VFR over-the-top

waldo

waldo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Waldo
I have a question about VFR over-the-top. I know that VFR on-top is an IFR clearance and VFR over-the-top is a VFR clearance. Special VFR is only permited by a VFR pilot between sunrise and sunset and at a controlled airport when the tower is in operation. But what about VFR over-the-top, is it permitted at night if the pilot is not IFR rated? I am not asking for opinions as to "if it is safe or not", I'm a big boy :D. I have flown many VFR over-the-top flights and even a few at night. I just can't seem to find the rules for it. . . . Thanks for any refs.
 
waldo said:
I have a question about VFR over-the-top. I know that VFR on-top is an IFR clearance and VFR over-the-top is a VFR clearance. Special VFR is only permited by a VFR pilot between sunrise and sunset and at a controlled airport when the tower is in operation. But what about VFR over-the-top, is it permitted at night if the pilot is not IFR rated? I am not asking for opinions as to "if it is safe or not", I'm a big boy :D. I have flown many VFR over-the-top flights and even a few at night. I just can't seem to find the rules for it. . . . Thanks for any refs.
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As long as you hold at least a PPL.............

VFR is VFR no matter if there is a layer of clouds below you or not. All you need is regular vis & cloud distance for the airspace you are in.
 
VFR is VFR no matter if there is a layer of clouds below you or not. All you need is regular vis & cloud distance for the airspace you are in.
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... and a hole to come back down through. Otherwise it's IFR (if you're rated) or a discussion with the FAA (if you're not).
 
MSmith said:
... and a hole to come back down through. Otherwise it's IFR (if you're rated) or a discussion with the FAA (if you're not).
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Well there is no rule that you need a hole except for the cloud distance & vis rule :)

If there were a totally solid layer from 3000 to 3500 ft and you made an emergency decent through it because you were just about to hit min fuel reserve........................... How would anyone ever know?

"I SAW A HOLE" "it was there, Prove it wasn't"

Unless there was someone with a camcorder..........

Not that I would recommend anyone doing it.
 
The U.S. FARs including VFR-Over-The-Top:

The definition in Part 1: "VFR over-the-top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft over-the-top under VFR when it is not being operated on an IFR flight plan."

FAR 91.507 specifies equipment requirements.

Part 135 of the FAA rules includes 135.211, which includes several restrictions on the activity if you're carrying people or cargo for hire.

And Part 121 even specifies communication equipment required for air carriers operating VFR-Over-the-Top.

Canada apparently has a VFR-Over-The-Top Rating
 
Eamon said:
Unless there was someone with a camcorder..........
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Or a goat in a cloud bank...

or an antenna and guy wires...

or another "pilot" under the cloud thinking I've gotta get above those clouds to clear the rising terrain ahead, no one will know if I really quick like just pop on through....

or another aircraft legally flying on an IFR flight plan....

Len
 
waldo said:
I have a question about VFR over-the-top. I know that VFR on-top is an IFR clearance and VFR over-the-top is a VFR clearance. Special VFR is only permited by a VFR pilot between sunrise and sunset and at a controlled airport when the tower is in operation. But what about VFR over-the-top, is it permitted at night if the pilot is not IFR rated? I am not asking for opinions as to "if it is safe or not", I'm a big boy :D. I have flown many VFR over-the-top flights and even a few at night. I just can't seem to find the rules for it. . . . Thanks for any refs.
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That's because AFaIK there are no rules for it (at least for part 91), outside of Class B there are no clearances for VFR traffic. VFR "over the top" is just a description of a VFR pilot flying above a cloud layer and the rules for that are no different than for any other VFR flight, day or night. Of course at night it's a lot harder to determine how far you are from those clouds until you're in them, and for that reason alone I strongly recommend against such a practice unless you are IFR rated and equipped.
 
I'm pretty sure it's legal, day or night, as long as you maintain the appropriate cloud clearances for the airspace you're in. But safe? I've only done it twice in about 290 logged PIC hours. The first time was coming back from MCD at 9,500 feet, the "floor" was mostly BKN, I had plenty of fuel and the southern third of the state was clearing nicely. It was a good decision, we had gotten beat up pretty badly on the way up underneath the clouds and the return trip was a breeze. The second time was when I was flying with an instrument rated pilot, coming back from a get-together in northern lower Michigan, when I decided to climb through a "sucker hole" and flew us back over Saginaw Bay, again at 9,500. It was mostly BKN north of the Bay but from the Thumb south, BKN/OVC and by the time we neared PHN, the breaks were few and far between and we ended up having to get a pop-up IFR clearance to get back down.

I feel it's best avoided unless you are VERY sure of having a way down at your destination.

Liz
 
Whats the difference between over the top and on top?

VFR on-top doesn't require IFR if you can get there while maintaining VMC (and ideally, get down again doing the same). I've been VFR on top coming back from Pittsburgh where we had SCT at AGC, CLR < 12K at MTN but OVC over the mountains at 4,000. I opted to go over the clouds at 7,5 instead of under them at 3,5 because 3,5 didn't leave me much room between the clouds and the tree tops.

Once we got past the mountains the white fluffy stuff below us went away. Perfectly legal all the way.
 
lancefisher said:
I strongly recommend against such a practice unless you are IFR rated and equipped.
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Amen to that..
 
Len Lanetti said:
Or a goat in a cloud bank...

or an antenna and guy wires...

or another "pilot" under the cloud thinking I've gotta get above those clouds to clear the rising terrain ahead, no one will know if I really quick like just pop on through....

or another aircraft legally flying on an IFR flight plan....

Len
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So in an emergancy situatuion you recommend what? Staying up there till out of fuel.

If the cloud bases are 3000 ft AGL, you are getting FF & you know there are no towers... you would rather tell ATC you are braking a FAR? or just staying up there?
 
Greebo said:
Whats the difference between over the top and on top?
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To ATC, "over the top" is done VFR, while "on top" is done IFR.

VFR on-top doesn't require IFR if you can get there while maintaining VMC (and ideally, get down again doing the same). I've been VFR on top coming back from Pittsburgh where we had SCT at AGC, CLR < 12K at MTN but OVC over the mountains at 4,000.
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In ATC terms, "VFR on top" (aka "OTP" on the strip) is ONLY an IFR operation. VFR pilots often use the term to describe flying above a layer, but by FAA terminology, the are operating "over the top," not "on top."

Perfectly legal all the way.
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While "over the top" operation (flying VFR above a deck) is technically legal if you maintain the 91.155 cloud separation distances, it is downright dangerous if you do not have an instrument rating and instrument equipment or at least an absolutely certain, guaranteed out that will get you down without penetrating a cloud. In fact, most countries prohibit it for safety reasons. Here in the good ol' freedom-loving US of A, we still allow it, but if you get jammed up (e.g., stuck on top and need help getting down), expect face time with the FSDO to discuss the meaning of the words "careless or reckless" -- assuming you survive the experience, which many non-IR pilots do not.
 
Yes, we've had this discussion before.

But I still feel my choice of altitudes was the better one for the conditions I was in, knowing what my destination conditions were.

I initially tried to stay below the thin, BKN cloud layer topping at about 5,000 but that was putting me awfully close to 1000 AGL over the peaks and with LOUSY visibility - around 3 - 4 miles in some spots. So I backtracked some, found a nice hole, and got up high over the clouds at 7,500 with vis unlimited and I could see the end of the cloud layer ahead of us past the mountains. Flight following all the way (and another reason to be up high because they couldn't track my transponder when I was down that low in that area).

I'd repeat that *particular* scenario again too. I'd rather have a lot of room below me, even if it were white fluffy stuff, and be in contact with ATC and have them know where I was than have less than 1000 AGL at the peaks and lousy visibility if something went south with the engine. It may only be the appalachain mountains, but they're still mountains. :)

Lesser of two evils, in my opinion.
 
waldo said:
I have a question about VFR over-the-top. I know that VFR on-top is an IFR clearance and VFR over-the-top is a VFR clearance. Special VFR is only permited by a VFR pilot between sunrise and sunset and at a controlled airport when the tower is in operation. But what about VFR over-the-top, is it permitted at night if the pilot is not IFR rated? I am not asking for opinions as to "if it is safe or not", I'm a big boy :D. I have flown many VFR over-the-top flights and even a few at night. I just can't seem to find the rules for it. . . . Thanks for any refs.
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You won't find a rule that says you can do it. The trick is you will NOT find a rule that says you can't. A lot of the "regulations" are like that. If it's not restricted then it's permitted.
 
That was my understanding of it but wanted to see how my fellow pilots interpreted it. Many pilots that I have spoke with are scared to death to fly VFR over-the-top. I tell them that "they shouldn't do it then". As for myself, I have logged many hours over-the-top. I am not instrument rated but will be in two weeks :goofy:. I agree that altitude is my friend and flying at 800' AGL is hazardous. You really got to watch and know the weather. If it's clear at my destination, I would much rather get over-the-top. Cloud formations can look pretty wierd up there so you really need to have some good instrument training. I kinda like what Canada has done though I'm not sure how practical it is. I think they require 15 hours instruction and it sounds like some pretty good weather reporting as well.

Thanks for all the replies! I really do value all of your opinions even though I think some are very conservative. Kinda like an IFR rated pilot over Baton Rouge the other day was looking for a hole to descend through because it was solid overcast at 3000'. That's not hard IFR folks! Why did this pilot even get his Instrument Ticket?
 
waldo said:
Thanks for all the replies! I really do value all of your opinions even though I think some are very conservative. Kinda like an IFR rated pilot over Baton Rouge the other day was looking for a hole to descend through because it was solid overcast at 3000'. That's not hard IFR folks! Why did this pilot even get his Instrument Ticket?
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Could be multiple reasons for that decision, all of them quite valid:

1. Pilot is IFR rated but not IFR current.
2. Pilot is IFR current but not feeling IFR competent today.
3. Aircraft is not IFR current.
4. Aircraft is not IFR equipped.
5. Pilot doesn't trust the airplane's equipment despite what the logbooks say.
6. Pilot doesn't feel IFR competent with aircraft's instrumentation/avionics.
7. Imbedded thunderstorms.
8. Icing.

I'm sure other folks could add to this list.

As an example of the above: From time to time I will ferry aircraft across the country for folks. I don't remember the ferry aircraft I would take into IMC. No offense to the owners, but I just don't trust the average owner or the average mechanic. I've been bit once too often to go asking for problems.
 
Years ago, long before my IR, a collegue and I flew my Skyhawk on a business trip to Danbury, CT. The weather was iffy but it was supposed to clear up by the time we got to Danbury and I really wanted to use my fairly new (to me) plane for a real business trip. When we got to my airport it actually didn't look that bad so we took off. Turned out we blasted right through a large sucker hole right over the airport, but we continued on over the high broken layer below us, knowing that it was supposed to break up as we moved further south and should be clear at our destination. But the holes in the clouds below us seemed to get smaller rather than larger, and by the time we got to Danbury we were on top of a solid undercast. Uh oh. Time for plan B. I turned to my passenger and said "Jack, you better file a pop-up - otherwise we're stuck up here." He, of course, was instrument rated and current (and a CFI). I would never have done it without an IR in the plane....
 
I would agree with the conditions listed as to why NOT to fly an IAP in some conditions. However, 3000' with MDA of 279'? I've been in worse weather flying VFR. Infact, I was flying that day, that's how I picked up the radio transmission! How about an ASR (radar) approach? How "good" does one need to feel to descend through an 800' layer down to 2500' and then do a visual approach? Maybe he shouldn't be flying at all that day! If this was the first time that I heard of this I would understand, but this kind of stuff happens all the time. We had 1000' ceilings that cleared at 10 miles out one day. They had IFR pilots on the ground waiting for it to clear up. I took off under "special" VFR and was on my way, in wonderful VFR weather in just minutes. We have no mountains to worry about here in Louisiana so what's the problem with all of these pilots? I flew in, a few weeks ago, with 900' ceilings. It was one little cloud over the airport. I was 7 miles east and could see the airport under the cloud. Another instance had a small thunderstom over the airport that was slowly moving to the north. I was heading 180 and could see the storm from 40 miles out. I heard pilots in small jets diverting to LFT some 48 miles west. I slowed down and took my time, went around the small storm to the south. As it moved off the field (maybe a 15 minute delay) I landed and it was hardly even raining. I just don't understand why pilots even get an IFR ticket if they are not going to use it. Maybe I feel this way because I am just working so darn hard to get mine.
 
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