Very Sad!

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
5,229
Location
Mount Pleasant,Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Doc
I am sitting at a large GA airport on a PERFECT flying day. 65degees F perfectly calm CAVU. I am killing time before a dinner meeting so away from my own airport and plane.

I have been sitting here 45 minutes and have yet to see or hear a plane. I took lessons at this airport 20 years ago and it would have been a beehive on a day like today.

Very sad!
 
It's going to get dark soon. First day of the week - maybe everyone flew this weekend and /or saving their pennies to do a nice trip!
 
Wait til Avgas follows the trend in mogas this year as whatever little demand there is for avgas increases into the spring....the price of mogas, for this time of the year, is higher than it has ever been before and is predicted to be above $4.00/gal. this spring. Avgas? Who knows...go to some of the major fields and check out the fuel prices.

Fuel price report-AIRNAV

Summary of fuel prices at 3602 FBOs nationwide
FBO-Rgn/# Avg Min Max
Nationwide3602 $5.73 $3.60 $11.00
Alaska71 $6.17 $5.11 $11.00
Central345 $5.60 $4.29 $8.14
Eastern357 $6.03 $4.65 $9.57
Great Lakes730 $5.76 $4.47 $8.93
New England142 $5.98 $4.89 $8.17
Northwest Mtn381 $5.65 $4.49 $7.79
Southern655 $5.69 $4.29 $9.13
Southwest561 $5.51 $3.60 $8.17
Western-Pac360 $5.82 $4.67 $8.40

Add on additional potential user fees, local fuel taxes, landing fees, and it's no wonder that used aircraft prices are in the dumper.

Sheesh don't get me started on this stuff......
 
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Someone posted up a graph somewhere showing that there has been little rise in actual avgas prices in the last couple decades. Yeah, it was cheaper when I started out, but money bought more then too.
 
Heck, I can't get the premium unleaded I need for my car for $3.60!
 
$11.00 per gallon? Do they have one of those little punch card things like they do at propane shops where on your 10th fill up you get a free airplane or do they just give you a small gold brick each time you fill up?

AirDC said:
Anyone in the Southwest want to fill up a tanker of that $3.60 AvGas and drive to DC for us? Thanks!
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That gives me an idea for a small business. Get an older truck/tanker trailer and start bootlegging fuel across borders.
 
I just filled up my experimental with 60 gallons of premium auto fuel for 3.12 a gallon.... I am afraid I will NEVER see that happen again either.:nonod::sad:

Ben.
 
Things were busy as usual at KADS. I lifted off at 4:30 yesterday behind a Stearman and the twin from ATP. I know that ADS can be intimidating to unfamiliar GA pilots but it really is a neat airport and it I think training in a busy environment has been good for my skills. I would encourage anyone to visit ADS and see just how busy a single runway airport can get. The controllers at approach and in the tower do a terrific job jockeying all the traffic.

Two things still stand out about the Stearman. #1 the remarkable sound #2 It took off in about 250 ft.

My favorite oddball plane on the field is a Beechcraft Starship. It is visually stunning and said to be one of the only remaining Starships still flying.

Bill D.
 
txnightster said:
Things were busy as usual at KADS. I lifted off at 4:30 yesterday behind a Stearman and the twin from ATP. I know that ADS can be intimidating to unfamiliar GA pilots but it really is a neat airport and it I think training in a busy environment has been good for my skills. I would encourage anyone to visit ADS and see just how busy a single runway airport can get. The controllers at approach and in the tower do a terrific job jockeying all the traffic.
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I agree about KADS. I go there quite often and it always seems busy. Lots of small airplanes.
 
I instructed at Boeing Field in 1978. The east pattern would be full of trainers coming an going and some doing touch and go's.

I asked the controllers at a tower visit "How many airplanes can you control at once in the pattern." They actually had a number. It was 13. Above that and they were saturated. KBFI was the 9th busiest airport in the world at the time.

Sometimes when I wait for takeoff at an uncontrolled airport I remember back to the BFI days. The controllers would clear2 or 3 airplanes in the time I wait for a good opportunity to go.
 
Statement from the KADS Site: "Addison Airport (ADS) is located in the Town of Addison, approximately 15 minutes north of downtown Dallas. ADS is comprised of 366 acres and boasts a 7200-foot runway. With approximately 177,000 operations annually, and ADS is the busiest general aviation airport in Texas."

177,000 annually averages out to 484 per day. Yikes! I wonder what percentage is GA as opposed to charter or training. Let's just hope they keep letting us little guys land in front of the waiting G 5's.
 
kgruber said:
The east pattern would be full of trainers coming an going and some doing touch and go's.
I asked the controllers at a tower visit "How many airplanes can you control at once in the pattern." They actually had a number. It was 13. Above that and they were saturated. KBFI was the 9th busiest airport in the world at the time.
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That sounds a bit like Sullivan County when I was flying in New England in the 80's. Uncontrolled, nice huge airport with a 6000ft runway on a hilltop. Flight instruction from all over. The occasional nordo, new student solo's, practice instrument approaches. Some charters. Weekends were routinely 6-8 planes constantly in the pattern plus planes coming and going.

This will give the current culture of infinite safety and ideal by the book procedures at all costs blah blah types a heart attack: We were good at spacing ourselves and cooperating with everyone to keep things moving. Too many planes meant extending downwind then extend upwind if necessary. If you got caught up behind a slower plane and couldn't stay behind him, you side stepped to the outside of the pattern by about 200 feet and slid up beside the other plane until he turned base. Occasionally you swapped places in the pattern when you outran the guy in front of you. (A king air behind a CE150 is just not gonna happen) When planes got backed up on the ground, someone on short final would go around to keep the speed up and let them out.
That was the good life. We had fun, everyone got along, when something got messy we sorted it out, nobody bumped into each other or got hurt, no calls to FSS to go play around, all was good in the world. Too bad we can't do that nowadays.
 
txnightster said:
Statement from the KADS Site: "Addison Airport (ADS) is located in the Town of Addison, approximately 15 minutes north of downtown Dallas. ADS is comprised of 366 acres and boasts a 7200-foot runway. With approximately 177,000 operations annually, and ADS is the busiest general aviation airport in Texas."

177,000 annually averages out to 484 per day. Yikes! I wonder what percentage is GA as opposed to charter or training. Let's just hope they keep letting us little guys land in front of the waiting G 5's.
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When I'm in Texas I am also based out of KADS. My sense is there is training, but just coming and going from the flight schools. Unless they are slow they don't allow training (as in a bunch of 172's in the pattern) at KADS. Pretty fair amount of charter and cargo, but also a lot of owners that still use their aircraft to go somewhere.

In times past it wasn't unusual to be at least 8-10 back for takeoff on a nice Saturday.

Good experience IMO. Many aircraft approaching from all sides at the same time into a ~4 mile ring, including everything from a skycatcher to an MD-80, makes it interesting, especially IFR.
 
GA follows the economy and the middle class pretty closely. Texas is the last place where America still survives, so no wonder a 'burb of Dallas has got some airplanes left. Not for a long though. Van Nuys had 20 airplanes in the pattern back in the last century.
 
fgcason said:
$11.00 per gallon? Do they have one of those little punch card things like they do at propane shops where on your 10th fill up you get a free airplane or do they just give you a small gold brick each time you fill up?
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The gold bricks are from the last guy who crapped one when he saw his fuel bill. :)
 
zaitcev said:
GA follows the economy and the middle class pretty closely. Texas is the last place where America still survives, so no wonder a 'burb of Dallas has got some airplanes left. Not for a long though. Van Nuys had 20 airplanes in the pattern back in the last century.
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I agree about following the economy and middle class but not about Texas. Centennial Airport, my home airport is also quite busy.
Centennial Airport (IATA: APA, ICAO: KAPA), is conveniently located in the center of The Denver Tech Center, surrounded by 23 individual business parks, and only 13 miles from downtown Denver. The airport opened on May 13, 1967 and has grown steadily since that time to become the 3rd busiest General Aviation airport and among the top 25 busiest of all types of airports.
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I was also pleasantly surprised at how active Petaluma Airport was the day I went flying with Kimberly, and that was all small airplanes. On the other hand there are many small town airports on the Great Plains which have always seemed deserted to me, even in the 1990s when the economy was good.
 
Everskyward said:
I agree about following the economy and middle class but not about Texas. Centennial Airport, my home airport is also quite busy.I was also pleasantly surprised at how active Petaluma Airport was the day I went flying with Kimberly, and that was all small airplanes. On the other hand there are many small town airports on the Great Plains which have always seemed deserted to me, even in the 1990s when the economy was good.
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Manassas (KHEF) is also quite busy. A significant part of that is related to DCA being effectively closed to GA and the impact of the FRZ, but there is quite a bit of traffic. They're looking at additional runway improvements to accomodate more large GA.
 
txnightster said:
Statement from the KADS Site: "Addison Airport (ADS) is located in the Town of Addison, approximately 15 minutes north of downtown Dallas. ADS is comprised of 366 acres and boasts a 7200-foot runway. With approximately 177,000 operations annually, and ADS is the busiest general aviation airport in Texas."

177,000 annually averages out to 484 per day. Yikes! I wonder what percentage is GA as opposed to charter or training. Let's just hope they keep letting us little guys land in front of the waiting G 5's.
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I visited the tower at KDTO this past Saturday and had a nice chat with the controllers. I was told that for a contract tower, KDTO is in the top 5 for the busiest in the nation, and seeing 800 operations in a day is not uncommon.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I visited the tower at KDTO this past Saturday and had a nice chat with the controllers. I was told that for a contract tower, KDTO is in the top 5 for the busiest in the nation, and seeing 800 operations in a day is not uncommon.
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Mike,

After my recent success and confidence building flying over and to a controlled airport, I was getting my nerve up enough to try Denton and come to give you a visit. If it's that buisy, you might have to meet me in a pasture somewhere in the area instead.:D
 
I flew last night, Atlanta (FTY), my mechanic was bringing the 182 back after annual and was late, had to adjust the prop govenor.:rolleyes: Anyway, I got to the FBO around 5:15 and he called running late. The ramp was BUSY, the staff said it was as busy as they had been in weeks!:D A couple 172's with students flying, a couple Citation X's:D and finally my 182 a little after 6:00. When I came back from dropping him off around 7:15, I was number 2 behind a Falcon of some kind, so our airport was busy yesterday. Not sure about today. Actually another airplane was entering the pattern at CNI when I was heading home, someone else getting a little flying time on a beautiful night! :D:D
 
txnightster said:
Statement from the KADS Site: "Addison Airport (ADS) is located in the Town of Addison, approximately 15 minutes north of downtown Dallas. ADS is comprised of 366 acres and boasts a 7200-foot runway. With approximately 177,000 operations annually, and ADS is the busiest general aviation airport in Texas."

177,000 annually averages out to 484 per day. Yikes! I wonder what percentage is GA as opposed to charter or training. Let's just hope they keep letting us little guys land in front of the waiting G 5's.
Click to expand...

FWIW, I've been writing an app to slice and dice FAA data. The top 10 GA-only airports (ie, not Part 139 certified) in terms of annual traffic count according to FAA data are:

KVNY, Van Nuys, CA (504,502 total operations: 16,408 air taxi, 155,420 local GA, 332,117 transient GA, 557 Military)
KDVT, Deer Valley, Phoenix, AZ (376,504 total, 284 "commercial", 6,217 local GA, 236,853 transient GA, 133,150 military)
KFFZ, Falcon Field, Mesa, AZ (319,419 total, 3819 air taxi, 178,066 local GA, 135,382 transient GA, 2,152 military)
KAPA, Centennial, Denver, CO (283,186 total, 31,308 air taxi, 124,264 local GA, 119,049 transient GA, 8,565 military)
KFOK, Gabreski, Westhampton Beach, NY (260,237 total, 2,492 air taxi, 40,059 local GA, 204,489 transient GA, 13,197 military)
KHIO, Portland-Hillsboro, OR (253,847 total, 9,561 air taxi, 160,261 local GA, 83,381 transient GA, 644 military)
KSEE, Gillespie, San Diego, CA (244,475 total, 63 air taxi, 150,086 local GA, 94,306 transient GA, 20 military)
KDWH, David Wayne Hooks, Houston, TX (237,245 total, 2,552 air taxi, 137,725 local GA, 94,558 transient GA, 2,410 military)
KRHV, Reid-Hillview, San Jose, CA (230,000 total, 138,521 local GA, 91,479 transient GA)
KRVS, Jones, Tulsa, OK (209,328 total, 45 "commercial", 979 air taxi, 105,548 local GA, 102,660 transient GA, 96 military)
 
Something's wrong with the data. We don't have anywhere near 23 military operations per day (dividing your number by 365) at KAPA.

There are transient military aircraft and an approved parking area, along with the few flights up from USAFA every day or two that shoot practice approaches that don't land (I know that counts as an "operation" in these numbers), but something is out of whack there.

I listen to my own LiveATC feed to know that number is busted somehow... Not quite sure how.

Maybe transients that clip the Class D headed for KBKF? Still seems significantly too high.
 
denverpilot said:
Something's wrong with the data. We don't have anywhere near 23 military operations per day (dividing your number by 365) at KAPA.

There are transient military aircraft and an approved parking area, along with the few flights up from USAFA every day or two that shoot practice approaches that don't land (I know that counts as an "operation" in these numbers), but something is out of whack there.

I listen to my own LiveATC feed to know that number is busted somehow... Not quite sure how.

Maybe transients that clip the Class D headed for KBKF? Still seems significantly too high.
Click to expand...

A few potential reasons for this:

1) Keep in mind that you probably won't hear the airplane side of the military traffic, and you may not hear the tower side either, depending on whether they're broadcasting on both VHF and UHF simultaneously when talking to the military birds or not.

2) According to the data, that number is from 12/31/2010. But, probably not much has changed since then. However, could there have been any specific events (higher training numbers due to an upcoming deployment of a local unit, etc) that would have made the numbers higher in 2010?

3) The source of the data is FAA Form 5010-3. The directions for filling out that form contained in Advisory Circular 150/5200-35A state: "12-month count of operations. An operation is either a takeoff or a landing. Obtain the best estimate from the airport manager, the pilot registration book, or the ATCT." Now, considering that this could be simply an airport manager's estimate, based on who knows what, well, there ya go. However, it would seem that the airport manager would simply use data from your tower, so it may be a lot more accurate than you'd think.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
1) Keep in mind that you probably won't hear the airplane side of the military traffic, and you may not hear the tower side either, depending on whether they're broadcasting on both VHF and UHF simultaneously when talking to the military birds or not.
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Will check with the tower folks, but AFAIK they are not UHF equipped.

flyingcheesehead said:
2) According to the data, that number is from 12/31/2010. But, probably not much has changed since then. However, could there have been any specific events (higher training numbers due to an upcoming deployment of a local unit, etc) that would have made the numbers higher in 2010?
Click to expand...

Local units land at KBKF. Nothing more than transients at KAPA, and fairly rare. Most common reason I've heard is that Navy guys get per-diem at KAPA and have to stay in base housing at KBKF or KCOS.

flyingcheesehead said:
3) The source of the data is FAA Form 5010-3. The directions for filling out that form contained in Advisory Circular 150/5200-35A state: "12-month count of operations. An operation is either a takeoff or a landing. Obtain the best estimate from the airport manager, the pilot registration book, or the ATCT." Now, considering that this could be simply an airport manager's estimate, based on who knows what, well, there ya go. However, it would seem that the airport manager would simply use data from your tower, so it may be a lot more accurate than you'd think.
Click to expand...

Or a lot more inaccurate. :)
 
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