly pattern without flying through a cloud or two at TPA that would cause them to loose sight of field.

Does Pilot, fly normal pattern and fly through clouds in pattern? Does pilot deviate from pattern by going above or below TPA or around cloud? Advise tower?

Entire pattern is not flown through clouds just a segment. What to do?
Click to expand...

1) Don't EVER "fly through clouds in the pattern." You're not on an IAP, you have no navigation, you're supposed to be VISUAL on a visual approach even though it's an IFR procedure.

2) If you don't KNOW that you can keep the airport in sight and the other requirements for a visual approach throughout the approach, do not accept a visual approach. Not sure if this is true everywhere, but I'm generally asked if I want the visual before getting cleared for it. If they just gave it to me and I wasn't sure if I'd be able to complete it as a visual approach safely and legally, I'd simply say "unable visual approach" and ask for a different approach.

3) Another thing that you might be able to use in this situation is a contact approach. You'll still need to fly around that cloud, though.
 
roncachamp said:
What's on the ATIS WRT weather and approaches in use? Approaching the destination airport our intrepid aviator should be at or near the MIA. If there's a solid undercast at that altitude a visual approach is not an option.
Click to expand...


Good question. ATIS would report Scattered somewhere just above TPA and visual what ever the number is they are using.
 
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