VFR - cleared into Bravo at or below

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
 
Not sure but I would guess 5500. He's still VFR (Visual Flight RULES).
 
91.159 says "unless otherwise authorized by ATC." Maybe "at or below 6000" counts as such an authorization. :dunno:
 
Isn't 5500 more of a recommendation than a rule?
 
Jaybird180 said:
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

He climbs to 6000 because he wants to be as high as possible to take advantage of massive tailwinds and he knows that ATC can authorize deviations from the normally required VFR cruising altitudes.
 
I get this clearance on a regular basis. First it's at or below 5,600 in the Ogden Delta so you don't run into the F16s going in and out of Hill at 6,000 and then into Salt Lake bravo at some non VFR altitude. Personally, I would fly an "at or below 6,000" clearance at 5,900 to give myself a little margin of error but your piloting skills are probably better.

Just remember "resume own nav" does not mean you can change altitudes.
 
MachFly said:
Isn't 5500 more of a recommendation than a rule?
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What do you think?

==============================
§ 91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall...
==============================

Is that a rule or a recommendation?
 
Jaybird180 said:
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

Question: How do you climb to 6000 when you initially give your altitude as 9500?
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Question: How do you climb to 6000 when you initially give your altitude as 9500?
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You don't.

Jaybird180 said:
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...
 
midlifeflyer said:
What do you think?

==============================
§ 91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.
Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall...
==============================

Is that a rule or a recommendation?
Click to expand...

Neither. In the world of the Feds, use of the word "shall" is a Requirement and not open to negotiation unless you can convince your Contracting Officer otherwise. In this case Requirement = Rule.
 
"Request Bravo 9,500" could be read two ways.

1. I,m at 9,500 and request to penetrate the Bravo, or

2. I'm at some other (lower) altitude and would like to penetrate the Bravo and also climb to 9,500.

What's missing is the initial altitude. If the OP had phrased it as, "Approach, wise guy 1234 over the sawmill at 3,000 westbound to KABC, request Bravo and climb to 9,500" it would make sense.
 
Jaybird180 said:
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

Ok, you have me confused with the guy descending out of 9,5 for 6 to transition through the B when he wants higher, I'd just climb above.

However as for the last question, he can choose either since he was cleared at or below. I would use an even altitude within the B since it's positive control airspace and he will be used to people being on 1000' altitudes.
 
Captain said:
"Request Bravo 9,500" could be read two ways.

1. I,m at 9,500 and request to penetrate the Bravo, or

2. I'm at some other (lower) altitude and would like to penetrate the Bravo and also climb to 9,500.

What's missing is the initial altitude. If the OP had phrased it as, "Approach, wise guy 1234 over the sawmill at 3,000 westbound to KABC, request Bravo and climb to 9,500" it would make sense.
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nitpick- Approach: Unable, maintain VFR at current altitude:rofl:
 
But I gt your point. It just happens to be a bit redundant where I come from as they already know where I am with the words "radar contact, remain clear of Bravo".
 
Sorry, VFR alts don't start until above 3,000. That makes 3,000 a valid altitude for any direction.
 
Captain said:
Sorry, VFR alts don't start until above 3,000. That makes 3,000 a valid altitude for any direction.
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Really? I haven't looked at that one in a while. The way I recall it VFR altitudes start above 2500'. IIRC that would make 3000' an east bound IFR altitude. Oh, but I guess that would only be true at or near sea level since the beginning altitude is AGL isn't it?
 
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Jaybird180 said:
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

Climb just a little bit higher and pass right over the Bravo without needing permission, and the "massive tailwind" might be even more massive..:D
 
Henning said:
Really? I haven't looked at that one in a while. The way I recall it VFR altitudes start above 2500'. IIRC that would make 3000' an east bound IFR altitude. Oh, but I guess that would only be true at or near sea level since the beginning altitude is AGL isn't it?
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Need to go look at it again. VFR cruising altitudes start at "more than 3000 feet above the surface" 91.159
 
Henning said:
Really? I haven't looked at that one in a while. The way I recall it VFR altitudes start above 2500'. IIRC that would make 3000' an east bound IFR altitude. Oh, but I guess that would only be true at or near sea level since the beginning altitude is AGL isn't it?
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Taking Rons lead I dug in and found a real reference. The issue is covered in FAR 91.159 and it says:

91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.

Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:

(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and—

(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or

(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).

(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91–276, 68 FR 61321, Oct. 27, 2003; 68 FR 70133, Dec. 17, 2003]
 
Jaybird180 said:
nitpick- Approach: Unable, maintain VFR at current altitude:rofl:
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Oh, I see what you meant...you were tying my 'westbound' to the 9.500 and not the 3,000. Yeah, I should have said eastbound.
 
N801BH said:
Climb just a little bit higher and pass right over the Bravo without needing permission, and the "massive tailwind" might be even more massive..:D
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There's my plan, if I wanted those tail winds, 11,500 and go:D
 
All the New York Bravo ends at 7,000 msl. Weird, I know.
 
Maybe Denver has a Couple thousand on loan from NY.
 
I think LAX lost some altitude in one of the real estate collapses too.
 
I'd say "will descend and maintain VFR at 6000, cleared into class B"
 
Jaybird180 said:
On an eastbound flight

Pilot: Approach Wiseguy234 request Bravo altitude Niner thousand fife hundred, destination Atlantic Ocean

Approach: Wiseguy234 cleared into Bravo at or below 6000, expect handoff in 10 mins for your request

Wiseguy234 wants to take advantage of massive tailwinds and wants to climb as high as possible. In this case does he climb to 6000 and hold or stop at 5500 in observance of VFR cruising altitudes?
Click to expand...

I know I'm late to the party, you were given at or below 6 with an expectation that you would get higher on then next frequency, I'd go to 6.
 
Jaybird180 said:
nitpick- Approach: Unable, maintain VFR at current altitude:rofl:
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Ha! Been flying near PHX I see!

Every flight past PHX I've been on there has been a hand off from ABQ center to PHX approach, then about 3-4 minutes later I get "radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" even if I am just flying by on the way to California.

Once they asked if I could accept a vector to the south as I was near (but outside) an approach corridor ... I said sure, and took the vector ... they then indicated they couldn't get me on radar (was at 9500) and services terminated:mad: Went back to ABQ center and the controller just let out a big sigh and said that was usual for the area (meaning the controllers).
 
Huh, strange, maybe it's just transiting planes? I always get great service out of PHX and the surrounds but it's always as destination. My typical transit route will take me N of PHX by a good margin. I even went DVT-PHX-DVT to pick up a friend and got zipped right in straight and tight on a high right base and dropped me right in on the left for easy landing and exit direct to Cutter, sweet. Cutter gave me a car to pick up my buddy, didn't charge me any fees nor did they bother to pump the 4-7 gallons a side it would take; the dude just waved it off, not worth the bother. Right back out having me turn N about 500' which was about mid field, straight out and back for DVT.
 
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If you are cleared into Bravo at 6000, fly at 6000 if you want to. ATC trumps hemispheric rule. If he had a problem with you at 6k, he would not have authorized it. You do not need to fly at 5900 unless you cannot hold an altitude to PPL standards.

This is not to be confused with a Bravo shelf that you, on your own, are trying to stay beneath. If the bottom of the shelf is at 3k, ATC does not want you at 2900. They want you 2500 or below, probably preferring 2000 or below.
 
alfadog said:
This is not to be confused with a Bravo shelf that you, on your own, are trying to stay beneath. If the bottom of the shelf is at 3k, ATC does not want you at 2900. They want you 2500 or below, probably preferring 2000 or below.
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Well, depending on what lies below that shelf, they may or may not get that. I can think of quite a few spots where you sneak through a 500' slot 1200', but typically the know whats up.
 
alfadog said:
This is not to be confused with a Bravo shelf that you, on your own, are trying to stay beneath. If the bottom of the shelf is at 3k, ATC does not want you at 2900. They want you 2500 or below, probably preferring 2000 or below.
Click to expand...

Why would ATC care how far you are beneath the shelf?
 
roncachamp said:
Why would ATC care how far you are beneath the shelf?
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Because, in my example, they consider the airspace 3000' and above to belong to them and if you are at 2900', you are limiting their use to maybe 3500'.
 
alfadog said:
Because, in my example, they consider the airspace 3000' and above to belong to them and if you are at 2900', you are limiting their use to maybe 3500'.
Click to expand...
So? You think that wasn't taken into account when they set the floor?
 
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