VFR Flight Along Victor Airways

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
I have been looking at realistic, possible flight plans the DPE may give me. In one scenario a VOR is only about 4 miles out of my way about 1/2 thru the flight. So in theory I can just depart our airport, fly NW for about 1 mile and then hop onto a Victor airway which takes me to the VOR. Then at the VOR a slight turn onto another Victor airway direct into the destination. Obviously I would be using pilotage, dead reckoning, running checkpoints with real landmarks, etc.

So, I believe it is perfectly fine to use the Victor airways for VFR flight. Just be on the correct VFR altitude (4500 or 6500 going SW in my case). Expect that IFR traffic may using the Victor airway at 4000, 5000, 6000, etc). I will be meeting with my CFI over the weekend so thought I run this through the PoA mill beforehand:

1.) On my 1st leg I will be climbing to cruise altitude while within the victor airway...is this a no-no?
2.) I was not planning on announcing the use of the victor airway on the Unicom, I've never heard it before and seems it would just be unnecessary noise since there are so many airports on our Unicom.
3.) As I near the VOR that I am overlying I will announce it on their Unicom, especially since it is about 3 miles south of a airport.
4.) I was not planning on getting flight following - mainly because I know he has to divert fairly soon for testing purposes. Will I bust a ride for not using radar services on a victor airway.
 
!. No, ya gotta get there somehow. Do keep eyes outside the cockpit and gentle turns (10-20*) left & right looking for other traffic, will impress DPE
2.Yeah unnecessary
3.Unnecessary, you'd be well above that airport traffic pattern area
4. If you're comfortable using FF I would, would impress DPE that you know how, and are using all tools available to you
 
3) While I agree with mscard that is unnecessary, if I'm close to an airport, particularly if I'm doing airwork I'll at least tune into the CTAF/UNICOM. If I hear folks in the area I'll announce my intentions. I've had too many close calls in my relatively few hours that telling people where I'm at and what I'm doing I think is a good idea.

As for doing it on your checkride, I think you'll invite more questions from the DPE as this is not a standard radio call, but I think he/she would be impressed with you simply monitoring the local traffic.
 
On my checkride i simply told the DPE, "This is where I would dial up xxx.x and call to open my VFR flight plan, then call center on xxx.x and get flight following." We did a diversion pretty much right after that.
 
Regarding #3) My first CFI asked me to announce whenever overflying the VOR when it is near a airport as it is a place where other traffic is known to converge. In my example case, this is a rather quiet airport out on the frontier and my intention is not to land. So was a bit gray to me. Plus, I know we'll never make it that far before he diverts or the checkride would be like 3hrs :)
 
Sinistar said:
Regarding #3) My first CFI asked me to announce whenever overflying the VOR when it is near a airport as it is a place where other traffic is known to converge. In my example case, this is a rather quiet airport out on the frontier and my intention is not to land. So was a bit gray to me. Plus, I know we'll never make it that far before he diverts or the checkride would be like 3hrs :)
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I based my answer on you being at cruise altitude, well above that airport. IOW if you're level at 4500' I don't see the need for making a call to Unicom, unless you're still climbing say with a thousand feet or so near that airport. But, go with what your CFI tells you.

On nearing the VOR keep your eyes outside! Other planes may be converging in the vicinity of the VOR also.
 
Sinistar said:
4.) I was not planning on getting flight following - mainly because I know he has to divert fairly soon for testing purposes.
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Ask the DPE on the ground if he would like you to use flight following. If he says "whatever" or "yes" be prepared to cancel services when he requests the diversion. Don't be surprised if he says "no." It's a slightly increased workload for you so might want to not do it. Talk to your CFI about it, they probably know the DPE's style well and can give you more insight.
 
I would be very unimpressed if a VFR (V for visual) student was using his panel to navigate vs a map and the window.

Using something like foreflight to spot check yourself, or using flight following, that's fine.

As far as the v airways, hardly any real IFR traffic uses those anyways.

You got to keep in mind after you pass that test you could legally rent a plane without a electrical system, if I were the DPE I'd want to know you wouldn't end up lost and running out of gas because you couldn't navigate with a paper chart and a window.

I'd also tune up the local airports, workload and number of radios permitting, there are advantages and zero disadvantages to this.
 
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James331 said:
I would be very unimpressed if a VFR (V for visual) student was using his panel to navigate vs a map and the window.

Using something like foreflight to spot check yourself, or using flight following, that's fine.

As far as the v airways, hardly any real IFR traffic uses those anyways.

You got to keep in mind after you pass that test you could legally rent a plane without a electrical system, if I were the DPE I'd want to know you wouldn't end up lost and running out of gas because you couldn't navigate with a paper chart and a window.

I'd also tune up the local airports, workload and number of radios permitting, there are advantages and zero disadvantages to this.
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Obviously the VFR flight plan will be on a paper sectional with checkpoints. And I indicated in the OP that I would be using pilotage and dead reckoning and running checkpoints for ground speed, fuel consumption, etc.

Now I am pretty darned sure (99%) that for this theoretical flight plan, if I did not make use of VOR's I'd be grilled to well done on both sides. And for this specific case I ended up on victor airways which hasn't really happened during any other planned cross country flights thus the questions.

I am ready to do the entire flight on paper sectionals only. That includes a diversion with recalculations for distance, time and fuel. I always pre-tune in the VOR and verify it in flight. I have always tuned in nearby ATIS/AWOS to get new winds and altimeter (wife drove that home even before I even started lessons). I highlight all the obstructions on the sectional. I also pencil in the runway directions and non-standard pattern altitudes on the sectional along the route. And I highlight in orange all the FSS freqs that are out, NDB's no longer functioning (3 along this particular route!) We do have a panel mounted Android running Garmin Pilot. He can turn it off he likes. The last couple of flights I have purposely not used it. I hate the cluster of using paper sectionals in the cockpit...but am quite comfortable using them. I actually prefer looking at a large printed map vs pinch and zoom on a table. But the tablet is just so much more efficient.

I just don't want bust a ride due some victor airway related FAR or AIM section that I missed.
 
labbadabba said:
3) While I agree with mscard that is unnecessary, if I'm close to an airport, particularly if I'm doing airwork I'll at least tune into the CTAF/UNICOM. If I hear folks in the area I'll announce my intentions. I've had too many close calls in my relatively few hours that telling people where I'm at and what I'm doing I think is a good idea..
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I do the same. A little story about this: A while back I was out flying and got scolded by a CFI from the air who didn't know me, but I knew him, because I was announcing over CTAF my intentions without being in the immediate airport vicinity. A little background here, is that there are two non-towered fields within about 15nm from each other and both share the same CTAF freq. of 122.7. I had departed airport A and was out cruising toward airport B low level and did some photo work in between. I announced on the CTAF "XYZ traffic Cessna 123 is about 4-5 miles NE of the XYZ orbiting at 2500 for photog work." The CFI was back in the pattern at airport A and reamed me out because I shouldn't have been announcing intentions without being closer to the immediate airport pattern. Meanwhile, there are other aircraft departing and flying around airport B, so my announcement was for both airports to let the other pilots know that I was out there.

I didn't appreciate the CFI scolding me over the radio and I told him, "I'll be calling you." After landing, I called him up and told him that was extremely unprofessional and uncalled for as I was utilizing the CTAF as it's meant to be used. He told me that he apologized and didn't mean to come across in the way he did, but wanted to make the point not to tie up the frequency for other aircraft that are in the immediate traffic pattern and I responded that the couple of transmissions I made were not stepping on anyone nor did they pose a safety hazard. He apologized and that was the end of that. Needless to say, I don't ever plan to use him as a CFI, nor did he have valid reasoning behind his statements.
 
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eetrojan said:
Out of curiosity, how did you know him?
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I took a discovery flight with him a year or so before I began flight training and I’ve seen him out at this particular airport several times.
 
Ryanb said:
I do the same. A little story about this: A while back I was out flying and got scolded by a CFI from the air who didn't know me, but I knew him, because I was announcing over CTAF my intentions without being in the immediate airport vicinity. A little background here, is that there are two non-towered fields within about 15nm from each other and both share the same CTAF freq. of 122.7. I had departed airport A and was out cruising toward airport B low level and did some photo work in between. I announced on the CTAF "XYZ traffic Cessna 123 is about 4-5 miles NE of the XYZ orbiting at 2500 for photog work." The CFI was back in the pattern at airport A and reamed me out because I shouldn't have been announcing intentions without being closer to the immediate airport pattern. Meanwhile, there are other aircraft departing and flying around airport B, so my announcement was for both airports to let the other pilots know that I was out there.

I didn't appreciate the CFI scolding me over the radio and I told him, "I'll be calling you." After landing, I called him up and told him that was extremely unprofessional and uncalled for as I was utilizing the CTAF as it's meant to be used. He told me that he apologized and didn't mean to come across in the way he did, but wanted to make the point not to tie up the frequency for other aircraft that are in the immediate traffic pattern and I responded that the couple of transmissions I made were not stepping on anyone nor did they pose a safety hazard. He apologized and that was the end of that. Needless to say, I don't ever plan to use him as a CFI, nor did he have valid reasoning behind his statements.
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Well, it is a Common Traffic Advisory Frequency. You were simply announcing advising of traffic on the frequency for everyone in the area. Seems like the perfect use for a CTAF to me. Is there anything in the AIM that says you should only use the CTAF when entering/within/exiting the pattern at an airport?

I had a near miss over Lawrence Kansas a couple weeks ago. I was southwest of the airport boundary area by a couple nm giving my nephew a sight-seeing trip over the town of Lawrence and the university. I had announced my position and altitude every so often in case someone was inbound to the airport. I was making right turns so my PAX could see better, I briefly leveled out over a radio tower to point out how hard they can be to see and the need to be looking out your window at stuff. The moment I leveled out there was a Cherokee about 100 yards directly off my left wing and closing. I saw he was going to pass beneath me (but not by much), I was about 2,000 AGL and the tower is a 700ft tower. I didn't even have a chance to react really. All I could to was tell my nephew to look out his right window. WOAH he yelled as the Piper flew directly under us.

I like to think that had he been monitoring the local CTAF he would have heard me. If nothing else the fact that I was in a big steady looping turn I was more visible to him but I certainly couldn't see him. But, if our pilot's seats were switched I would have steered clear of guy maneuvering and to whom I wasn't speaking on the radio. I was not a happy pilot at that point.
 
labbadabba said:
Well, it is a Common Traffic Advisory Frequency. You were simply announcing advising of traffic on the frequency for everyone in the area. Seems like the perfect use for a CTAF to me. Is there anything in the AIM that says you should only use the CTAF when entering/within/exiting the pattern at an airport?

I had a near miss over Lawrence Kansas a couple weeks ago. I was southwest of the airport boundary area by a couple nm giving my nephew a sight-seeing trip over the town of Lawrence and the university. I had announced my position and altitude every so often in case someone was inbound to the airport. I was making right turns so my PAX could see better, I briefly leveled out over a radio tower to point out how hard they can be to see and the need to be looking out your window at stuff. The moment I leveled out there was a Cherokee about 100 yards directly off my left wing and closing. I saw he was going to pass beneath me (but not by much), I was about 2,000 AGL and the tower is a 700ft tower. I didn't even have a chance to react really. All I could to was tell my nephew to look out his right window. WOAH he yelled as the Piper flew directly under us.

I like to think that had he been monitoring the local CTAF he would have heard me. If nothing else the fact that I was in a big steady looping turn I was more visible to him but I certainly couldn't see him. But, if our pilot's seats were switched I would have steered clear of guy maneuvering and to whom I wasn't speaking on the radio. I was not a happy pilot at that point.
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I'm familiar with that airspace. Whenever I'm circling the city I announce, too. That's an airport where all the sightseeing is south of the field, right in line with practice approaches inbound from the south.
 
Did the DPE tell you there would be a diversion, or where the diversion will be to? If not I would not have it planned, in my head or even mention it to the DPE. Could **** him off a little bit and throw you I to a complete different scenario than you CFI prepped you for.
 
After we started the "XC", my DPE said, "You checked the weather didn't you?"

"Yes"

"Looks like a line of t storms that wasn't in the forecast is up ahead. I think it's a good idea to wait this one out. Better take us to KXXX."
 
On my check ride I asked whether he (dpe) wanted me to use flight following, he said he didn’t care, but I would have to call atc for simulated lost procedures and call for vectors to the airport. He did it to me under the hood. I had a gps with me but never used it. When it was over he asked me why I did use it. I said I was told he would simulate failure of it. He responded to always use it for now on
 
Matthew said:
After we started the "XC", my DPE said, "You checked the weather didn't you?"

"Yes"

"Looks like a line of t storms that wasn't in the forecast is up ahead. I think it's a good idea to wait this one out. Better take us to KXXX."
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That’s odd. You are only going a few miles. If weather was that close why would have departed?
 
Kritchlow said:
That’s odd. You are only going a few miles. If weather was that close why would have departed?
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Maybe it was just simulated (i.e., imaginary) weather.
 
Yeah, that "unforcast" line of wx was imaginary and was used as the reason for the diversion.
 
I'll often go in the general direction of Victor airways at VFR altitudes, but offset to one side or the other by 3 or 4 miles. At least it feels safer. No substitute for FF, a good scan and close attention to ADS-B traffic. Planes can be anywhere!
 
Matthew said:
Why not just go direct to the first VOR, then airways after that?
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Actually, I have revised this current scenario a bit. For the first leg of this hypothetical trip the visual references are rather sparse. And now the smaller lakes are even tough to spot now being covered by snow. So I will now fly due west about 4 miles (along a major road) and then turn SW onto a VOR radial which is about 3deg off the victor airway. This new radial is a bit easier for visual checkpoints during the first 30miles of the flight. The second leg will definitely be on a airway.
 
TommyG said:
Did the DPE tell you there would be a diversion, or where the diversion will be to? If not I would not have it planned, in my head or even mention it to the DPE. Could **** him off a little bit and throw you I to a complete different scenario than you CFI prepped you for.
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Nope, DPE just gave a route and a set of W&B requests. My CFI however said to expect a diversion early on so I am preparing for that. Given time constraints of the test and how remote the first 30min are I can probably narrow any diversion down to 3 airports within 15 miles of the plan and one just happens to be 8 miles off track just after my 2nd checkpoint. I've been to all 4 airports. The farthest of the 4 is on a different sectional so maybe he'll test me there.
 
The point of the diversion is to make sure you can find the place in an unexpected situation. My diversion was, "Take us to Kxxx". I can't remember the airport now or how far away it was. I did the quick and dirty distance, direction, time, fuel calculations and direction changes accounting for estimated winds aloft. All this didn't take long, and I must have done it right because the DPE said, "Yeah, you got it, grab your hood."
 
FWIW it's worth, you should turn in the general direction of divert airport, then figure out a more exact heading, fuel burn, time, etc.
 
Plan whatever you want, but don't get invested in flying it. You're going to divert within a short time. My check ride, it was 5 minutes into the cross country, when I was directly over the first checkpoint and I identified the second straight ahead. Basically I had just climbed to altitude, had time to find the landmarks and got diverted.
 
Same here as bflynn, cross country was to the first check point which I had purposely chosen very close.
 
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