Visit from an FAA "Geographic Inspector"

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KTMeyer

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Wickenburg, AZ & Chester, CA
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Display name:
Ken Meyer
I got an odd phone message today on my home phone in Arizona. As it happens, I'm in Hawaii, but the message reached me by email.

The message was from a guy at our local FSDO, saying he was going to be up in our rural area of Arizona today and was wondering if we'd be available so he could stop by "and take a look at your aircraft."

We called him back and told him we're away for a couple of weeks and arranged to call him on our return. He mentioned something about being an FAA geographic inspector, saying that he just wanted to introduce himself, tell us what he does, and see how we're maintaining our plane.

In 24 years of owning airplanes, this is the first time the FAA has called and asked to come visit :confused:. Any insight?

Ken
 
New concept to me for anyone other than an operator like a flight school or charter outfit. Is that you? Otherwise, all I can think of is, "Is there a problem, officer?"

As for the "geographic" business, the FSDO usually designates certain areas within their District which will be covered by a particular Inspector in the office. That provides continuity for certified operators so they don't have to deal with a different Inspector every week. It also provides familiarity with the airport and its environment for the Inspector. When a new Inspector is assigned to an area, it would not be unexpected for him/her to stop by and meet all the operators in that area just so s/he can put names to faces.
 
Hmmmm, have you ticked off a mechanic who reported you for doing 'unapproved maintenance'? Only thing that sounds like it would fit the bill.
 
Don't call him back. Really you have no duty to and calling him is the same as inviting a vampire into your house.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Don't call him back. Really you have no duty to and calling him is the same as inviting a vampire into your house.
Click to expand...
Getting on your local Inspector's bad side is not the way to a long and happy flying career. Coffee and doughnuts are a much better idea. Then listen to find out what the story is before you dig yourself a hole out of which you may have a lot of trouble crawling.
 
Henning said:
Hmmmm, have you ticked off a mechanic who reported you for doing 'unapproved maintenance'? Only thing that sounds like it would fit the bill.
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Nothing like that; indeed the plane just came out of it's 24-month inspection.

It's an Eclipse, and though we operate under Part 91, we have an RVSM manual and an MEL, nominally approved by the local FSDO (it's been our only interaction with them to date).

I'm wondering if we're somehow in the gray zone of an "almost-135" operation because we have RVSM and MEL paperwork with them; maybe they simply stuck us in their list of inspectees.

I'm also wondering what they want to inspect. We got almost no useful information from the inspector over the phone. It can't be a ramp check per se--we won't have been flying the day they check us, so some of the things on a ramp check wouldn't even be applicable (medical, for instance--you don't have to have a current medical to park an airplane in your hangar).

It's an oddity; I'm hoping somebody has heard of it before. In any event, "your tax dollars at work" ;).

Ken
 
KTMeyer said:
I got an odd phone message today on my home phone in Arizona. As it happens, I'm in Hawaii, but the message reached me by email.

The message was from a guy at our local FSDO, saying he was going to be up in our rural area of Arizona today and was wondering if we'd be available so he could stop by "and take a look at your aircraft."

We called him back and told him we're away for a couple of weeks and arranged to call him on our return. He mentioned something about being an FAA geographic inspector, saying that he just wanted to introduce himself, tell us what he does, and see how we're maintaining our plane.

In 24 years of owning airplanes, this is the first time the FAA has called and asked to come visit :confused:. Any insight?

Ken
Click to expand...

Are you a A&P?, IA?

Hi, I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to help.

ask the questions,

who are you?
what is this about?
why me?

Be polite, don't get verbal diarrhea, and volunteer info that was not asked for.

When you are asked to sign ANYTHING have your Aviation Lawyer look it over, if it is not correct in every way don't sign it. If it is wrong the chase back to FSDO may not be worth their troubles.
 
Ron Levy said:
Getting on your local Inspector's bad side is not the way to a long and happy flying career. Coffee and doughnuts are a much better idea.
Click to expand...

As long as it's off site I think that's a fine idea... I'm happy to bribe any official for favors that willing to accept it. Digging around in my airplane beyond what I'm legally required to allow? I know from personal experience that's a very bad idea. You just don't know what the agenda is.

These are government workers whose duty is law enforcement... don't ever forget that.
 
Twice I have been asked if I was going to be in my hangar today? when I responded yes, they would say thanks we may need a place to warm up.

They aren't always on the hunt. I would trust my PMI with the keys to my hangar. I know they would not take me up on that, because they do not want the responsibility for my property.
 
Ron Levy said:
Getting on your local Inspector's bad side is not the way to a long and happy flying career. Coffee and doughnuts are a much better idea. Then listen to find out what the story is before you dig yourself a hole out of which you may have a lot of trouble crawling.
Click to expand...

How can declining that kind of request cause any problems except where the Inspector outright lied about the purpose of the visit or that FAA Inspectors are inevitably petty and will abuse their authority when they feel personally rebuffed?

Basically I'd like to understand the background on which you base your advise that doesn't involve one of those two possibilities.
 
KTMeyer said:
Nothing like that; indeed the plane just came out of it's 24-month inspection.

It's an Eclipse, and though we operate under Part 91, we have an RVSM manual and an MEL, nominally approved by the local FSDO (it's been our only interaction with them to date).

I'm wondering if we're somehow in the gray zone of an "almost-135" operation because we have RVSM and MEL paperwork with them; maybe they simply stuck us in their list of inspectees.
Click to expand...
That seems about right.

I'm also wondering what they want to inspect. We got almost no useful information from the inspector over the phone. It can't be a ramp check per se--we won't have been flying the day they check us, so some of the things on a ramp check wouldn't even be applicable (medical, for instance--you don't have to have a current medical to park an airplane in your hangar).
Click to expand...
Probably the paperwork they approved -- making sure it's all still correct for the airplane as it is.

It's an oddity; I'm hoping somebody has heard of it before. In any event, "your tax dollars at work" ;).
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Yes, I've heard of Inspectors performing routine surveillance on operators working under specific FAA approvals. They most definitely have the authority to do that, and stonewalling them will only make them wonder what you're hiding and thus encourage them to dig a lot deeper than they are probably planning to do.

Like I said -- coffee and doughnuts on the table with the paperwork they probably want to check. Just tell the Inspector you'd like to know what to have ready for examination -- that will tell you what they're trying to do. As I said before, since you're operating per some FSDO approvals, they probably just want to make sure everything is like the paperwork says.
 
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KTMeyer said:
Just a pilot, so is my wife. It's a Part 91 operation, and we have had no reason we can think of why the FAA would suddenly be interested in us.

Ken
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More than likely it is simply a meet and greet. still my advise above applies.

Do not offer the log books until they ask to see them, and then ask if they see any discrepancies there to please point them out so you can have the proper person correct them.

We all know they can nit pick a nat's as-, but most won't unless they really want you for some thing.
 
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KTMeyer said:
I'm also wondering what they want to inspect. We got almost no useful information from the inspector over the phone. It can't be a ramp check per se--we won't have been flying the day they check us,
Click to expand...

Something is up. It very well may be nothing... or not even related to you but once you drop your shorts there is no going back.

Lock your hanger. Also make sure you don't have a prevision in your lease that allows them to let in local law enforcement.

If they had a legitimate reason to inspect your aircraft in a locked building they will get a warrant and it will spell out the reason. In the mean time you'll need to provide any other paperwork they request. Sign up for the AOPA legal plan.
 
bbchien said:
This is a maintainence ramp check. Prepare carefully.
Click to expand...

Since the plane just came out of it's 24 month check, and I'm assuming since he is a Pt91 pilot he's not doing this himself, they may be looking at whomever is doing his maintenance. Then again, they may be looking to see if he is really Pt91 or Pt 134.5
 
Common sense. Call them back, ask how you can help them help you, and I'm sure they'll tell you why they're visiting and what they'll need to see.

Unless they suspect you ARE hiding something, they've got no reason to be anything other than polite.

All this FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) from folks like Greg and others makes me wonder if they've ever really dealt with many FSDO folks, through ramp checks or checkrides or other inspections. Maybe we're just lucky here at the Washington FSDO but the only people I've heard complain about the inspectors were folks who were actually knowingly violating regs.
 
TMetzinger said:
Common sense. Call them back, ask how you can help them help you, and I'm sure they'll tell you why they're visiting and what they'll need to see.
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My wife spoke with him--asked him what he wanted. He said he wanted to introduce himself, let us know what he does and "see how you're maintaining your plane." It was the latter part of the comment that caught my attention because it seemed a little open-ended.

Ken
 
KTMeyer said:
My wife spoke with him--asked him what he wanted. He said he wanted to introduce himself, let us know what he does and "see how you're maintaining your plane." It was the latter part of the comment that caught my attention because it seemed a little open-ended.

Ken
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Ah, in that case, you respond with "It's just back from XXX inspection. Are their any documents you'd like to review when you visit?"

And he'll probably ask to see the logs and maybe the paperwork related to the MEL. Since you did ask for some additional stuff from them (RVSM, MEL), he's probably going to check to make sure that your airplane is still appropriately equipped AND that the maintenance on the items relevant to those things has been done properly.

I'm pretty sure I've heard of similar stuff done to folks with CAT II authorizations for their airplane. I'd almost swear Dick Collins or McClellan did a story on getting the authorization and the follow on surveillance.
 
No surprise here, but beyond a few pleasantries, the FAA would look at nothing of mine without some pretty serious justification from a judge.

A plane not operating in the NAS is no different than your car in your garage. They can ask, but you don't have to submit. It's not North Korea(yet). I'd give them all the coffee and donuts they can handle in the lobby of my FBO/office, but unless they are serving a warrant, they are not looking at the plane. Books, records, etc are a different thing, and I realize the FAA has broad power to look at record keeping, but no way no how is anyone going to look at the machinery.

I can imagine what some of you 'what can it hurt?' kind of people would be like with the staties knocking on your door wanting to inspect your Ferrari. 'Sure - go ahead, take it all apart. Want some cream and sugar in your coffee or do you take it black. Those carbon fiber parts? Ah - just leave them off, we'll deal with it later, maybe.'

idiots
 
If you have any special maintenance stuff with them they will check up on you from time to time
 
docmirror said:
No surprise here, but beyond a few pleasantries, the FAA would look at nothing of mine without some pretty serious justification from a judge.

A plane not operating in the NAS is no different than your car in your garage. They can ask, but you don't have to submit. It's not North Korea(yet). I'd give them all the coffee and donuts they can handle in the lobby of my FBO/office, but unless they are serving a warrant, they are not looking at the plane. Books, records, etc are a different thing, and I realize the FAA has broad power to look at record keeping, but no way no how is anyone going to look at the machinery.

I can imagine what some of you 'what can it hurt?' kind of people would be like with the staties knocking on your door wanting to inspect your Ferrari. 'Sure - go ahead, take it all apart. Want some cream and sugar in your coffee or do you take it black. Those carbon fiber parts? Ah - just leave them off, we'll deal with it later, maybe.'

idiots
Click to expand...
That's NOT true if you enter into a different agreement with the FSDO. For all we know the paperwork for the OP's RVSM approval specifies follow-on surveillance.

The OP may be free to say, "sorry, you can't look at my airplane". At which point he gets a letter revoking his RVSM and MEL.
 
I had a ramp check a year or so ago, the FSDO guy called me on my cell phone from the FBO to tell me he had done an exterior inspection of the airplane, it was on the ramp ready for us to get there. He pointed out a hole in the cowling that I knew was there and a loose screw in the tail cone. I arrived with the family 20 minutes later and he walked up, introduced himself, gave me his card and pointed out what he had noticed. That was the end of the conversation. Could not have been a more pleasant experience. :D And when I need to talk to the FSDO about a certificate of airworthiness, he was the guy that answered the phone and made it very simple. :D So, they aren't all out for blood. ;)
 
TMetzinger said:
All this FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) from folks like Greg and others makes me wonder if they've ever really dealt with many FSDO folks, through ramp checks or checkrides or other inspections.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that most FSDO folks are great, and I generally wouldn't have issues talking with them. However, my one experience with them, while a student pilot, does make me think twice.

Some guys stopped me as I was leaving the FBO after a lesson. This guy rapidly asked me questions without identifying himself: If I was a student, if I flew today, if we did some stalls, and how high up we did them. I'm a little slow, but did eventually figure out who they were and what they were up to. Then they went on to do some checking at the FBO. It felt like a pushy, sneaky, gotcha kind of thing to me.
 
TMetzinger said:
Common sense. Call them back, ask how you can help them help you, and I'm sure they'll tell you why they're visiting and what they'll need to see.

Unless they suspect you ARE hiding something, they've got no reason to be anything other than polite.

All this FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) from folks like Greg and others makes me wonder if they've ever really dealt with many FSDO folks, through ramp checks or checkrides or other inspections. Maybe we're just lucky here at the Washington FSDO but the only people I've heard complain about the inspectors were folks who were actually knowingly violating regs.
Click to expand...

I have. And they can be very pleasant people. But it can go south very quickly. After my accident they had my airplane and logbooks for 2 weeks. Gave them back to me... said I shouldn't expect any issues (i.e. no 709 or issues on the airplane). Yet in the following week, speaking with the NTSB, I pointed out a few shortcomings in the investigation and a theory I had as to the cause of the accident. Enough so that he wanted to come (since he was in the area) and look at my theory. He asked for written permission to enter my hanger, which I gave to him for the express purpose of confirming my theory. I was out of town.

Problem is, unknown to me the FAA wanted to come with him and "observe". The FAA guy... the same guy who had had unfettered access to my airplane and logs for 2 weeks was back in my hanger without my permission and looking for problems with the airframe. And he found two. A tip tank from a PA32-300 on my PA32-260 and "bondo" covering the leading edge of my wing. And it cost me time and stress documenting the fact that it's the same part number on the 300 vs. the 260 and that I had a legal and documented STC for the "bondo" which was a wing smoothing mod from Laminar flow systems. Of course, the former any AP could get out of the Piper parts manual and the later was in front of their face for 2 weeks in my log books they held.

Oh, and did I mention I got a 709 because of that visit? The fuel readings he took 4 weeks after the accident didn't match the ones he took a few days after the accident.

Now, granted, I'm sure I ****ed him off whining to the NTSB but the fact is it happened. These are people that have the force of law behind them and legally can lie to you.

Moral of the story to me? Talk to my attorney. I'm done cooperating in any fashion with the government when it can potentially hurt me.
 
F01LA said:
I'm sure that most FSDO folks are great, and I generally wouldn't have issues talking with them. However, my one experience with them, while a student pilot, does make me think twice.

Some guys stopped me as I was leaving the FBO after a lesson. This guy rapidly asked me questions without identifying himself: If I was a student, if I flew today, if we did some stalls, and how high up we did them. I'm a little slow, but did eventually figure out who they were and what they were up to. Then they went on to do some checking at the FBO. It felt like a pushy, sneaky, gotcha kind of thing to me.
Click to expand...

If you were a student, none of the answers would matter to you.
 
Ron Levy said:
As for the "geographic" business, the FSDO usually designates certain areas within their District which will be covered by a particular Inspector in the office. That provides continuity for certified operators so they don't have to deal with a different Inspector every week. It also provides familiarity with the airport and its environment for the Inspector. When a new Inspector is assigned to an area, it would not be unexpected for him/her to stop by and meet all the operators in that area just so s/he can put names to faces.
Click to expand...

Geographic Inspectors have been around for a long time. Lately the only Geographics were assigned to the Air Carrier division and not to GA. Since GA is short on Inspectors they are now assigning Geographics at FSDO (This was discussed before I left the Agency)

The rest of your assumption is correct, sounds like the Inspector just wants to get to know the operators in his assigned area. Nothing to be alarmed about.
 
TMetzinger said:
That's NOT true if you enter into a different agreement with the FSDO. For all we know the paperwork for the OP's RVSM approval specifies follow-on surveillance.

The OP may be free to say, "sorry, you can't look at my airplane". At which point he gets a letter revoking his RVSM and MEL.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the OP know that as part of the certification? For anyone with any plane with RVSM, is this true that the FAA can expand their surveillance arbitrarily?

Maybe you're right, but unless I see it defined, it's still a 'no'.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Don't call him back. Really you have no duty to and calling him is the same as inviting a vampire into your house.
Click to expand...

Jeff K said:
^^^ What he said ^^^ I see no upside for you here... if it's in a locked hanger I'm going to be looking for a warrant to do anything beyond what the FAR's require me to do.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2011/January/1/Pilot-Counsel.aspx
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Norman said:
Sounds a bit like a fishing expedition.
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Jim Logajan said:
How can declining that kind of request cause any problems except where the Inspector outright lied about the purpose of the visit or that FAA Inspectors are inevitably petty and will abuse their authority when they feel personally rebuffed?

Basically I'd like to understand the background on which you base your advise that doesn't involve one of those two possibilities.
Click to expand...

Jeff K said:
Something is up. It very well may be nothing... or not even related to you but once you drop your shorts there is no going back.

Lock your hanger. Also make sure you don't have a prevision in your lease that allows them to let in local law enforcement.

If they had a legitimate reason to inspect your aircraft in a locked building they will get a warrant and it will spell out the reason. In the mean time you'll need to provide any other paperwork they request. Sign up for the AOPA legal plan.
Click to expand...

John Baker said:
"We're your government, we are here to help....trust us."

-John
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KTMeyer said:
My wife spoke with him--asked him what he wanted. He said he wanted to introduce himself, let us know what he does and "see how you're maintaining your plane." It was the latter part of the comment that caught my attention because it seemed a little open-ended.

Ken
Click to expand...


The Inspector has a work program. Part of his work program is to become familiar with his assigned operators. All of this paranoia is amusing.

Simply talk to the man, ask him what he may need to see, have some coffee (or maybe lunch) with him and build a contact in the office. The time will come when you may need some assistance and it would be nice to have his cell number for a quick call.

In my time as an Inspector I would enjoy stopping in on my operators and hangar chat. It was a great way to get out of the office and go be around airplanes for a day.
 
Jeff K said:
I have. And they can be very pleasant people. But it can go south very quickly. After my accident they had my airplane and logbooks for 2 weeks. Gave them back to me... said I shouldn't expect any issues (i.e. no 709 or issues on the airplane). Yet in the following week, speaking with the NTSB, I pointed out a few shortcomings in the investigation and a theory I had as to the cause of the accident. Enough so that he wanted to come (since he was in the area) and look at my theory. He asked for written permission to enter my hanger, which I gave to him for the express purpose of confirming my theory. I was out of town.

Problem is, unknown to me the FAA wanted to come with him and "observe". The FAA guy... the same guy who had had unfettered access to my airplane and logs for 2 weeks was back in my hanger without my permission and looking for problems with the airframe. And he found two. A tip tank from a PA32-300 on my PA32-260 and "bondo" covering the leading edge of my wing. And it cost me time and stress documenting the fact that it's the same part number on the 300 vs. the 260 and that I had a legal and documented STC for the "bondo" which was a wing smoothing mod from Laminar flow systems. Of course, the former any AP could get out of the Piper parts manual and the later was in front of their face for 2 weeks in my log books they held.

Oh, and did I mention I got a 709 because of that visit? The fuel readings he took 4 weeks after the accident didn't match the ones he took a few days after the accident.

Now, granted, I'm sure I ****ed him off whining to the NTSB but the fact is it happened. These are people that have the force of law behind them and legally can lie to you.

Moral of the story to me? Talk to my attorney. I'm done cooperating in any fashion with the government when it can potentially hurt me.
Click to expand...


As with most stories there is usually more here than meets the eye. I would like to see the story from the other side.

Sorry, after doing this stuff for a living I'm ver suspect of one sided stories.
 
The local FSDO had two people go over my plane and another person reviewing all of my records, then a fourth grilling me about everything and anything, even asking about each of my flight instructors that were in my log book, then pulling up their records. I had all this done a few years ago prior to my SODA, which turned out to be second only to a check ride, several hours on the ground and an hour in the air.

I and my airplane passed all of that with flying colors, the only thing they could find was a small crack that had gone past the stop drill hole about a quarter of an inch in my right wingtip.

It turned out that my misfortune was related to some clown flying his Piper into an IRS building a few hours before I got there, at least when I saw it on the news that night I figured that is what it was all about. It did seem to me that they were going overboard looking for a way to nail me, all of them nice and pleasant as they tightened the screws.

-John
 
TMetzinger said:
That's NOT true if you enter into a different agreement with the FSDO. For all we know the paperwork for the OP's RVSM approval specifies follow-on surveillance.

The OP may be free to say, "sorry, you can't look at my airplane". At which point he gets a letter revoking his RVSM and MEL.
Click to expand...

If an Inspector issued an RVSM letter for an airplane and operator it goes into the database and this operator is "assigned" to an Inspector.

Typically the Inspector just wants to do a follow up once the letter is issued or he may have assigned in his work program a surveillance to insure once the letter is issued the operator has complied with the letter. Typically a 10 minute look see and he can close the PTRS as complete.

These type "inspections" allow the Inspector to get out in the field and away from the office. For me it was like a paid day of airport bumming and meeting fellow pilots.

Take a positive approach with the guy, buy him lunch and hangar chat, make a friend.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The Inspector has a work program. Part of his work program is to become familiar with his assigned operators. All of this paranoia is amusing.

Simply talk to the man, ask him what he may need to see, have some coffee (or maybe lunch) with him and build a contact in the office. The time will come when you may need some assistance and it would be nice to have his cell number for a quick call.

In my time as an Inspector I would enjoy stopping in on my operators and hangar chat. It was a great way to get out of the office and go be around airplanes for a day.
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What's "amusing" is at least two of the commentator's here saying don't worry be happy have connections to the FAA.

And you may be the nicest guy in the world.... but you can take my certificate. Excuse me if I'm going to be on my defensive... but I've got good reason to be that way. Your agency plays by it's own rules... one need look no further then the Oshkosh debacle if the personal testimony's don't mean anything. I'm sorry... it's not personal, but I don't trust your ex-employer.

Bottom line. The FAA called the OP out of the blue wanting to look at his maintenance records. That's a bit more then coffee.
 
docmirror said:
No surprise here, but beyond a few pleasantries, the FAA would look at nothing of mine without some pretty serious justification from a judge.

A plane not operating in the NAS is no different than your car in your garage. They can ask, but you don't have to submit. It's not North Korea(yet). I'd give them all the coffee and donuts they can handle in the lobby of my FBO/office, but unless they are serving a warrant, they are not looking at the plane. Books, records, etc are a different thing, and I realize the FAA has broad power to look at record keeping, but no way no how is anyone going to look at the machinery.

I can imagine what some of you 'what can it hurt?' kind of people would be like with the staties knocking on your door wanting to inspect your Ferrari. 'Sure - go ahead, take it all apart. Want some cream and sugar in your coffee or do you take it black. Those carbon fiber parts? Ah - just leave them off, we'll deal with it later, maybe.'

idiots
Click to expand...

If they really want to see your airplane all that is needed is a LOI (letter of investigation) specifying a time and date to see the airplane.

If you fail to comply they can revoke your airworthiness certificate until you do and possibly your pilot certificate. Carefully read 44709.
 
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