Using unsecured WiFi a crime now?

[alaskaflyer]

OK, a poll: Do you think that connecting to the internet via unsecured WiFi routers should be considered a form of theft? Read the article and see what you think.

Come on, we all have done it

My opinion: either secure them properly or don't whine about it.

Edit: I'm quite aware of the fact that this guy is a loser but I'm intrigued about the actual issue.

 

[tdager]

So I can walk up and use your water hose? I mean you DID leave it outside connected to you the spigot.

It is not yours, do not use it.

 

[tonycondon]

My opinion: either secure them properly or don't whine about it.

Edit: I'm quite aware of the fact that this guy is a loser but I'm intrigued about the actual issue.

I agree, on both counts.

 

[alaskaflyer]

OK, but to put a wrench into your example (and it goes along with the story) how 'bout if the hose is attached to the taxpayer-funded and operated library building?

 

[jkaduk]

So I can walk up and use your water hose? I mean you DID leave it outside connected to you the spigot.

It is not yours, do not use it.

Going to the neighbor to use their water is not the same as radio waves coming into your house. If their sprinkler is getting onto your lawn are you going to gather it up and bring in back?

 

[jesse]

IMO if you don't secure it you are giving people the permission to use it. *IF* you secure it and someone bypasses that security that is when I would consider it a crime.

 

[JohnR]

Secure them properly, or don't whine about it.

Amen, brother! You almost sound like a conservative.

 

[KennyFlys]

Amen, brother! You almost sound like a conservative.

Megadittos!

 

[Ken Ibold]

You can't compare it to a water hose because the wireless signal is fixed and perishable, whereas the water is charged for by the gallon. I would say if you tap into someone's wireless in a way that causes them no harm, then no foul. But if you commandeered the signal such that you reduced their enjoyment of the product they paid for, then yes, that is theft.

 

[mikea]

You can't compare it to a water hose because the wireless signal is fixed and perishable, whereas the water is charged for by the gallon. I would say if you tap into someone's wireless in a way that causes them no harm, then no foul. But if you commandeered the signal such that you reduced their enjoyment of the product they paid for, then yes, that is theft.

I sometimes turn off my own computers when I want to allow the maximum bandwidth for a given thing I'm doing. If you hop on my WiFi you're costing me bandwidth which is a limited resource.

 

[SCCutler]

Yabut.

Securing your WiFi from unwanted access (other than dedicated packet-sniffing hackers, about whom we are not speaking) is trivially easy.

One supposes that, if the "interloper" is using the signal pervasively, in lieu of buying his or her own access, it might be viewed differently, but so long as the connection used is used (1) as an occasional thing, and (2) involves no snooping into the network of the "host," I see no harm in it.

Face it, we are on the verge of Internet access being something which the absence of constitutes a substantial handicap, and there is still no consistently reliable means of getting connected when you are away from your lair.

So, if someone leaves their WAP open for the occasional use of others, it's a neighborly thing.

One imagines that those most opposed to such access, and who wish for the innocent use thereof to be criminalized, might well be also engaged in the business of selling (at substantial cost) connections...

...say, like the Boston Airport's objection to Continental Airlines providing WiFi access to its Presidents' Club members.

 

[gismo]

I sometimes turn off my own computers when I want to allow the maximum bandwidth for a given thing I'm doing. If you hop on my WiFi you're costing me bandwidth which is a limited resource.

I think the point is whether or not you've taken due diligence WRT protecting your signal and even that's a stretch (but a legally sanctioned one). You cannot display a valuable painting on the outside of your house and require passers-by to avert their eyes or pay a fee and use of an unsecured WiFi port is no different logically. Another example would be making it a crime to listen to an outdoor rock concert from a neighboring property without paying admission to the concert.

And FWIW, IME cities create unenforceable laws all the time and they stay on the books until someone challenges them.

 

[alaskaflyer]

For those of you that have never tried it, go to the center of any typical neighborhood of relatively high home density and then search for WAPs from your laptop or wireless device. You might (if you haven't tried it before) be shocked how many are available - most probably because the owners have no idea what they are doing when they set up their systems.

When I was staying at a condo during my instrument training my roommate regularly had 5-6 open WAPs to choose from on his laptop from the back deck.

What kills me in the story is that this was a public library where internet access is free anyway. If they didn't want people with laptops accessing their WAP then why do they have a WAP at all? Why does it matter if the library is open or closed? Tell me that they aren't using a wireless router to network their desktop computers and then complaining about security breaches...

 

[KennyFlys]

I used to pull up outside the same condo complex in midtown Atlanta a few times a week. I got my mail, checked other things and just surfed for junk while killing time. If I had the smarts for it, I'm sure I could have hacked into whatever computer was also connected to that router. But, all I wanted was a connection without having to head to the nearest Kinkos.

Now, I have an aircard. Soooo much easier!

 

[wbarnhill]

1) What's sad is that so many people don't realize it or don't care when they setup their wireless.

2) A lot of computers will auto-connect to unsecured WiFi. My work laptop will sometimes connect to my neighbor. I actually have to change settings to force it to NOT try to connect to the unsecured hot spot.

3) Open wifi networks are an absolute godsend for people who want your personal info. Sitting in my living room with ettercap running, I can watch IM conversations, email traffic, and various websites being accessed. (FYI: You can search for Man In The Middle Attacks or ARP Poisoning to find more information about this....) If I REALLY wanted to, I could even start intercepting SSL traffic and with the mindset of users "Eh, just click yes", even a warning about the SSL cert wouldn't stop them from punching in their info on a website.

So folks, do yourself a favor and at least put WEP on your WiFi. Or even better, WEP and MAC filtering. Most wardrivers will pass up a WEP connection for someone who is actually just broadcasting an open signal.

Of course, I'm still waiting on the person who gets charged with downloading kiddie porn or who is sued by the music industry for downloading music, and uses the excuse "Someone must've been on my WiFi!!!!"

 

[cwyckham]

The example of the public library was just weird since they're offering the service. More interesting the question of your neighbor.

In the US, most people have unlimited download (not so in NZ, unfortunately), but everyone has limited bandwidth. If you're sucking their bandwidth, then you are impacting them and that is wrong. If you happen to know they go to bed at 9 pm or are away for the weekend, then no harm, no foul.

It's tempting to say that they haven't exercised due dilligence, but I'm not allowed to steal a car just because they left the key in the ignition either.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My reading of the article is that they nailed the guy because he was in the library parking lot after hours, and that's the only law he broke.

The whole impounding the laptop thing does seem excessive.

 

[NC Pilot]

IMO if you don't secure it you are giving people the permission to use it. *IF* you secure it and someone bypasses that security that is when I would consider it a crime.

So, by your reasoning, if I left the keys in my car and it was unlocked it would be OK for you to use it? To use anything without permission that you did not pay for is theft. It is your actions that are stealing, not the lack of security.
In the article, the use of bandwidth cost the library money. This was monitored during business hours, but it was not when the library was shut down.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I sometimes turn off my own computers when I want to allow the maximum bandwidth for a given thing I'm doing. If you hop on my WiFi you're costing me bandwidth which is a limited resource.

I agree completely. But someone who is not a power user (ie most people) who either is not using the computer at the time or doing so in a way that the lost bandwidth is irrelevant has not lost any capability, and therefore has no damages.

 

[tom clark]

stealing wifi huh. i guess if you don't want me on your wifi, just put a password on it. if its not password protected i'll assume you are offering it to the world. and i fail to see any comparison with me taking your car, taking water from your garden hose or plugging an extension cord into one of your outlets to run all my junk. and no, i don't think i have the right to hack into your bank account and steal all your money either. get real. or maybe i'll have YOU arrested for running your wifi radio waves through my house and through my air without my permission! tc

btw, afaic, the only party thats really harmed is the isp. they sold your neighbor internet access for a set price hes invited all the neighbors in. not unlike sharing your cable tv with your neighbor. i expect if you see some push for legislation it will be from the providers, not the users. imho, tc

 

[JohnR]

To me, having an unsecured wifi is like using a CB radio (remember those?) or walkie talkie. Tell a friend via walkie talkie that you're having a party. When ten people show up who overheard you, don't be surprised.

Another analogy might be the neighbors cutting across your front yard as they walk to the store. Technically it's trespassing, but no real harm is done. You can talk to them, but is it worth it?

As for the keys in the car analogy, the difference is I wouldn't have a clue how to do you any damage with your wifi, but I could plow your car into a crowd of people then smash it into a wall. And your car is a higher value asset than your internet service.

I think we're in an interim phase, and eventually most internet service will be like Cingular or Vonage's wireless service - it's there wherever you go, wherever they have coverage. If it weren't so expensive, I'd have Cingular's service right now.

 

[Greebo]

Having an unsecured WiFi is at best, foolish, at worse, monumentally stupid. If you set up an *EASY* home wifi network (ie: built in wireless adapter and router), that means you've taken all that firewall protection the router offers and thrown it out the window. Its leaving your doors wide open at night, going out of town, and putting up a sign on your front lawn saying, "FREE TV INSIDE".

The walking across the lawn analogy doesn't fit - its more like them walking through your house. Mabye they mean no harm, but maybe they're going going to scan your computer for open ports and see what else they can find on the way through. Oh, but you have a firewall to proect you - but you just let them through the hardware firewall with open arms... if you have a software firewall, thats good, but am I the hacker supposed now to believe you take that seriously??

Stealing unsecured wireless is "Entering". Its criminal, for sure, but its not nearly as bad as Breaking and Entering, and frankly, if you make it easy for criminals to enter, you're both guilty of something criminal - criminal stupidity.

So IMO it should be a crime, but with minor penalties.

 

[EdFred]

I was noticing some slowness here at the office. We are unable to get super high bandwidth, and only have like 256k or something like that. I looked out the window, and there was some guy sitting in a car in the parking lot. I hadn't worried about securing the network, because we occasionally have reps that come in and hook into the net. So I checked the attached devices on the wireless, and noticed one that shouldn't have been there. So I put the MAC limiting on there and within 2 minutes he left. Now it's a mild inconvenience to get the MAC address from anyone who I want to allow to use it.

Personally, I don't think it is a crime to use the wireless connection. I do think it a crime to browse other computers that might be on that network. That's where I can see the breaking and entering. If I go to PoA on someone else's network, how am I breaking and entering?

 

[Dart]

I live in a small subdivision and my back yard is 50 acres of woods. Pre-wireless, guests had ocassionally used unsecured networks to check e-mail and stuff, nothing abusive. So when I went to wireless I did not secure it, for the same reason, I don't mind sharing.

Well, three months in someone hacked my router and secured it so I could not use it. I knew exactly what was up and pulled the plug (I don't leave unattended machines "on"). It took hours on the phone with Linksys (who were very helpful once I reached America).

Moral: The human heart is depraved. It will turn all good to ill. It is now secured, to the detriment of others who will no longer be able to do a quick check.

We have enough things labeled "crimes". Just caveat emptor will do here.

 

[SCCutler]

Dart:

Leave unsecured, but do change the admin password.

I had a problem with employee using wifi to get around firewall and content filtering; on the wifi network he was connecting to, the psw had never been changed, so I logged in and renamed the AP "SecureThisAccessPoint" or something like that.

It was done in a day.

 

[tdager]

LOL...I wish I lived in the world you did. You people do realize that most people nowadays get a wireless router from their provider and have NO CLUE about its functionality or setup. I just gave an InfoSec training presentation and the vast majority of people had no idea that they needed to secure their wireless.

Sorry people, many average citizens have no idea how to set up a secured network. I guess I am complaining more about the attitudes of those that use the wireless than the unsecured nature of it.

It really IS simple...it is not your wireless, do not use it. Well unless the SSID says "free wireless" or some such, because I do know of a few people that purposely share their wireless, but those are the exceptions not the rule.

 

[wsuffa]

So, by your reasoning, if I left the keys in my car and it was unlocked it would be OK for you to use it? To use anything without permission that you did not pay for is theft. It is your actions that are stealing, not the lack of security.

I agree.

If someone leaves their house doors unlocked, it does not give you the right to enter the house and read their newspapers, watch their TV, or use their fridge.

Because they have an electric outlet on the outside of their house, it doesn't give you the right to use their electricity.... nor do you have the right to walk up on their front porch and settle into their deck chairs.

Likewise, just because a piece of music is recorded in MP3 without DRM, it doesn't give you ownership nor the right to copy it. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yeah, it's really dumb for someone to leave their WAP unprotected. And you do have the right to use the radio frequencies - but you don't have the right to use the service they're paying for.

I would also say that intent is part of it. IOW, if you think you're using your own system but end up on someone elses by mistake (for example, if a dumb cable installer put your WAP and your neighbor's WAP on the same SSID), I'd say you get a pass. But if you go wardriving, I don't.

JMHO. Flame away.

 

[EdFred]

Then keep the signal insude your house. If your signal extends beyond the boundaries of your property - it's fair game. But like I said, if they start hacking computers inside the network or watching conversations and e-mails then I say that's a crime.

 

[wsuffa]

Well unless the SSID says "free wireless" or some such, because I do know of a few people that purposely share their wireless, but those are the exceptions not the rule.

And be very careful right there. There are a number of folks that set up such "free" systems and make them a "man in the middle", sniffing and scarfing passwords and other personal info.

 

[jesse]

Well, three months in someone hacked my router and secured it so I could not use it. I knew exactly what was up and pulled the plug (I don't leave unattended machines "on"). It took hours on the phone with Linksys (who were very helpful once I reached America).

Press the little reset button

Log back in and change the password.

 

[Dart]

Press the little reset button

Log back in and change the password.

Yeah! Now you tell me!

 

[wsuffa]

Press the little reset button

Log back in and change the password.

With a lot of routers, you need to hold the reset button in while turning power on. Then reconfigure the unit.

Linksys may be different.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

I dunno, I just don't think it's that outrageous to hop on somebody else's WAP. (Is that dirty?)

It's not like a car, it's not like a garden hose, it's a radio signal being broadcast from your home and into somebody else's home, car, yard, whatever. If there were to be any law enacted against it (which, frankly, I think is unnecessary, and no law should be enacted, IMO, unless it's necessary), I don't think the punishment should be any harsher nor do I think it should be enforced any more stringently than the laws pertaining to loud music being played in a person's house.

 

[wbarnhill]

And be very careful right there. There are a number of folks that set up such "free" systems and make them a "man in the middle", sniffing and scarfing passwords and other personal info.

Absolutely. A way to watch for those is understand the difference between Ad-Hoc and Access Point. Generally those MITM free systems are ad-hocs, where all traffic has to pass through their laptop. Less setup for the "hacker". You would be appalled at how much information is sent over the internet just in plain text. IM conversations, E-Mails, the websites you visit. If I recall correctly, a few years ago login requests for some IM services used to be plaintext. I think they've all moved over to hashes, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

[wbarnhill]

I dunno, I just don't think it's that outrageous to hop on somebody else's WAP. (Is that dirty?)

It's not like a car, it's not like a garden hose, it's a radio signal being broadcast from your home and into somebody else's home, car, yard, whatever. If there were to be any law enacted against it (which, frankly, I think is unnecessary, and no law should be enacted, IMO, unless it's necessary), I don't think the punishment should be any harsher nor do I think it should be enforced any more stringently than the laws pertaining to loud music being played in a person's house.

The only issue that may arise is one I pointed out earlier in the thread. If someone is on your unsecured WiFi and does something illegal... 1) How will the average user ever know about it, and 2) What happens when the cops want to bust the owner of the WiFi setup?

I think the WiFi systems need to be required to be setup the first time they are used. Make it as simple as possible. Disable the WiFi until the user plugs a Cat5 cable in and tries to surf the internet. Bam, welcome to the setup menu. Ask all the questions necessary to configure the system and warn the user of the risks involved with an open network. After the setup is complete, the user can disconnect their cable and go wireless with the information they just setup (and even have the system save their configuration in a word document for the user to print out or save for future reference if needed).

How hard would that be? I know it'd be a pain to the techies that understand the setup screens, but if we need a way to curtail the actions of the unsavory, then why not go that route?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So I can walk up and use your water hose? I mean you DID leave it outside connected to you the spigot.

This is more like your neighbor throwing his hose over the fence and dragging it into your house and leaving it there. Am I gonna water my plants with it? You bet.

 

[JohnR]

The only issue that may arise is one I pointed out earlier in the thread. If someone is on your unsecured WiFi and does something illegal... 1) How will the average user ever know about it, and 2) What happens when the cops want to bust the owner of the WiFi setup?

Seems like internet crimes are taken seriously about .0001% of the time. It won't be enforced as long as there are murders and rapes consuming the police force's time.

Maybe the default setup for home Wifis should be secure, and you have to make an effort to unsecure it. Or, maybe who the hell cares?

People should be responsible for themselves. This whole thing smacks of WAY too much government nanny-ism.

 

[SCCutler]

AT&T DSL WiFi packages come with a 2Wire Wireless Router / DSL Modem which is, by default, set up to be WEP-enabled. You must specifically choose to disable it, if at all.

 

[AirBaker]

I must say that I will use an open wireless connection when on the road or away from home. I don't download big files, play games, or try to steal confidential information from the host environment.

With that said, I truly do not feel that it is a crime to borrow the open connection. I think what you do with it could be a crime though.

I'd say most connections are not charged by the bandwidth utilized, so the ole 'car with keys in it' or 'waterhose' analogy doesn't work for me.

If you want to borrow my internet, feel free. Try to read my email and I'll smack ya around.

Just my .02

 

[gismo]

I agree.

If someone leaves their house doors unlocked, it does not give you the right to enter the house and read their newspapers, watch their TV, or use their fridge.

Sorry but that just doesn't work for me. Entering someone's home is tresspass, but if the door's unlocked you'd probably have a hard time prosecuting someone for just walking in. In fact I'd bet that if you left the door to your home unlocked and someone came inside, slipped and fell down the stairs, they could win a lawsuit against you. And for a closer analogy, if you parked your car in my garage with the keys in it, I think you'd have a hard time making any theft charges stick if I decided to move it or even drive to the store in it.

Would you charge someone with theft if they read a book by the light coming from the floods on your garage? That's an unsecured EM emission too.