Using tablet to see the mountains?

bobmrg

bobmrg

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Bob Gardner
According to the survivor of the Bonanza that crashed in the North Cascades (as reported in this morning's paper), the pilot's wife was navigating by "using a tablet so that she could see the mountains. Then the GPS failed and....".

The survivor said that they were in the clouds and when they broke into the clear the mountain was straight ahead.

I have no idea what kind of software she was using but my guess is that they had done this before and had gotten away with it. Another avoidable fatal accident.

Bob Gardner
 
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Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Uh oh, children of SVT...
 
bobmrg said:
According to the survivor of the Bonanza that crashed in the North Cascades (as reported in this morning's paper), the pilot's wife was navigating by "using a tablet so that she could see the mountains. Then the GPS failed and....".

The survivor said that they were in the clouds and when they broke into the clear the mountain was straight ahead.

I have no idea what kind of software she was using but my guess is that they had done this before and had gotten away with it. Another avoidable fatal accident.

Bob Gardner
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Or hadn't use it in IMC and got frazzled :dunno:
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Sad story. I don't think the lesson is about the tablet as much as the "get-there-itis" attitude that prompted them to take off into known dicey weather. Maybe the tablet kept them alive a bit longer.

There's a GoFundMe account setup for the surviving teenager, to help replace the necessities she lost in the crash.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

All accidents are avoidable if you extend out the parameters far enough......
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

CT4ME said:
Sad story. I don't think the lesson is about the tablet as much as the "get-there-itis" attitude that prompted them to take off into known dicey weather. Maybe the tablet kept them alive a bit longer.
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On the other hand it may have given them misplaced confidence.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Everskyward said:
Uh oh, children of SVT...
Click to expand...

The problem isn't SVT.

It's that they were illegally flying in IMC without an clearance and clearly weren't abiding by minimum altitudes for their route.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Tim said:
All accidents are avoidable if you extend out the parameters far enough......
Click to expand...

And then some are completely avoidable just by following the regs and not being stupid.

We can pretend "this could happen to anyone" but the truth is, it won't unless you also choose to not follow the regs and be stupid.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Bonchie said:
The problem isn't SVT.
Click to expand...
Not entirely, but we just had a long thread about the subject and it was pointed out that SVT might lure people into doing things they shouldn't such as...

Bonchie said:
It's that they were illegally flying in IMC without an clearance and clearly weren't abiding by minimum altitudes for their route.
Click to expand...

It's just a tool but tools can be misused.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Bonchie said:
And then some are completely avoidable just by following the regs and not being stupid.

We can pretend "this could happen to anyone" but the truth is, it won't unless you also choose to not follow the regs and be stupid.
Click to expand...

Now you know why we tell folks these rules are written in blood.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Everskyward said:
Not entirely, but we just had a long thread about the subject and it was pointed out that SVT might lure people into doing things they shouldn't such as...



It's just a tool but tools can be misused.
Click to expand...

True, my guess is that it had something to do with it. Would they have been in that specific situation if they didn't have SVT or would they have been using the old traditional way of avoiding mountains such as not going or turning back? :dunno:
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Everskyward said:
Not entirely, but we just had a long thread about the subject and it was pointed out that SVT might lure people into doing things they shouldn't [...]
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...what is however also true for many other tools like autopilots, GPS in general or BRS.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Tom-D said:
Now you know why we tell folks these rules are written in blood.
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And how often do they tell us right back that we don't have a clue as to what we're talking about, or, it doesn't apply to them because of some exemption that they've created...

At the end of the day, getting my instrument rating was the best thing I've ever done when I decided I wanted to travel on a time schedule.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Bonchie said:
The problem isn't SVT.

It's that they were illegally flying in IMC without an clearance and clearly weren't abiding by minimum altitudes for their route.
Click to expand...

Or, theoretically, they could have been legal IFR and asked for "radar vectors, direct when able" and then lost comms.

dtuuri
 
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Too many pilots have discovered SVT,it should be used as another tool in the IFR tool box. People are more prone to scud run,when equipped with SVT. The more you get away with marginal visual flying,the more confident you get.
 
The problem was not SVT, the problem was they were using a VFR system to provide IMC service, and it failed on them. The technology of SVT makes IFR easy, but it has to work.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

dtuuri said:
Or, theoretically, they could have been legal IFR and asked for "radar vectors, direct when able" and then lost comms.

dtuuri
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Mr. Bowman did not hold an instrument rating, so that would be hard to pull off. Early news reports used the words "dropped off the radar," but IMHO he was not talking to anyone. There is, as you know, a segment of the pilot population that does not use the services available to them simply because they are not required to do so.

Bob Gardner
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

bobmrg said:
Mr. Bowman did not hold an instrument rating, so that would be hard to pull off. Early news reports used the words "dropped off the radar," but IMHO he was not talking to anyone. There is, as you know, a segment of the pilot population that does not use the services available to them simply because they are not required to do so.

Bob Gardner
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If that's the case, I can't believe he was willing to chance the lives of his wife and granddaughter. So many things were avoidable if done according to the rules.
 
frfly172 said:
Too many pilots have discovered SVT,it should be used as another tool in the IFR tool box. People are more prone to scud run,when equipped with SVT. The more you get away with marginal visual flying,the more confident you get.
Click to expand...

And people were more likely to launch into bad weather they shouldn't of when they got that shiny new dual VOR in their plane.

I'm just saying, we can do this with every new piece of technology that comes out.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

bobmrg said:
Mr. Bowman did not hold an instrument rating, so that would be hard to pull off. Early news reports used the words "dropped off the radar," but IMHO he was not talking to anyone. There is, as you know, a segment of the pilot population that does not use the services available to them simply because they are not required to do so.

Bob Gardner
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I am the polar opposite.......


I'm am always seeking out services. ATC is an asset to me and I'd much rather be talking to a controller than flying guard.

I learned how to fly in C and B so talking to services is where I want to be. If I'm not talking, it's more stressful a flight to me.
 
So, SVT=Synthetic Vision Technology?
That's just GPS and mapping tech right? Sort of like turing right when Siri tells you to into a lake?
 
A question for IR guys: I am only a VFR pilot. I have SV on ForeFlight, but I rarely even open it on the iPad. Does it come in handy flying IFR, sort of as a second check that the terrain is what you expect it to be?
 
woodchucker said:
A question for IR guys: I am only a VFR pilot. I have SV on ForeFlight, but I rarely even open it on the iPad. Does it come in handy flying IFR, sort of as a second check that the terrain is what you expect it to be?
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No. The last thing I need when flying in IMC is another screen to divide my attention.
 
woodchucker said:
A question for IR guys: I am only a VFR pilot. I have SV on ForeFlight, but I rarely even open it on the iPad. Does it come in handy flying IFR, sort of as a second check that the terrain is what you expect it to be?
Click to expand...

Any portable device has limited utility in IMC, "situational awareness aid" only, not primary nav data. Does SVT make a difference flying IFR? Oh yes.
 
SVT in an approved IFR device (like a G500 or G1000 panel) is a great IFR tool. Having it on an iPad that can fail at any moment is just more of a distraction than anything IMO.
 
JHW said:
No. The last thing I need when flying in IMC is another screen to divide my attention.
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A friend of mine actually set up a 2nd ipad to display the SVT. Of course, he's loaded up with awesome primary equipment such as a 750. I guess it depends on the pilot.
 
rbridges said:
A friend of mine actually set up a 2nd ipad to display the SVT. Of course, he's loaded up with awesome primary equipment such as a 750. I guess it depends on the pilot.
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I think it depends on the geek.

dtuuri
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

Bonchie said:
The problem isn't SVT.

It's that they were illegally flying in IMC without an clearance and clearly weren't abiding by minimum altitudes for their route.
Click to expand...

As long as they were illegally in IMC, I'm glad they were flying too low to collide with anyone who was legally IFR there. That's the main problem with illegal IFR, and the reason I wish people could be jailed for doing it. (Though doing it with a 16-year-old passenger is horrible too. I'm glad she survived.)
 
woodchucker said:
A question for IR guys: I am only a VFR pilot. I have SV on ForeFlight, but I rarely even open it on the iPad. Does it come in handy flying IFR, sort of as a second check that the terrain is what you expect it to be?
Click to expand...
If it's built into your GPS like a G1000 then it's great. You are incorporating it into your scan. If it's on an iPad it's just another thing that will distract you from flying the needles. Just my $.02
 
Bonchie said:
And people were more likely to launch into bad weather they shouldn't of when they got that shiny new dual VOR in their plane.

I'm just saying, we can do this with every new piece of technology that comes out.
Click to expand...

...and we do.
 
jordane93 said:
If it's built into your GPS like a G1000 then it's great. You are incorporating it into your scan. If it's on an iPad it's just another thing that will distract you from flying the needles. Just my $.02
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There's no reason for SVT on an iPad in your line of sight to be any more distracting than SVT on a G1000 PFD.

Distractions actually don't do anything. They are just things and events. Completely neutral. It's our response to them - being distracted - that can create problems.
 
Re: Using table to see the mountains?

bobmrg said:
Mr. Bowman did not hold an instrument rating, so that would be hard to pull off. Early news reports used the words "dropped off the radar," but IMHO he was not talking to anyone. There is, as you know, a segment of the pilot population that does not use the services available to them simply because they are not required to do so.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

At his altitude, at his position, he was on no ones radar. that is why the MEA on the nearest Victor airway is so high.
 
woodchucker said:
A question for IR guys: I am only a VFR pilot. I have SV on ForeFlight, but I rarely even open it on the iPad. Does it come in handy flying IFR, sort of as a second check that the terrain is what you expect it to be?
Click to expand...
I agree with others on the limited utility. I really see it as an emergency backup tool for IFR equipment failures and an assist for VFR in low altitude, marginal visibility situations (steering clear of towers). I try to use it just enough to be proficient with it but other than that, I think of it as pretty much a cool toy.
 
You ever wake up one day and suddenly "get it"? This accident (the A35 in WA) kinda struck home for me.

I got the -35 as my flying is mostly fetching hamburgers on the weekend. Well, slowly this little benign addiction is transforming into "mommy runs". That is a run to another state to check on mom and then back the next day. Nothing big. Now I'm about to include my wife to see her mom as we start moving her to Arkansas.

Over time, my fear of flying less that "severe clear" is going away. Recently, I kinda wondered just how close I was to IMC when flying in the "skim milk" sky that is common here in the south. Fast forward a few decades and I can totally see myself wondering why that mountain just popped out of the clouds.

I don't know about you, but I'm just getting the frigging instrument rating. Almost ready for the written test and will have to pay Garmin a $5K entry fee, but it is cheaper than the alternative.

But that's me.
 
I'm just a low time student pilot, but wouldn't the minimum safe altitude numbers on each 'square' of the vfr sectional charts be better than trying to thread needles with SV?

climb confess, etc....? I guess like everyone else is saying, the tech may have given them false confidence to continue. But I'm sure the tablet had the vfr chart.
 
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