Video: FAA resolves Kings issue

John made a few good points, but very few.

But for the rest of the self serving 16 minutes they both came off to me as needing a good cheese to go with their whines.

"oh, I'm only 5'-6" tall...I did't pose any threat whatsoever...booo...hooo"

"my shoulders hurt...I shouldn't be handcuffed...booo...hooo"

This exact scenario happens thousands of times every day on the streets and I really don't think that we, as pilots, are any better than, or should we expect to be treated any differently than, any person walking down any inner city street.

Yeah, it was a mistake. And yeah, it was mistake that should have never happened, especially since it happened before to this plane. But, man. GA sure seems to be taking a self serving better than thou attitude over this event.
 
That's cold, Tim. The cops were just stupid here with the guns and the cuffs, and their stupidity could have lead to a bad outcome. But the whole country is getting stupid, so the cops actions shouldn't be a surprise I guess.
 
Ohhh I'm a scared stupid cop so I'm going to felony stop everybody anytime I don't understand the situation.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Ohhh I'm a scared stupid cop so I'm going to felony stop everybody anytime I don't understand the situation.
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You were shot down in one thread, and you're going to come to another and repeat the same bull****?

Weak sauce.
 
The police had to have spoken to the tower controller for him to guide the plane to a specific point on the airfield.

Why not verify type.......seems they were already talking to someone that knew a lot more than they did...
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Weak sauce.
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Correct sauce.

The cops, in this case, were afraid of something they had no knowledge of (but had at least an hour if not more to get some cursory knowledge of).

It was a controlled airport for god's sake. Who steals an airplane and flies to a controlled airport on a flight plan?
 
The newspaper and TV reports describe many crimes as "bold" including the kid who stole all the airplanes.
SkyHog said:
Correct sauce.

The cops, in this case, were afraid of something they had no knowledge of (but had at least an hour if not more to get some cursory knowledge of).

It was a controlled airport for god's sake. Who steals an airplane and flies to a controlled airport on a flight plan?
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Obi Heed Kenobi said:
You were shot down in one thread, and you're going to come to another and repeat the same bull****?

Weak sauce.
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Yeah, and why wouldn't he? Very few people here make convincing arguments that would prompt me to change my mind, and cursing probably doesn't have a place in an effective argument. I'd imagine it's a similar situation for him.
 
timwinters said:
John made a few good points, but very few.

But for the rest of the self serving 16 minutes they both came off to me as needing a good cheese to go with their whines.

"oh, I'm only 5'-6" tall...I did't pose any threat whatsoever...booo...hooo"

"my shoulders hurt...I shouldn't be handcuffed...booo...hooo"

This exact scenario happens thousands of times every day on the streets and I really don't think that we, as pilots, are any better than, or should we expect to be treated any differently than, any person walking down any inner city street.

Yeah, it was a mistake. And yeah, it was mistake that should have never happened, especially since it happened before to this plane. But, man. GA sure seems to be taking a self serving better than thou attitude over this event.
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Sorry Tim, but we must have been listening to two different interviews. The one I heard sounded like an innocent man who was falsely accused, warning people to comply with LE's directives lest the wrath of the powerful come down upon them. Sounds about right to me!
 
gprellwitz said:
Sorry Tim, but we must have been listening to two different interviews. The one I heard sounded like an innocent man who was falsely accused, warning people to comply with LE's directives lest the wrath of the powerful come down upon them. Sounds about right to me!
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I guess so, Grant, because the one I watched was smug, arrogant and egocentric. The part where Warren started prodding John about how slight in stature he and Martha are was really laughable. Like all bad guys are 6'-6", 250#???

It's video like this that make me understand why much of the general public thinks pilots are snobby elitists.
 
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150man said:
That's cold, Tim. The cops were just stupid here with the guns and the cuffs, and their stupidity could have lead to a bad outcome. But the whole country is getting stupid, so the cops actions shouldn't be a surprise I guess.
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Santa Barbara cops used to be pretty laid back... then 9/11 happened and they became the Hitler Youth. :rolleyes2:
 
School admins are suspending little kids for pointing their finger at someone in the shape of a gun. Ever play cops and robbers, anyone? I'm saying there's something similar to a school principle who would do that, and cuffing the King's and sticking them in the back of a police car for half an hour. No common sense anymore.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Ohhh I'm a scared stupid cop so I'm going to felony stop everybody anytime I don't understand the situation.
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That ^^^ right there is kind of ignorant and totally foolish. They understood the situation quite well - a federal agency (EPIC) told them that particular airplane with that particular N number was stolen. So they had a confirmation of a stolen plane, a felony. So they got everyone secured as safely as possible until they could clear everything up. That was smart.

There might have been other ways to handle it - but none of them would have been as safe as this one. I fully intended to go home after every shift and did absolutely everything I could to ensure that outcome, to the best of my abilities.

Greg, what do YOU do for a living? I'm just asking...
 
etsisk said:
They understood the situation quite well
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They understood a very small part of the situation, and their laziness failed to have them perform the basic steps to get the rest of the information that was right there for them:

1. Talk to the control tower
2. Talk to the FAA
3. Look up the tail number on the FAA's website (in case we're dealing with officers that don't like to talk to people)

Compare to car stops for suspected stolen:

1. Talk to the dispatcher (give plate number, get a car type back)
2. Look up the license plate number....

Perhaps having a little respect for the falsely accused would have helped too. "I'm sorry" goes a long ways.
 
timwinters said:
I guess so, Grant, because the one I watched was smug, arrogant and egocentric. The part where Warren started prodding John about how slight in stature he and Martha are was really laughable. Like all bad guys are 6'-6", 250#???

It's video like this that make me understand why much of the general public thinks pilots are snobby elitists.
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I guess I didn't see it that way. While the interviewer seemed ... different, I thought John was a class act trying to be cheerful at a crappy situation. Frankly, I think I would have been a lot more ****ed than he was. I've trained with LEOs and competed in PPC competitions with LEOs, and too often for my comfort I've seen LEOs mishandle their weapons, leave their fingers on the trigger when not intending to shoot, etc. (Note I'm not making an indictment of all LEOs, but simply observing that while they are often trained much better than civilians, I've seen more than a handful that train at the minimum annual level and make amateur mistakes.) It sure appears to have been a major, dangerous overreaction to me from where I'm sitting.

John did all right in my book.
 
If I would have been in the situation the Kings were, I would have thought of this video (there are plenty others):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk

:wink2:

I think that one could expect from the police that they do their homework before they bring taxpayers into such a uncomfortable and potentially lethal situation.
 
etsisk said:
That ^^^ right there is kind of ignorant and totally foolish. They understood the situation quite well - a federal agency (EPIC) told them that particular airplane with that particular N number was stolen. So they had a confirmation of a stolen plane, a felony. So they got everyone secured as safely as possible until they could clear everything up. That was smart.

There might have been other ways to handle it - but none of them would have been as safe as this one. I fully intended to go home after every shift and did absolutely everything I could to ensure that outcome, to the best of my abilities.

Greg, what do YOU do for a living? I'm just asking...
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I have a massive distrust of law enforcement in general (sorry Tom, Mark, Max, and the other good cops on here - both current and retired), but I still have to agree with Tom on this. If due diligence requires that you have the trial prior to the arrest, the judicial system would be even less effective than it already is.

Mistaken arrests suck if you're the person getting arrested, but it does happen, and that's an unfortunated side effect of trying to keep those who actually do commit crimes off the streets.
 
That AOPA interviewer really creeps me out...
 
German guy said:
If I would have been in the situation the Kings were, I would have thought of this video (there are plenty others):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk

:wink2:

I think that one could expect from the police that they do their homework before they bring taxpayers into such a uncomfortable and potentially lethal situation.
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That creeps me out almost as much as the fact that I can't find anything about that officer losing her job.

Dollars to doughnuts (lol!) she was found to be acting properly by the oh so fair review process that doesn't involve any civilians.
 
The accidental discharge thing reminds me of something that happened in high school.

A big fight was to take place after school, between two bullies. Everyone met up to see the fight happen at a park off campus. During the fight, our school police officer, APD/APS Officer Norlander (now retired, I'd bet), came upon us all from the other side of the park. He pulled his gun, pointed it at the large group of people standing around watching the fight and proceeded to run at us, shouting "Freeze!"

Well, most people ran away, but a few of us that realized the danger he put us in instead ducked behind our cars.

The firearm did not discharge, but it would not be that far fetched to see it happen, since he was running at us on uneven grass with his finger ON THE TRIGGER.

A group of us reported the incident to both school and APD officials, and both simply responded that we would have to sign statements that we were at the fight, and therefore we would be suspended from school if the report was filed. APD threatened us with truancy, despite the fact that this happened after school.

I was one suspension away from expulsion (ditching). Guess who never got in trouble...
 
etsisk said:
That ^^^ right there is kind of ignorant and totally foolish. They understood the situation quite well - a federal agency (EPIC) told them that particular airplane with that particular N number was stolen. So they had a confirmation of a stolen plane, a felony. So they got everyone secured as safely as possible until they could clear everything up. That was smart.

There might have been other ways to handle it - but none of them would have been as safe as this one. I fully intended to go home after every shift and did absolutely everything I could to ensure that outcome, to the best of my abilities.

Greg, what do YOU do for a living? I'm just asking...
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This should obviously be in the spin zone since folks are spinning it to suit their needs.:crazy:

Just one question, if it was really "confirmed" as a stolen aircraft then why was the aircraft not taken from the Kings? In other words, it wasn't really confirmed as stolen now was it? They really didn't understand the situation now did they? A confirmed report of a stolen plane does not equal confirmation that a plane is stolen. In one case you have confirmation of a report and in the other case you have confirmation of theft. Obviously some LEO folks need to learn the difference.

Since I'm here, another question: While you intend to go home after every shift do you also intend to ensure the rights of the individuals you "contact" are not infringed? Just asking a simple pointed question, officer, sir.
 
So this may have been an EPIC failure, but I haven't heard anyone question Cessna's role in this. They knew the plane's N-number was listed as stolen (via the previous incident), and they leased it out without ensuring the number was cleared from the system?

SkyHog said:
1. Talk to the control tower

Perhaps having a little respect for the falsely accused would have helped too. "I'm sorry" goes a long ways.
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Has it occurred to any of you guys condemning the cops that even if they had confirmed it was a 172 and not a 150 that the cops still don't know it's not stolen. What's more likely, that the entire stolen plane report is wrong, or that someone entered the wrong plane type in the report (we've already established that cops can't tell one plane from another)? They still have to go investigate and it's still possible they're dealing with plane thieves. So all they've managed to do is waste some time and create more uncertainty. I'd guess that would actually make things more dangerous.

And in the not unlikely event that it was stolen, any number of things could have gone wrong:
Cop: "Hey, is that plane over there a cessna 150?"
ATC: "You mean that plane over there full of armed drug dealers who just grabbed a hostage and took off while you were over here chatting with me instead of doing your job? That one? Yes it's a cessna 150. Why do you ask?"

The cops weren't out of line here. But yeah, they should have apologized.
 
Are some of y'all seriously stating that the cops should have looked up the N number online at the FAA dbase and should have checked the flight out on flightaware?

Let me ask ya - how many of y'all even KNEW that there was an FAA dbase available, prior to starting flying lessons? How many of y'all, prior to taking lessons, even heard of flightaware?? (and I'm not talking to the sim guys...)

EPIC should have done those things, for sure. But that wasn't something for the cops to do - they had confirmation from a govt source: EPIC. That's exactly the same thing as running the tag or confirming the stolen status with NCIC. I've said on the purple board that at the end, the supervisory officer should have spent as much time was was necessary explaining the situation and should have offered an honest apology. I still feel that way.
 
etsisk said:
Are some of y'all seriously stating that the cops should have looked up the N number online at the FAA dbase and should have checked the flight out on flightaware?

Let me ask ya - how many of y'all even KNEW that there was an FAA dbase available, prior to starting flying lessons? How many of y'all, prior to taking lessons, even heard of flightaware?? (and I'm not talking to the sim guys...)

EPIC should have done those things, for sure. But that wasn't something for the cops to do - they had confirmation from a govt source: EPIC. That's exactly the same thing as running the tag or confirming the stolen status with NCIC. I've said on the purple board that at the end, the supervisory officer should have spent as much time was was necessary explaining the situation and should have offered an honest apology. I still feel that way.
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The police officer visually confirmed the N-Number. He should have been able to, at the very least, called the FAA and spoken to them about it. Same as a license plate.

Anything is better than point a loaded gun at an innocent man.
 
SkyHog said:
The police officer visually confirmed the N-Number. He should have been able to, at the very least, called the FAA and spoken to them about it. Same as a license plate.

Anything is better than point a loaded gun at an innocent man.
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I'm curious. It's 10PM right now. How do I call the FAA? I'd like to discuss an issue with them before 11 PM.
 
SkyHog said:
The police officer visually confirmed the N-Number. He should have been able to, at the very least, called the FAA and spoken to them about it. Same as a license plate.
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There's nothing "same as a license plate" at all. The police don't call the DMV whenever there's someone pulled over.

Anything is better than point a loaded gun at an innocent man.
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Including someone dead?

It's also worth noting, as I've said until I'm blue in the face, that the ends neither justify nor negate the means.

In other words, actual innocence doesn't negate a stop, nor does actual guilt justify a stop.
 
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Obi Heed Kenobi said:
There's nothing "same as a license plate" at all. The police don't call the DMV whenever there's someone pulled over.

Including someone dead?

It's also worth noting, as I've said until I'm blue in the face, that the ends neither justify nor negate the means.

In other words, actual innocence doesn't negate a stop, nor does actual guilt justify a stop.
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Well...I guess there's a need to answer this, Dave, what's better. Dead innocent cop or dead innocent civilian?

As a civilian, I know the answer I'd choose.
 
jesse said:
I'm curious. It's 10PM right now. How do I call the FAA? I'd like to discuss an issue with them before 11 PM.
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I dunno. I'm not a cop. I would think there needs to be some way to communicate. If not, maybe the cops shouldn't be there harrassing an old man about a plane they have no business talking about.
 
SkyHog said:
Well...I guess there's a need to answer this, Dave, what's better. Dead innocent cop or dead innocent civilian?

As a civilian, I know the answer I'd choose.
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If you can point to an example of a cop *accidentally* killing a civilian in this kind of situation, I'd buy what you're saying. But you're going to be hard-pressed to find it.
 
SkyHog said:
I dunno. I'm not a cop. I would think there needs to be some way to communicate. If not, maybe the cops shouldn't be there harrassing an old man about a plane they have no business talking about.
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Well I seriously doubt there is an easy way for local police to get the FAA on the phone in the middle of the night. They were notified there was a stolen airplane and they did their best to respond. It could have been done better but it is what it was. No one was hurt. There are worse things going on every day.
 
etsisk said:
Are some of y'all seriously stating that the cops should have looked up the N number online at the FAA dbase and should have checked the flight out on flightaware?

Let me ask ya - how many of y'all even KNEW that there was an FAA dbase available, prior to starting flying lessons? How many of y'all, prior to taking lessons, even heard of flightaware?? (and I'm not talking to the sim guys...)

EPIC should have done those things, for sure. But that wasn't something for the cops to do - they had confirmation from a govt source: EPIC. That's exactly the same thing as running the tag or confirming the stolen status with NCIC. I've said on the purple board that at the end, the supervisory officer should have spent as much time was was necessary explaining the situation and should have offered an honest apology. I still feel that way.
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So,....EPIC is responsible and the local LE is not responsible for their own actions. Please understand that the average citizen is not particularly understanding of that position...or accepting of that position.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
If you can point to an example of a cop *accidentally* killing a civilian in this kind of situation, I'd buy what you're saying. But you're going to be hard-pressed to find it.
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You must have missed the BART shooting in San Francisco. Or the video published earlier in which an officer accidentally discharged her weapon at point blank range during a stop.

Google "police accidental shootings" and tell me who you'd rather see at the end of a fired weapon. Innocent civilian or person who voluntarily accepted the risk by applying for the job.
 
SkyHog said:
You must have missed the BART shooting in San Francisco. Or the video published earlier in which an officer accidentally discharged her weapon at point blank range during a stop.

Google "police accidental shootings" and tell me who you'd rather see at the end of a fired weapon. Innocent civilian or person who voluntarily accepted the risk by applying for the job.
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Were either of those "accidents," in that they were unintended?

An unfortunate result does not make an accident.
 
Clark1961 said:
So,....EPIC is responsible and the local LE is not responsible for their own actions. Please understand that the average citizen is not particularly understanding of that position...or accepting of that position.
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Then perhaps the average citizen should do something other than complain about it. Considering that nothing's been done about it in the last five decades or so, I'd say the average citizen is not particularly concerned about it.
 
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