jasc15
Pre-takeoff checklist
I may have mentioned in another thread on a similar topic, but I'm sure there were some old fogeys complaining when those new fangled VORs were being deployed. Same story with GPS.
VFR Navigation
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L.Adamson
Pre-takeoff checklist
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L.Adamson
Yep....
Had some kind of long range ADF or VOR suddenly been possible just before Charles Lindbergh's well known voyage across the Atlantic.........most investors would have probably pulled out, because it's "cheating", and the suspense and possible failure of dead reckoning would have been removed.
And if Amelia Earhart was somehow given a second chance, and handed a new fangled GPS; would she have preferred knowing her exact position within a few feet, or just go down with the ship.....for histories sake?
L.Adamson
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I agree, however, I think that being proficient with VOR navigation takes a little more savvy of what's on the chart and how to follow the chart, while GPS is nothing but following the line on the screen.
They are both crutches and IMHO flying without basic, finger on chart navigation skills and relying on nothing but electronics for navigation is a bad plan.
Follow one line or the other, same really.
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
Nosewheel airplanes plus GPS have enabled "pilots" who can neither aviate or navigate. Don't get me wrong: I embrace technology - I just don't want to sleep with it. I'm old school, but the machines I currently fly have GPS, and with FMC and our sophistcated autopilot, it can do incredible circling approaches (while on glideslope, weaving around mountains!).
It's not enough for just the airplane/autopilot to know where it is on the chart...if the pilot doesn't. GPS should be a gift for the pilot who has already learned well the fundamentals of navigation without it - direction, time, distance, pilotage, and yes VOR. Not to mention what to do when said navigation is comprimized by weather, etc. Come to think of it, GPS navigation isn't comprimized by obscuration - like pilotage is - so an inexperienced person may follow the (magenta) primrose path well in to harms way - well after a guy with a WAC chart and a wristwatch will have diverted/landed. GPS is fine, but it's no substitute for a vigilant pilot.
It's not enough for just the airplane/autopilot to know where it is on the chart...if the pilot doesn't. GPS should be a gift for the pilot who has already learned well the fundamentals of navigation without it - direction, time, distance, pilotage, and yes VOR. Not to mention what to do when said navigation is comprimized by weather, etc. Come to think of it, GPS navigation isn't comprimized by obscuration - like pilotage is - so an inexperienced person may follow the (magenta) primrose path well in to harms way - well after a guy with a WAC chart and a wristwatch will have diverted/landed. GPS is fine, but it's no substitute for a vigilant pilot.
L.Adamson
Pre-takeoff checklist
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L.Adamson
And then of course, that magenta line also has all of the closest airports in case of an emergency, and all of those in-flight weather depictions & TFRs splattered over it; not to mention the surrounding of airport runway & taxiway diagrams when you go to takeoff or land. For worst cases, there is even splotches of red and yellow (terrain) off to the sides, or perhaps in front
But.............for some, that's just too much info to be fun, I guess...
They'll even tell you to leave the GPS home for cross countries once and a while. As if there is something macho about it, or that supposeably you'll be a better pilot, for it. Nonsense!
Personally, I just like being better informed. I figure it's always preferable,
to being less informed. Leaving it at home for the sake of VOR nav, is plain stupid in my opinion.
The only thing real easy about GPS,... is if you can't do any better than just follow a direct magenta line, without knowing what's in between. Thankfully, most modern moving map GPSs won't even let you do that...as they throw a lot of info on the screen, automatically.
L.Adamson --- if an instructor has a smirk on their face, and says to throw the GPS into the backseat, then throw them out..
L.Adamson
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L.Adamson
Let's get serious. I get tired of all the BS...
You're a passenger on Comair flight 191. You're one of many, that is about to die, along with the pilot, because the plane is about to takeoff on too short of a runway. Only the co-pilot survives. You're assuming that the crew is "vigilant", but apparently not enough, in this case.
So what works best here? How about a nice full screen MFD, with GPS derived runway diagrams, that would easily have shown, that a fatal mistake is about to occur.
Since I do follow up on so much of these accidents, I get sick and tired of people suggesting that GPS can just be an after thought.
You've may have heard, that I got interested in this phenomenon, when a United Airlines DC-8 four engine jet slammed into the mountain above my house in 1977. It's something I think about, ever since.
L.Adamson
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I'm not sure, but I don't think that j1b was down playing the use of modern technology or suggesting that it not be used to increase the safety and efficiency of a flight.:wink2:
I THINK what he is saying is that relying ONLY on technology WITHOUT fundamental skills as a foundation is not a good plan either.:wink2:
I THINK what he is saying is that relying ONLY on technology WITHOUT fundamental skills as a foundation is not a good plan either.:wink2:
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
Sir-
If I understand you correctly, you seem to think GPS is some sort of panacea - that would have prevented the accident near your house and in LEX?
I submit that A) Situational awareness can be lost regardless of equipment on board...I think the United accident predates GPS - their problems had more to do with a tyrannical captain and other distractions...'til they ran the tanks dry. B) The Comair CRJ was equipt with GPS, but you say it wasn't vivid enough (early-thirty in the morning, with connecting runways).
Despite numerous attempts to equipt airplanes, legislate equiptment of airplanes, and every other attempt to make it so easy a caveman can do it, $h1+ still happens. There is no such thing as an unsinkable ship.
There may, however, be such thing as an unsinkable crew. With the right crew, it doesn't matter much how the airplane...or boat,or pick your vehicle is equipt.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to think GPS is some sort of panacea - that would have prevented the accident near your house and in LEX?
I submit that A) Situational awareness can be lost regardless of equipment on board...I think the United accident predates GPS - their problems had more to do with a tyrannical captain and other distractions...'til they ran the tanks dry. B) The Comair CRJ was equipt with GPS, but you say it wasn't vivid enough (early-thirty in the morning, with connecting runways).
Despite numerous attempts to equipt airplanes, legislate equiptment of airplanes, and every other attempt to make it so easy a caveman can do it, $h1+ still happens. There is no such thing as an unsinkable ship.
There may, however, be such thing as an unsinkable crew. With the right crew, it doesn't matter much how the airplane...or boat,or pick your vehicle is equipt.
I recently saw an interview with a guy who was a navigator on Pacific flights during WW II, and he thinks that she disregarded the advice of her navigator on the last leg of the flight.
The reason he thinks so is that a previous position fix from about 200 miles away had them right on course, but he thinks that a competent navigator (which he says Noonan was) would have advised her to turn a bit south of course at that point, aiming half way between Howland Island and another one 40 miles to the south. The theory was that they should have been able to see one or both islands on that course, giving them an effective target 40 miles wide. He thinks that she disregarded this advice and continued in what she thought was a direct course for Howland, because their final radio bearings indicated they were north of it (presumably as a result of the south winds).
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you are talking about a CFI that doesn't like GPS and won't teach it, that's one thing. But there is nothing wrong with a CFI who takes the GPS away for at least one x-country to have the student demonstrate that they are able to function without it.
If you have a problem with that then I suppose you must also have a problem with CFII's and examiners covering up instruments on the panel during training for the IR.
Arbiter419
Cleared for Takeoff
Does anyone else use PTN navigation?
L.Adamson
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L.Adamson
Nope, I don't have a problem with the above. Never said I did.
L.Adamson
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Had moving map GPS with terrain ability been available in 1977..........we wouldn't be talking about this crash... that never happened.
Check this Comair report to see the specifics. Even though the crew missed various cues............ the Jeppeson taxi diagram that shows up in a new Cessna 172, would presented a much more forceful cue. You can always argue that point, I suppose.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2007/AAR0705.pdf
rottydaddy
En-Route
Had they questioned their own decision and wanted to verify the runway heading before rolling, they could have also just consulted the mag compass. Maybe they didn't know 26 was too short, but that is moot:the mistake was that they assumed they were on 22. You said it yourself: they weren't vigilant enough. I'm not blasting these guys; I know they were tired, etc. But it was their mistake- and the kind of error that could not be prevented with an electronic heading indicator vs. a wet compass, or an airport diagram on a LCD vs. one on a piece of paper. They weren't even on the runway assigned by the tower! If the tower had given them 26, they'd be completely exonerated, even though it could be argued that they should have studied the airport diagram prior, just in case Tower screwed up.
The MFD, with all the knowledge available at their fingertips, would have been useless if they felt no need to verify their heading. The only gizmo that would have overcome that mistake would be something that detects runway length ahead of the aircraft, compares it to aircraft performance data and the current weight and conditions, and sounds an alarm. But since there are already plenty of ways to prevent taking an inadequate runway in the first place (even without GPS or MFDs), there is not much pressure on the industry to implement such technology.
I'm reminded of the flight that landed on a taxiway at KEWR during the same year. Was the problem that it was a circle-to-land on 29 off the 22L ILS, with the last part hand-flown, or that they mistook a taxiway for a runway, despite working approach, threshold, centerline and border lights, all in the correct colors for runway and taxiway?
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L.Adamson
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I have to disagree on this point. I took a quick GPS trip to the airport in question (KLEX) on my Garmin 696 portable. If I'm zoomed out, it's easy to see that runway 22 (7003') is twice as long as runway 26 at 3500'. (note: Is now 27 at 4000') If I'm zoomed in, to the point of not being able to see actual runway length, then the taxiway and runway numbers stand out like sore thumbs. All of this would have been right in front of the pilots during the complete taxi process, as your GPS driven aircraft symbol moves with you. Since it is in front of you every second, it's much more noticable than marking signs that you've passed. If you haven't tried these GPS driven Jeppeson airport maps, then do so. You'd really have to go out of your way to get confused, as you can zoom in or out at anytime there is a question.
L.Adamson
rottydaddy
En-Route
Yeah, but the wet compass was right in front of them the whole time, but apparently they didn't look at it. Assuming the DG was set properly, they would have that as well. They may have even been able to see the numbers painted on the runway, although that's not a given.
My point is that the tools- be they primitive or state-of-the-art- are not going to help at all unless you're using them. That includes the checklist- I would be surprised to find that an airline crew's pre-takeoff checklist did not include VERIFY RUNWAY HEADING... but not surprised at all to find that they weren't following the checklist scrupulously that night. Maybe having those words displayed on a screen in front of them would be more effective than on paper clipped to the yoke or in somebody's lap, but the power of fatigue and mutual assumptions about position could easily override that, too. This accident was very similar, cause-wise, to others where flaps, trim, or AP were not set correctly before takeoff. A procedural failure, as opposed to a lack of suitable tools.
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Shorrick Mk2
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Longing for Long Tien
Aviator and Navigator are two entirely different jobs. Why was the Navigator position created? So that the Aviator could concentrate on flying the plane. In the real world navigators have disappeared already a while ago because tools have come along that can do their job faster, with a lot more accuracy, without variables such as circadian rythm or bad moods influencing their output (and probably cheaper too). Sure the GPS can fail - but what is the rate of GPS failure vs the rate of pilots getting lost due to poor DR nav?
For some reason some people at the piston end of GA think the way it should be is that the Aviator should cumulate all functions - Aviator, Navigator, Flight Engineer etc. Fact is - you can't do everything and do everything perfectly all the time, every time. Jack of all trades, master of none. The result of this line of thought is that most of piston GA is dominated by 1950es designs (Flying Mag had the guts of saying the Cessna 172 is still relevant) that plod along at 100 kts (because you'd be hard pressed to do VFR DR nav at say 250) powered by abysmal technology powerplants.
The long and short of it is that anything you can add that reduces 'figuring' time increases 'deciding' time. If that same process also increases the quality and quantity of the information used in deciding, that is a major plus.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
In 2005 I did a 4,000+ mile cross country. I planned it all out for months prior to going. Nav logs, fuel logs, everything. On the first day of the trip I didn't even land where I originally planned to on Day 1. Same for Day 2, and 3, and... I had GPS, but I only used it on Day 1 to South Dakota and Day 9 (was over a cloud deck) to Oklahoma. And then the last two days because I was over flatland and there's nothing to see in Kansas, Northern Missouri, and Illinois. The rest of the trip was looking at the charts, and saying, "well this looks cool," and I would divert along a ridge line, or fly down a valley, or out over the Pacific Ocean...
Planning is great for students, and my thoughts are if you need to keep planning well into being a private pilot as you did when you were a student, you are either cutting things way close, or not a very good pilot. After a hundred hours or so, someone should be able to give you a wad of cash, the keys to a plane, VFR charts and AF/D of the United States, randomly pick and place and say "go here." You should be ready to go in 10 minutes, be able to do it without all the planning, without issue and without a GPS.
Planning is great for students, and my thoughts are if you need to keep planning well into being a private pilot as you did when you were a student, you are either cutting things way close, or not a very good pilot. After a hundred hours or so, someone should be able to give you a wad of cash, the keys to a plane, VFR charts and AF/D of the United States, randomly pick and place and say "go here." You should be ready to go in 10 minutes, be able to do it without all the planning, without issue and without a GPS.
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Here's another story from 1991, I had used my first GPS on a boat but it was not yet in airplanes. I had just passed my PP and set off from Long Beach CA to Fort Wayne IN to see my folks with some time in St Louis visiting friends whom I took along on a day trip to Evansville IN to check out a BE 56TC I was considering buying. It was just too runout. I did the trip in an Arrow II and lost both of my NAV radios outbound over the Grand Canyon. One was a Kx 155 and one was one of the old Narco in head units and both failed within moments of each other. I still had both coms and a transponder though, so being on FF I called them up "XX Center, 08T, It appears I've lost both my nav radios a few moments back. I'm heading to Alamosa and I'm pretty good on own nav, but if it looks like I'm gonna bust somebodies airspace out here, I'd appreciate a shout."," Roger that 08T, would you like vectors to Alamosa?" "Sure, thanks..." They ended up vectoring me as direct they could (making wind corrections) all the way to Spirit of St Louis with one more fuel stop in Coffee County Kansas.
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
I do not object to GPS. Or ILS, DME, dual NAV/COMS, RNAV, RMIs, PFD and MFDs, or moving maps with GPWS and NEXRAD. I've no complaint with heated pitots, windshields and props, nor de-icer boots, hot leading edges and weeping wings. Pressurized cabins do not offend me, nor does absurd amounts of horsepower, torque or lbs of thrust.
I just don't see them as making me all that much safer - without a pilot in the hero-chair who really understands what each system can (and can't) do. Airplanes have crashed into mountains with the guidance of GPS, exhausted all fuel with trip computers, accrued severe icing with deicer boots, departed from incorrect runways with slaved compasses and stalled the wing with copious amounts of horsepower. The single reason it doesn't happen every day is a well trained and vigilant flight crew with the experience to know what those fancy gadgets will and won't do. Having an EPIRB in a canoe isn't much reassurance near Niagra Falls.
I just don't see them as making me all that much safer - without a pilot in the hero-chair who really understands what each system can (and can't) do. Airplanes have crashed into mountains with the guidance of GPS, exhausted all fuel with trip computers, accrued severe icing with deicer boots, departed from incorrect runways with slaved compasses and stalled the wing with copious amounts of horsepower. The single reason it doesn't happen every day is a well trained and vigilant flight crew with the experience to know what those fancy gadgets will and won't do. Having an EPIRB in a canoe isn't much reassurance near Niagra Falls.
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jsstevens
To put it more succinctly: No tool, no matter how wonderful, is a substitute for understanding the problem.
Without understanding the problem, you have no idea when the tools will lie to you nor what to do when the tool shuts down.
John
Without understanding the problem, you have no idea when the tools will lie to you nor what to do when the tool shuts down.
John
ChrisK
En-Route
Because when the going is tight and you are in the dark in the middle of figuring out just WTF is going wrong, it fills in the "navigate" part of the "aviate-navigate-communicate" triangle with just a moments glance to keep you out of the side of a mountain rather than require a substantial increase in time and concentration for the same task under another method. This allows you more time and concentration to spend on aviating and figuring out your damned problem.
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jsstevens
And it better be the sharpest tool as well.
j1b3h0
Line Up and Wait
A Bridgeport milling machine is unnecessary if you haven't mastered a drillpress. A well trained experienced machinist can tell you what the mill can't do - but it will take awhile for the drillpress operator to discover them. Same in our business...tools without experience are of limited value. Experience with limited tools can get by OK.
And, yeah, a real tool in the cockpit can **** off everybody for thousands of miles, if his ego exceeds his wingtips.
And, yeah, a real tool in the cockpit can **** off everybody for thousands of miles, if his ego exceeds his wingtips.
You make a good analogy though improperly. There is definely a correlation to machine shops and I saw it there working in them. It's more like the difference CNC made. It's a different skill set to produce the same result with much greater speed and accuracy coupled to a vast reduction in both wasted time and material.
Shorrick Mk2
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Longing for Long Tien
Experience in navigation (tool) <> experience in flying (objective). The less time you spend learning and getting experience in figuring out where you are, the more time can spend on learning how to FLY.
Very few sailors nowadays go sailing with the purpose of honing their celestial navigation skills. For some reason fliers still prefer to do it the old skool way.
Same with IR pilots and SVT, they refuse to believe they spent all that money and time learning a passé skill. Sorry, no longer need to learn to interpret a six pack raw data panel and puzzle the pieces together to figure out which way you're pointed, now you look at a real time picture of it.
It's all fun and games till............. The screen goes dark..
That's why you have 2-3 with independent power supplies.
L.Adamson
Pre-takeoff checklist
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L.Adamson
You couldn't have said it better!
A few years ago, in this rugged mountainous neighborhood of mine...
There was a pilot who flew a cross country with a filed IFR flight plan. He cancelled IFR to land at his local untowered airport. The night was dark, mountains were not visible, but plenty of city lights were below.
Unfortunately, he entered a low lying cloud, became disoriented, and over flew a foothill subdivision at low altitude before disintegrating on the mountain side.
While on a road trip just today, I seen these low lying clouds hugging the mountain foothills. If you get surprised by these in darkness, all ground reference is quickly removed.
Once again, it's a case, where you've only got a few seconds to find your place in situational awareness. A glance at a good moving map GPS with terrain features is all it takes. I can go on & on, about these types of scenarios.
L.Adamson
denverpilot
Tied Down
I generally agree, but it'd take a little longer if there was any significant weather to really get a good look at "what it is, where it's going, and what it's doing" pre-flight. You might need to wait for a couple more RADAR updates, for example.
And I hate to say it, but I've met some pilots with well more than 100 hours who haven't learned to read weather data...
"What difference does the weather make? You're going anyway." This was what my boss on the pipeline gig would say when I'd ask about the weather down the line.
I still can't tell if you are damn good... or damn lucky..
Both... I did a " high speed taxi" down the right of way before to get though a couple miles of low fog and ice..
L.Adamson
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Fine,
You do it your way, and I'll do it my way. I use GPS, I use XM weather. I like to know what's going on hundreds of miles ahead weather wise. I like keeping better track of actual fuel useage, thanks to the GPS being tied to my fuel monitor. I prefer in flight presentations of TFRs and exact boundaries all of the military airspaces that cover the mountain west. I like knowing where emergency airstrips are located within just a few seconds. Just last year, a TFR for a forest fire popped up, and actually changed shape during the flight. It's done through XM weather.
I'm not going to pretend to be someone...........that say's, "I don't need that stuff!" I'm just going to be one, who knows a lot more that you do, as I cross the country..... in real time, without having to make numerous calls to an FSS....or have my charts scattered about. Most likely, the trip was already programmed into the GPS (including the reverse course), and charts are folded and ready to follow along.
A side note: I remember watching a Richard Collins presentation for the Garmin 1000 & Sportys. He has close to 20,000 flight hrs, has wrote numerous aviation books, as well as plenty of articles, and training tapes. At the end, he made the comment that some pilots still prefer the old way of charts, pencils, and rulers. He said, "let them do that if they want". But personally, he had no plans to go back to those methods. That was 2005.
I just seen a recent interview, in which he was asked if he felt pilots were safer with "glass". He said "no".............except for two important items, which were electronic terrain depicition & traffic alerts. I can go along with that. It's that TERRAIN function, that I keep harping about here. If you have it, chances are you might live to tell about it, when it all goes to hell in just a few seconds.
L.Adamson
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I'll play nice and give you a H dominating Colorado and another dominating over Tennessee.