VFR traffic under the approach

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, it finally happed to me, a fella was flying VFR right under the localizer D approach into San Diego
Gillespie as I was trying to decend down on the approach. I could see him on TIS and I was rapidly overtaking him. He was on the approach
VFR under the clouds. I got down to where he was 1,000 feet under me and So Cal gave me a traffic alert. So, how could he be 1,000 feet under clouds if I was still IFR? I held altitude and got in front of him, then, descended and broker out over the airport just as So Cal was giving me the missed instructions.

I mentioned this to tower when the pilot got into the traffic pattern, asked why a VFR pilot would get right under the approach on the approach path when ceilings were low and it would cause a missed approach.

Had flown all the way from Dallas, icing, lots of other challenges, then while decending down through rainstorms with a lot of bumps over the mountains, I can't get down to the minimum altitude.

So, be careful out there.

Best,

Dave

 

[bbchien]

In Cal, if you don't get caught, you were RIGHT is what you did and it's okey dokey. Just ask Willie Brown.

 

[roncachamp]

Well, it finally happed to me, a fella was flying VFR right under the localizer D approach into San Diego
Gillespie as I was trying to decend down on the approach. I could see him on TIS and I was rapidly overtaking him. He was on the approach
VFR under the clouds. I got down to where he was 1,000 feet under me and So Cal gave me a traffic alert. So, how could he be 1,000 feet under clouds if I was still IFR?

He doesn't have to be 1000 feet under clouds.

 

[sba55]

Well Dave, just how far below you was he? In any case, he probably wasn't expecting you to make the approach from 37,000' and 450 knots. That's quite an aggressive go-around attempt!

03:37PM 32.36 -116.73 422 20000 descending Los Angeles Center
03:37PM 32.33 -116.70 447 37000 climbing Southern California TRACON

 

[Dave Siciliano]

He doesn't have to be 1000 feet under clouds.

No he doesn't. But at 1,000 feet below me, I get a traffic alert (which was given by SoCal) and must arrest my descent or climb. He may be perfectly legal 500 feet below the deck, but any incoming IFR traffic won't be able to descend once he's below them.

Maybe the crud was bad and he didn't have other options, but it appeared he did. Sounded like he just had no idea what he was doing was affecting traffic coming in on the only approach being used from the east.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well Dave, just how far below you was he? In any case, he probably wasn't expecting you to make the approach from 37,000' and 450 knots. That's quite an aggressive go-around attempt!

03:37PM 32.36 -116.73 422 20000 descending Los Angeles Center
03:37PM 32.33 -116.70 447 37000 climbing Southern California TRACON

You lost me here. What are you looking at?

Best,

Dave

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, how could he be 1,000 feet under clouds if I was still IFR?

Dave,

It's 500 feet below, 1000 above.

Good thing for the TIS though. In-cockpit traffic is a great thing to have.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave,

It's 500 feet below, 1000 above.

Good thing for the TIS though. In-cockpit traffic is a great thing to have.

Yea, I bungled my wording Kent. He can legally be 500 under, but I get a traffic alert and instructions to avoid when he's 1,000 under me.

I didn't mention that he seemed to be right on the localizer following it in. So, he didn't momentarily pass under, he was ahead of me whilie I descended. While I was still IMC, I got the traffic alert from SoCal. He was right over SAMOS which is a step down on the Loc-D approach. Would have been very nice if he could have stayed a little right or left. He was doing about 90 knots according to SoCal. I was about 140. Even at blue line I couldn't have stayed behind him. This is a long, step down approach through the mountains. The Loc D channels in all the IFR traffic from the east.

Best,

Dave

 

[sba55]

You lost me here. What are you looking at?

Best,

Dave

Your flightaware track log..check out the last 5 minutes.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Your flightaware track log..check out the last 5 minutes.

Oh! I'll take a look.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[gprellwitz]

Sounds like he may have been VFR shooting as much of the practice approach as he could while staying legal (or just using the localizer to find the airport) and not thinking about the consequences to others. Legal and rude, ignorant, or self-centered.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I wonder it that's where radar coverage gets spotty? The approach at BARET was at 6,800 feet and things look reasonable up to there. Then, as one descend down through the mountains, at some point below 3,000, one is below radar coverage. But that still doesn't explain the crazy part.

Interesting! The plane performed wonderfully on this trip, but not THAT well! Trued out between 215 and 220 at FL200 at under 17gph per side but had a strong headwind.

Best,

Dave

 

[Steve]

That covers about 90% of the pilots I know.

Sounds like he may have been VFR shooting as much of the practice approach as he could while staying legal (or just using the localizer to find the airport) and not thinking about the consequences to others. Legal and rude, ignorant, or self-centered.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Sounds like he may have been VFR shooting as much of the practice approach as he could while staying legal (or just using the localizer to find the airport) and not thinking about the consequences to others. Legal and rude, ignorant, or self-centered.

Yea, a friend pointed out that he could have been using the Garmin extended centerline on his GPS. I'm not saying the fella did anything wrong, he just put a dampener on all instrument arrivals on that approach while he meandered in. Just a little left, right or lower could have kept the instrument folks flowing. He probably never knew I was there, but I did say something to tower when I was in the pattern so he could hear it. Just mentioned if would be nice if he didn't come in right down the arrival; that it really stopped IFR traffic. Maybe he'll think about it nexttime.

Best,

Dave

 

[KennyFlys]

Yea, a friend pointed out that he could have been using the Garmin extended centerline on his GPS. I'm not saying the fella did anything wrong, he just put a dampener on all instrument arrivals on that approach while he meandered in. Just a little left, right or lower could have kept the instrument folks flowing. He probably never knew I was there, but I did say something to tower when I was in the pattern so he could hear it. Just mentioned if would be nice if he didn't come in right down the arrival; that it really stopped IFR traffic. Maybe he'll think about it nexttime.

Best,

Dave

This reminds me of all those from San Antonio, Austin and other surrounding airports who go to San Marcos for practice ILS or other approaches... without talking to Austin Approach. It's a very good idea to be talking with someone, especially if it's IMC nearby or above you.

 

[roncachamp]

No he doesn't. But at 1,000 feet below me, I get a traffic alert (which was given by SoCal) and must arrest my descent or climb. He may be perfectly legal 500 feet below the deck, but any incoming IFR traffic won't be able to descend once he's below them.

Why not? He's VFR in Class E airspace, no separation is provided between VFR and IFR aircraft in Class E airspace. If I were in your position I certainly wouldn't choose to descend into him, but that's different than not being able to descend.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

How much IFR do you fly? When Approach gives you a traffic alert, advises you to climb and begins issuing missed instructions, do you follow their instructions? When the frequency is so busy you can't even get on to reply, do you just continue your descent?

Best,

Dave

 

[roncachamp]

How much IFR do you fly?

I assume you're responding to my last message, but since you provided no quoted material I can't be sure. If I'm butting in, I apologize.

To answer your question, I fly IFR very little these days.

When Approach gives you a traffic alert, advises you to climb and begins issuing missed instructions, do you follow their instructions? When the frequency is so busy you can't even get on to reply, do you just continue your descent?

You stated, "...any incoming IFR traffic won't be able to descend once he's below them." That is not correct and that was my only point. The pilot may CHOOSE not to descend, but he certainly CAN descend if he so chooses. A traffic advisory is NOT an instruction.

 

[KennyFlys]

If a controller is giving me a traffic alert and recommending a change in altitude and/or heading... I'm gonna follow it. Too often I can't see what the controller is seeing. I'm very appreciative of those calls indicating traffic behind me that will overtake me either over the top or underneath.

Sure, you don't have to follow a controller's words, especially in an urgent situation. But, out side of that where you've clearly been given priority I think it would be ill-advised not to.

 

[jtheune]

Dave;
one man's vfr approach is another mans extended final. How can you tell the difference?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Dave, wasn't he talking the the tower? Was he outside the Class D? I presume you hadn't been switched over to them yet?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave, wasn't he talking the the tower? Was he outside the Class D? I presume you hadn't been switched over to them yet?

Troy: He wasn't talking to approach or tower at that time. This was over SAMOS intersection just over seven miles from the end of the runway. That is the FAF on the approach and a step down fix. When I did the circle to land, he came up on tower. That's when I mentioned it would have been nice it he hadn't come right down the approach path underneath it. Just a bit right or left would have been a big help of IFR traffic.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave;
one man's vfr approach is another mans extended final. How can you tell the difference?

Nice to hear from you John. I'm not sure what you mean. Even at my home field, tower and approach try to keep VFR traffic off the IFR approach or well above or below.

Best,

Dave

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Troy: He wasn't talking to approach or tower at that time. This was over SAMOS intersection just over seven miles from the end of the runway. That is the FAF on the approach and a step down fix. When I did the circle to land, he came up on tower. That's when I mentioned it would have been nice it he hadn't come right down the approach path underneath it. Just a bit right or left would have been a big help of IFR traffic.

Best,

Dave

Wow. Sounds like your experience has given you had the tools and situational awareness to process and handle the threat he posed. Some pilots wouldn't even have been aware he was there...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

The TIS really helped. So Cal gave me a warning only after I asked about the traffic below me. Makes me wonder what's going on when that isn't working. I'm flying a low wing, descending onto a high wing. Not good.

Best,

Dave

 

[KennyFlys]

The TIS really helped. So Cal gave me a warning only after I asked about the traffic below me. Makes me wonder what's going on when that isn't working. I'm flying a low wing, descending onto a high wing. Not good.

Best,

Dave

TIS is a great tool. But we have to be aware of times when it can be distracting. I was reviewing a new potential student yesterday. TIS went off on us when an airliner landing with us on the parallel. The other center line is just over a mile away.

It startled the student. That's ok. It helps keep you alert.

 

[AdamZ]

Gillispie is at least a class D right and he wasn't talking to the tower? How far out where you guys?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Gillispie is at least a class D right and he wasn't talking to the tower? How far out where you guys?

Adam, I had the same question, Dave answered it here (post 22).

 

[jesse]

Maybe the crud was bad and he didn't have other options, but it appeared he did. Sounded like he just had no idea what he was doing was affecting traffic coming in on the only approach being used from the east.

Dave--with all due respect I flew VFR only for a number of years doing some pretty lengthy cross countries. A lot is going on with somewhat questionable weather and busy airspace.

You're looking for the airport.
You're trying to stay out of the clouds.
You're trying to stay out of airspace you shouldn't be in.
You're also looking for other aircraft.

Honestly, I would have no idea if there was a guy doing an approach above me, I would expect ATC to tell me if that were the case. As a VFR pilot I didn't brief myself on the IFR approaches nor did I brief myself as to their position. I didn't understand the plates that well in the first place.

IFR is easier in a lot of ways....Nice to just file and let them worry about you.

 

[KennyFlys]

Dave--with all due respect I flew VFR only for a number of years doing some pretty lengthy cross countries. A lot is going on with somewhat questionable weather and busy airspace.

You're looking for the airport.
You're trying to stay out of the clouds.
You're trying to stay out of airspace you shouldn't be in.
You're also looking for other aircraft.

Honestly, I would have no idea if there was a guy doing an approach above me, I would expect ATC to tell me if that were the case. As a VFR pilot I didn't brief myself on the IFR approaches nor did I brief myself as to their position. I didn't understand the plates that well in the first place.

IFR is easier in a lot of ways....Nice to just file and let them worry about you.

According to Dave, the other aircraft wasn't talking to either tower nor approach. But, when VFR at any airport you should expect the possibility of IFR traffic still with approach or center, especially if there is IMC above you or nearby.

Even if you're IFR but flying in VMC, it's your responsibility to separate yourself from all traffic. Yesterday, I was VFR on top doing maneuvers. I was no longer on squawk with approach. Separation was entirely my responsibility even during the time I was.

 

[jtheune]

Dave;
What I meant is that if he's outside of the D space he's just on a extended centerline to his destination. VFR he may not even be aware of what approaches are there and in use. This ties in closely to the discussion on IFR traffic reporting thier location in terms a VFR pilot would understand like 5 miles north of the field rather then samos inbound. IFR and VFR often have to share the airspace and we all need to get along without slaming the other side. ( not that you did but others in this thread have )

John

PS, I did not reconize your last name, are you a osh buddy?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'd tend to agree with John...the final approach course probably just follows the best VFR arrival route. My plan, were I VFR and otherwise ignorant, would be to follow close to the mountains on a north/south course to stay out of that messy Class B until my GPS said I was on the extended centerline of the runway, giving me both an easily pre-defined line on my sectional that I know is clear and the best potential to spot the runway in "marginal" conditions. Oddly enough, that puts you right on the final for the LOC-D.

I could follow the freeway, but my experience with that is somewhat negative in marginal weather, so I don't...

In my part of the country, we have "keyhole-shaped" Class E areas around airports that give us a good guess as to where the instrument approaches are for an airport, but the San Diego area doesn't have such luxuries. Even if the VFR pilot was trained to recognize what that meant (most aren't, IME), he couldn't tell from the sectional in that area. He'd have to be fairly knowlegeable about the approaches into SEE in order to avoid them. (although lining up on the long runway should, in theory, be an indication of where the approach would be...but again, I've never met a primary instructor who teaches IFR aircraft avoidance.)

Fly safe!

David

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I think the entire purpose of this post and of my transmission to tower once the Cessna got on frequency was to raise awarness of the VFR pilots. I wasn't saying anyone was doing anything wrong and many VFR only pilots probably don't know where IFR approaches are. But, why not try to listen to approach, stay off the extended center line just a bit when you know IFR arrivals are trying to get down and don't stay too close to cloud bottoms. I get traffic alerts at 1,000 feet apart and have to take some avoidance action. If that prevents me from getting down, I have to go around in the soup again and try to get routed back around for this approach once more. BTW, this approach is over 14 miles from the IAF to the runway, so, I'll be routed around in a very busy traffic area for some time. If the ceilings had been lower, I'd never had been able to still get down without a missed out to Mission Bay.

Best,

Dave

 

[TMetzinger]

And if you'd been going into an uncontrolled field you might have had even less separation, as the VFR pilot may have been in class G and just clear of the clouds.

 

[Everskyward]

He was right over SAMOS which is a step down on the Loc-D approach.

The ground around SAMOS is about 1,000 feet and the stepdown altitude is 4,500' so there was still a bit of room for VFR traffic below you even if you were still in the clouds at that point. I can relate to your problem, however.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0812/05402LD.PDF

I think the thing is that many VFR pilots are unaware that people could be doing instrument approaches above them. If the weather is still decent VFR underneath the clouds it doesn't occur to people that other airplanes might need to do the approach to get down through the clouds from above.

 

[SkyHog]

Please don't take this the wrong way, Dave, but it seems as if you are of the opinion that IFR traffic is more important than VFR traffic. Just because he happened to be in your way doesn't mean that he's inconsiderate. You were in the clouds, there's no way he could have seen ya.

If he was 500ft below the deck, flying in greater than 3 miles vis, he was perfectly legal, and to be honest, I could see myself in the same place, flying a straight in approach to an airport that just happened to have an IFR approach as well.

 

[CrashAxe]

But, why not try to listen to approach, stay off the extended center line just a bit when you know IFR arrivals are trying to get down and don't stay too close to cloud bottoms.

Some of us only have one radio in the plane and that radio is usually listening to Tower Frequency in or near the Class D. Sometimes people fly in Class D with No Radio (with prior permission) too.

I frankly also got the impression from some in this thread that you consider us VFR pilots as a much lesser specimen than someone flying IFR.

 

[rsleeds]

I frankly also got the impression from some in this thread that you consider us VFR pilots as a much lesser specimen than someone flying IFR.

They may not think us a much lesser speciman, but some just don't want us anywhere near "their" airspace.

The speech on the Tower frequency and this post say "stay the hell away from me even if you are legal and entitled to be here - I'm IFR and have preferential rights."

 

[gismo]

Please don't take this the wrong way, Dave, but it seems as if you are of the opinion that IFR traffic is more important than VFR traffic. Just because he happened to be in your way doesn't mean that he's inconsiderate. You were in the clouds, there's no way he could have seen ya.

If he was 500ft below the deck, flying in greater than 3 miles vis, he was perfectly legal, and to be honest, I could see myself in the same place, flying a straight in approach to an airport that just happened to have an IFR approach as well.

I know Dave pretty well and you can trust me on this, Dave is not one of those "I'm flying a twin IFR so get out of my way types". I think he was just trying to raise awareness of this kind of situation for the pilot's on the webboard that aren't IFR savvy. I do believe that the vast majority of VFR only pilots have no understanding of the potential conflicts with IFR traffic, I know I sure didn't know squat about that until I started training for the IR. Many (but not all) VFR pilots would just as soon avoid avoid close encounters of the aluminum kind that might occur when a perfectly legal IFR pilot descends out of the clouds on top of a perfectly legal VFR pilot flying just below the cloud bases in Class G. This is a serious safety gap in the FARs IMO and until everybody gets two way ADS-B or the regs change it will remain a risk to any IFR flight into an airport where the class E doesn't go low enough.

BTW, for those of you less lazy than me, was the class E vertical boundary really 1200 not 700 where Dave was flying?

 

[Everskyward]

BTW, for those of you less lazy than me, was the class E vertical boundary really 1200 not 700 where Dave was flying?

Looking at a portion of the sectional and comparing it to the approach plate it looks like that at SAMOS, which is abeam the point of the lake to the north, the traffic was in the 700' area.

I think the point of the OP was to educate other pilots about what they might not realize with respect to IFR traffic, not to chastise them about staying out of their airspace.