Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to fly

[wcszabo]

Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to fly and becoming a Sport Pilot
I would appreciate feedback from you on this business idea – good, bad or otherwise! This feedback request is targeted at those on this forum who are current recreational-focused GA pilots, non-current GA pilots (who desire to get back-in-the-saddle again), aviation enthusiasts (who would like to fulfill their dream of flying on a recreational light sport flying level), and powersports enthusiasts (who have not yet ventured into the world of flying but are highly intrigued) – those who frequent this forum for information and hope driven out of pure passion. What do you think about the following approach or idea? Would you actually adopt and pay for this more affordable means of flight training in order to start fulfilling your dream of flying rather than sitting on the sidelines?
Note – what I am NOT addressing here is the professional pilot track or a GA transportation-focus. This business idea is all about recreational light sport flying and helping people fulfill their dream of flying today! Period! The idea utilizes very affordable static flight simulation (and potential, future add-on motion flight simulation) as the means to getting the broader market of non-current pilots, aviation enthusiasts, powersports enthusiasts, as well as the not-yet flying public hooked on flying and enjoying the unique freedom and exhilaration experienced through recreational light sport flying – reminiscent of the barnstorming and back country flying days of yesteryears. This business idea is all about making recreational light sport flying affordable, achievable, safe and fun for everyone! In other words, its’ simple two-step process takes the prospective pilot along the path from virtual environment to real environment and makes the dream of flying affordable and achievable.
The flight simulation component acts as the primary stepping stone – a truly affordable and safe means for folks to test the water (or should I say “virtual” air) and start basic flight training (including re-currency training) as a Sport Pilot in a virtual environment. The objective here is to train folks through utilizing an industry-proven training program and curriculum (i.e., Sporty’s Learn to Fly program) in a virtual environment (i.e., MS Flight Sim X or x-Plane). Note – it is fully understood that simulator training will not meet any FAA requirements towards a Sport Pilot certificate under the Virtual Sport Pilot Learn-to-Fly Program offered through this business (btw, we will also offer an ELSA Learn-to-Build Program, too). However, virtual training may significantly decrease the time-to-train in the real environment once a decision is made to pursue a certificate. Obviously, virtual training does not replace the unique touch and feel learned through the real environment. However, virtual training should optimize the learning of all fundamentals needed to smoothly transition to real environment training. Sporty’s flight training curriculum will enable all the essential training in a virtual environment to optimize learning, retention, and test preparation.
The real environment component acts as the secondary stepping stone – a truly affordable and optional means for folks to truly fulfill their dream of flying and become certified Sport Pilots. This will be accomplished by forming a Recreational Light Sport Flying Club at a nearby, local recreational-friendly towered or non-towered airport. All virtual pilots who complete the Virtual Sport Pilot Learn-to-Fly Program will have the option to pursue the Sport Pilot certificate through a CFI-SP member within the flying club, as well as become active members of the club themselves. The club will intentionally utilize an affordable and safe light sport airplane type model (Special Light Sport Aircraft) to facilitate its mission and achieve same-aircraft economies. The club will start-off with acquiring two of these “same-type” light sport airplanes with additional “same-type” airplanes ideally coming through the ELSA Learn-to-Build Program, adding to the club fleet of aircraft. One airplane currently under consideration is the SkyReach BushCat. This is a great SLSA candidate with bush pilot-like performance specs, a greater crosswind component compared to many SLSA, etc.
In summary, the business idea comprises both the Virtual Sport Pilot Learn-to-Fly Program and the Recreational Light Sport Flying Club. Both business components are intended to be extremely affordable for the broader market so folks can start fulfilling their dream of flying today!
See my earlier questions in this forum topic. Your comments and suggestions are requested?
Thank You in Advance,
Wayne Szabo
Get Hooked On Flying, LLC
(Also a Realtor at Keller Williams Realty Mission Viejo, CA)

 

[jimson]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

You may be reinventing the wheel.

https://www.gleim.com/aviation/xplane/#avTab=main

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

What would be the value for someone trying to learn to fly for recreation?

Flight simulators can help you sort out instruments and becoming familiar with interacting with some of the systems. But, in my opinion, they have limited value (or can even be misleading) for getting the "feel" and muscle memory that is the foundation of recreational flying. Something like my LSA taildragger has little of interest on the panel - you fly it with your head outside, which is hard to do in a simulator.

Of course, that's not to say that you wouldn't make money with the idea...

 

[txflyer]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

My old eyes can't take that font and the wall of text, but flight sims keep you more proficient than talking on POA!

 

[AggieMike88]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Hasn't this been attempted to some success by Redbird in San Marcos, TX?

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Hasn't this been attempted to some success by Redbird in San Marcos, TX?

Yes, but their FAA certified ATDs are integrated into a flight training syllabus and run by CFIs. A little different than a PC gaming sim.

 

[AggieMike88]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Yes, but their FAA certified ATDs are integrated into a flight training syllabus and run by CFIs. A little different than a PC gaming sim.

Correct. But what I got from skimming that wall of text from the OP is that he wants the same end. Which I opine isn't possible with "gaming sims".

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Correct. But what I got from skimming that wall of text from the OP is that he wants the same end. Which I opine isn't possible with "gaming sims".

It strikes me that the OP, which appears to be a private pilot, Might not be familiar with some basic concepts associated with flight training.

 

[JHW]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Yes, it can be very economical, which is why it is used so much. I got several type ratings 100% in the sim and first time I sat in the cockpit of the real airplane was on a revenue flight.

OTOH are you talking about some video game on a PC or the like? Lots of people seem to like video games, I could never get into them. Either way it's got nothing to do with flying an airplane any more than playing mariocart teaches you to drive a car.

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Yes, it can be very economical, which is why it is used so much. I got several type ratings 100% in the sim and first time I sat in the cockpit of the real airplane was on a revenue flight.

OTOH are you talking about some video game on a PC or the like? Lots of people seem to like video games, I could never get into them. Either way it's got nothing to do with flying an airplane any more than playing mariocart teaches you to drive a car.

Seems like the latter. From the OP: "...virtual environment (i.e., MS Flight Sim X or x-Plane)..."

 

[EminiTrader]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I tried to read this, but failed. Paragraph breaks please.

 

[jimson]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I believe that if you did use a simulated program like the Gleim/Xplane one I mentioned that it would be a good lead in to get someone to invest in actual training. I also believe you would be a better prepared student from a theoretical knowledge standpoint. You wouldn't have great stick and rudder skills but you would have a better idea on what you are looking to do.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I think it would be more productive to build an interactive game to study for the written rather than physically fly.

 

[BigBadLou]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

These posts appear from time to time and are attributed to trolls. And yet, they catch a lot of folks and stir up a lot of pointless discussion about a dead horse that's been beaten to death over and over again.

Mods, can you trace the IP and warn the long-time user to stop playing games? Thank you.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

These posts appear from time to time and are attributed to trolls. And yet, they catch a lot of folks and stir up a lot of pointless discussion about a dead horse that's been beaten to death over and over again.

Mods, can you trace the IP and warn the long-time user to stop playing games? Thank you.

I don't necessarily attribute them to trolls, more often I see it as someone with no flying experience and no money trying to figure out a way to learn how to fly without being able to afford it.

 

[AggieMike88]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

or "trying to figure out a way to earn their way to fly without being able to afford it"

 

[AggieMike88]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I think it would be more productive to build an interactive game to study for the written rather than physically fly.

For some concepts that might work.

But I thought the game currently available was spot the differences in Martha's hair style with bonus points for remaining awake through the entire video series.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

For some concepts that might work.

But I thought the game currently available was spot the differences in Martha's hair style with bonus points for remaining awake through the entire video series.

I was thinking more where it interacts the written question scenarios with simulator based action that will stop the sim and pop up the question. That way it relays the information, and puts it into operational context.

 

[wcszabo]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Hi guys, thanks for the constructive feedback. Some great thoughts regarding using gaming sims versus more sophisticated sims like ATDs. Some not so great comments, too. Next time I'm in the shower I'll have to check for troll hair! Good link for the Gleim product, thx, wasn't aware of it. I do have a PPL, so yes, do have some knowledge of the flying environment, believe it or not. This is simply about trying to come up with a very affordable solution to helping more people fulfill their dream of flying by stepping them from virtual to real through a very affordable structured process and focusing on recreational sport flying. I believe it is doable with gaming sims in parallel with utilizing a solid industry-proven program such as Sporty's Learn to Fly program. Certainly, it's not the "end all", but would definitely provide someone the opportunity to get more immersed in the basic flying world at a virtual level first, someone who has dreamed of flying but thought it too expensive to pursue. Obviously, transitioning to real environment flight training would develop the obvious "touch and feel" (i.e., feel and muscle memory) and "eyes outside the cockpit" training needed to become a certified pilot. Again, thanks for the interesting comments...Happy Holidays to all!

Yours Truly,
Mr. Troll

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Hi guys, thanks for the constructive feedback. Some great thoughts regarding using gaming sims versus more sophisticated sims like ATDs. Some not so great comments, too. Next time I'm in the shower I'll have to check for troll hair! Good link for the Gleim product, thx, wasn't aware of it. I do have a PPL, so yes, do have some knowledge of the flying environment, believe it or not. This is simply about trying to come up with a very affordable solution to helping more people fulfill their dream of flying by stepping them from virtual to real through a very affordable structured process and focusing on recreational sport flying. I believe it is doable with gaming sims in parallel with utilizing a solid industry-proven program such as Sporty's Learn to Fly program. Certainly, it's not the "end all", but would definitely provide someone the opportunity to get more immersed in the basic flying world at a virtual level first, someone who has dreamed of flying but thought it too expensive to pursue. Obviously, transitioning to real environment flight training would develop the obvious "touch and feel" (i.e., feel and muscle memory) and "eyes outside the cockpit" training needed to become a certified pilot. Again, thanks for the interesting comments...Happy Holidays to all!

Yours Truly,
Mr. Troll

Yeah, this is where the problem lies, it really isn't possible. It's been tried, and failed, many times. There are some a PC sim helps, and some it hinders. I see a place for them, but not a significant enough place where it changes the level of affordability. I would think at best you may find a 10% reduction in cost. In the end, you need X amount of hours in the plane or APPROVED sim. If you are diligent, you can do your training in 40hrs, and I don't see how to cut from that cost significantly by using a PC/SIM. The most cost effective way to get through it if you just want to fly is with a PT-103 ultralight. Outside of that, if you want to fly Pt.91 or above, it s going to cost what it s going to cost, and it will be a lot.

 

[jimson]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I still think it might be a good way to get people in the cockpit door.

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Problem is with a few extreme exceptions I've never seen a gamer sim set-up that was really set up like a cockpit of a trainer, i.e. Real knobs, realistic radios, etc.

For primary training, a sim like that would be helpful for as a procedural training for things such as checklists, emergency procedures, avionics operation, etc.

Actually learning to fly is very much based on sight picture, feel, and sound; all things that require very expensive equipment to simulate. Learning to fly looking at a computer screen will cause all sorts of issues that will have to be unlearned.

Of course, advanced certificates and ratings (i.e. Multi, instrument, ATP, etc.) are a different story.

 

[wcszabo]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I believe some of you may have misunderstood how I am positioning the PC flight simulator versus a much more expensive desktop ATD or other traditional/static flight school flight simulator. I don't intend for it to be a means to acquire hours towards a Sport Pilot certificate (the FAA won't allow that), but instead as a means to simply orient and provide basic flight knowledge as well as help enthusiasts discover their passion for flight through a much more affordable approach.

Think of this business idea as being a quasi-ground school and virtual flight training service with an optional add-on to actually learn to fly in the real environment. It's understood as well that any time spent learning to fly in the PC flight sim environment would not at all meet any FAA requirements to earn a SP certificate. However, that said, depending upon the intentionality of each virtual student, anything learned through the Sporty's course and curriculum would certainly help towards taking the SP written test (not unlike somebody doing home study through the Sporty's course). But in this case they would instead be learning in a group setting.

Again, the PC flight sim training is not intended to be a way to replace actual flight hours required to earn the SP certificate. However, I do strongly believe that a virtual student's experience should essentially reduce the student's overall initial time-to-train in the real environment since the PC flight sim experience in conjunction with Sporty's industry-proven ground school training system (i.e., Sporty's Learn to Fly course), as well as incorporating Sporty's Learn to Fly curriculum into the virtual training itself (certain limitations will apply), should help accelerate initial real environment flight training when the student does finally make the decision to pursue the real deal.

Of course, it's again all entirely up to the student and their ability. In fact, he or she may elect not to move forward into the real world of flying, as the virtual world is satisfying enough. Bottom line is, yes, the virtual student would still need to go through the normal process of flight training through a club SP instructor (CFI or CFI-SP) and also plan for the 20 hours (or more) that it takes to earn a SP certificate if he or she did decides to move forward into the real deal. But my bet is - some hours would be shaved off on the overall time required to earn the certificate. Or maybe not if you're a troll!

Anyway, all that to say, I believe a PC system like Saitek's ProFlight Simulator Cockpit would be quite adequate and less cost prohibitive for this business approach. And the lower acquisition and operating costs could easily be passed onto the virtual students via an affordable fee structure.

I hope this helps clarify things without getting into too much detail...

Yours truly,
Mr. Troll

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I believe some of you may have misunderstood how I am positioning the PC flight simulator versus a much more expensive desktop ATD or other traditional/static flight school flight simulator. I don't intend for it to be a means to acquire hours towards a Sport Pilot certificate (the FAA won't allow that), but instead as a means to simply orient and provide basic flight knowledge as well as help enthusiasts discover their passion for flight through a much more affordable approach.

Think of this business idea as being a quasi-ground school and virtual flight training service with an optional add-on to actually learn to fly in the real environment. It's understood as well that any time spent learning to fly in the PC flight sim environment would not at all meet any FAA requirements to earn a SP certificate. However, that said, depending upon the intentionality of each virtual student, anything learned through the Sporty's course and curriculum would certainly help towards taking the SP written test (not unlike somebody doing home study through the Sporty's course). But in this case they would instead be learning in a group setting.

Again, the PC flight sim training is not intended to be a way to replace actual flight hours required to earn the SP certificate. However, I do strongly believe that a virtual student's experience should essentially reduce the student's overall initial time-to-train in the real environment since the PC flight sim experience in conjunction with Sporty's industry-proven ground school training system (i.e., Sporty's Learn to Fly course), as well as incorporating Sporty's Learn to Fly curriculum into the virtual training itself (certain limitations will apply), should help accelerate initial real environment flight training when the student does finally make the decision to pursue the real deal.

Of course, it's again all entirely up to the student and their ability. In fact, he or she may elect not to move forward into the real world of flying, as the virtual world is satisfying enough. Bottom line is, yes, the virtual student would still need to go through the normal process of flight training through a club SP instructor (CFI or CFI-SP) and also plan for the 20 hours (or more) that it takes to earn a SP certificate if he or she did decides to move forward into the real deal. But my bet is - some hours would be shaved off on the overall time required to earn the certificate. Or maybe not if you're a troll!

Anyway, all that to say, I believe a PC system like Saitek's ProFlight Simulator Cockpit would be quite adequate and less cost prohibitive for this business approach. And the lower acquisition and operating costs could easily be passed onto the virtual students via an affordable fee structure.

I hope this helps clarify things without getting into too much detail...

Yours truly,
Mr. Troll

You asked for opinions.

If you're convinced it's a great idea, go for it and let us know how it goes. If you're successful, you won't be the first business owner to prevail when told their business idea wouldn't work.

In my opinion, if you add even one new pilot to the ranks you are successful. Of course it's easy for me to say that, I'm not putting up the money

 

[MadseasoN]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Most people who want to fly for recreation want to actually fly. Flying with an instructor in the right seat is still flying. The sim can be a useful tool with the right instructor and student but if I'm going to spend the time and money I want the real thing. Physiological/psychological acclamation is also paramount and you're not gonna get that on the PC sim.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Problem is with a few extreme exceptions I've never seen a gamer sim set-up that was really set up like a cockpit of a trainer, i.e. Real knobs, realistic radios, etc.

For primary training, a sim like that would be helpful for as a procedural training for things such as checklists, emergency procedures, avionics operation, etc.

Actually learning to fly is very much based on sight picture, feel, and sound; all things that require very expensive equipment to simulate. Learning to fly looking at a computer screen will cause all sorts of issues that will have to be unlearned.

Of course, advanced certificates and ratings (i.e. Multi, instrument, ATP, etc.) are a different story.

Besides the really elaborate ones I mentioned before, I have also seen some gamer sims with physical panel modules with knobs on radios..., pseudo realistic gear and flaps... quadrant yoke and rudder, that using it as a procedural trainer/maintainer I felt had value.

I don't know how much value you can get from it as a 'stepping stone', because without having the live action reference to begin with, you don't have a full understanding of what is going on. You end up putting in a lot more time and effort, as well as introduce confusion and error, figuring out what is going on and why things are, when you can cover it fully in a couple of lessons, then have that training in the airplane as your experience of primacy to compare the sim to, rather than the other way around. At that point the sim has value understanding and learning navigation and other procedures. The damn sim terrain databases are good enough that you can teach someone how to navigate by visual pilotage on a sectional using the "out the window" comparative features.

So really, there is benefit to be gained even if it is not realistic, but it's really only efficient if it augments real airplane training. If you want to use a sim to help you learn to fly, go get 2 hours of training in a 172 or whatever model, and then use that model in your sim. That way you will know where the sim is different than the plane, so your brain will automatically adjust, and separate simming muscle memory from airplane muscle memory. That should help avoid many of the pitfalls that the gamers->pilot guys seem to run into in the transition.

 

[JHW]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I don't know what a "desktop ATD" is but if it sits on a desktop it can't be of much use.

This is what I think of when someone says training in a sim. This is where I got my antonov type ratings, albeit in somewhat older models than this photo.

I've seem some simulators for barons & twin cessnas but nothing smaller. For a light single, why not just get in the airplane? there really isn't any other option.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Remember the boxes you would see on tables at flight schools with the instrument panel, controls, and a pen/paper graphing recorder next to it for training instrument procedures? That's a desktop ATD.

 

[JHW]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Remember the boxes you would see on tables at flight schools with the instrument panel, controls, and a pen/paper graphing recorder next to it for training instrument procedures? That's a desktop ATD.

gotcha. I can see the value in teaching holding entries and such. Can't imagine it's of much use learning the mechanics of driving an airplane.

 

[jimson]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

The gleim xplane program is pretty cool. It follows a syllabus and includes informational videos and such.

It has pop ups that tell you when your speed, alt, and headings are out of spec etc.

It recommends completing it at least once before you begin actual training and I think I would have enjoyed using it when I was just contemplating flight school.

I would be using it now but I just don't have the time when I'm trying to hit actual lessons a couple of times a week.

I don't know how much it would help with actual flying because I don't have a clean slate with which to test it, but I know it would improve your general aviation knowledge. It's like dry running through a PPl syllabus.

I wish I had known about it before as something to do until I could take lessons.
I think it would have been a lot of fun sort of as a pre flight school primer.

I have all the popular PC flight sims and wanted to start a blog about supplementing training with sim work but then circumstances allowed me to begin real training and I just haven't had the time to explore it very extensively.

I may get back to it and post a link on this board

One thing I have learned is that it in no way replaces cockpit time but it sure is a lot of fun, and I don't think it has hurt me in any way.

It was flight sims that got me interested in doing the real thing to begin with.

That in itself, is valuable.

I think that for someone who can't do the real thing right away due to money etc, but could spend a little money for the program and the set up, it would be a way to explore the possibilities.

They might end up ahead of the game or not, but I think they would enjoy it, and get an idea what it's like.

 

[OkieAviator]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

This topic seems to come up a lot... there's a huge difference in flying a real plane and flying a flight sim. Case in point when my son was 7 he took off and landed a plane on P3D using yoke/quadrant/pedals his first time. I talked him through things but would I try this in my actual plane?... umm no, nor would I suggest people try it on their own.

That said seems the OP wants to get a little desktop setup and teach a ground school utilizing the simulator in training. This is already done all over the place, I can think of 4 places around me that teach and have some flight sim setup they'll use... students aren't logging it but they're using it to illustrate certain concepts. I like to call it 'advanced chair flying'.

When I decided I was going for my instrument rating I used my setup as a training tool. Knocked it out in 6 months and outside of self study the sim set up I had helped reinforce items and concepts... here's a post about my set up before I began.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79881

I still jump on about once a week and do an hour long XC soup to nuts IFR flight. The thought process is if I don't fly an IFR flight for a year I will have still planned, fake flown, checked charts and talked through 50 some odd flights over that year.

 

[exncsurfer]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Hi guys, thanks for the constructive feedback. Some great thoughts regarding using gaming sims versus more sophisticated sims like ATDs. Some not so great comments, too. Next time I'm in the shower I'll have to check for troll hair! Good link for the Gleim product, thx, wasn't aware of it. I do have a PPL, so yes, do have some knowledge of the flying environment, believe it or not. This is simply about trying to come up with a very affordable solution to helping more people fulfill their dream of flying by stepping them from virtual to real through a very affordable structured process and focusing on recreational sport flying. I believe it is doable with gaming sims in parallel with utilizing a solid industry-proven program such as Sporty's Learn to Fly program. Certainly, it's not the "end all", but would definitely provide someone the opportunity to get more immersed in the basic flying world at a virtual level first, someone who has dreamed of flying but thought it too expensive to pursue. Obviously, transitioning to real environment flight training would develop the obvious "touch and feel" (i.e., feel and muscle memory) and "eyes outside the cockpit" training needed to become a certified pilot. Again, thanks for the interesting comments...Happy Holidays to all!

Yours Truly,
Mr. Troll

I'd wonder if your 'virtual students' would get bogged down by all the tedious stuff without getting the reward of the real world flight time and maybe get discouraged and think its not worth it. I'm a student pilot right now, and its the getting up there that keeps me going.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

gotcha. I can see the value in teaching holding entries and such. Can't imagine it's of much use learning the mechanics of driving an airplane.

Much the same with a PC really just a step forward in technology. Same function, same limitation (except the logging part), just cooler and chip based technology.

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

I think the key to keeping sims from being a detriment is to have the mechanics of flying first. Don't start using it until after solo.

 

[KA550]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

When did this become a gamer's forum? Use this and get a play certificate.

 

[jimson]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

When did this become a gamer's forum? Use this and get a play certificate.

Yeah, there's always a guy like you around LOL

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

When did this become a gamer's forum? Use this and get a play certificate.

The military and airlines use sims for a reason. Even every X-15 flight profile was practiced in a sim multiple times before each flight.

Sims do definitely have limitations in how much and what they can teach, and on their own are not a sufficient replacement, and yes, if used incorrectly can actually produce an impediment to learning to fly real planes.

But they most certainly can fill a positive roll in GA training. This isn't like playing Flight Sim v.1 on the Commodore 64, it has become much more sophisticated, and the aircraft performance modeling accurate. Once you eliminate the last vestiges of V.1 and get rid of the ascii keyboard running the plane and put some standard controls in, they start becoming pretty viable simulators at doing what simulators are good at, and that is practicing and reviewing procedures and measuring the results.

No need to throw away a useful tool because it can only work on 35% of the job if it works efficiently and effectively on that 35%. Key is, understand the limitations, and I think that's why it's important to solo first. By solo you have learned everything that the sim gets wrong/doesn't give you.

 

[Dr. O]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

The post is the proof

 

[Henning]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

The post is the proof

Of?

 

[wcszabo]

Re: Using flight simulation as a stepping stone and affordable means to learning to f

Hi all, thanks again for the continued discussion and thoughts. To reiterate, the mission of the business is to help the broader market fulfill their dream of flying and make recreational light sport flying affordable, achievable, safe and fun for everyone. More aviators equals a win-win for the GA community and industry. I know you all get that...

Virtual flight training in and of itself is certainly not the end-all, as I've said earlier. And ideally it is better if simulator training is utilized in parallel with real flight training as a means to practice and bolster the overall training experience, as noted by many in the thread.

Again, keep in mind that the broader enthusiast market I am targeting will in most cases not be able to afford additional ratings past the Sport Pilot ticket. The goal is simply to provide them an affordable and achievable means to get involved with aviation and flying, and be able to provide the bridge to experience the same freedom and exhilaration that you and I have been blessed to experience.

Again, the means is simple: 1) optimize the use of a high-end PC desktop system such as Saitek's ProFlight Simulator Cockpit for PC that will immerse these folks in the virtual world of flying and foster their passion, and then 2) provide the bridge to become full-fledged Sport Pilots who plan to enjoy recreational light sport flying via a Club setting.

The virtual flight training component will be bolstered by utilizing Sporty's Learn to Fly ground school course plus Sporty's Sport Pilot Flight Training curriculum (similar to Gleim's simulator syllabus). If some choose not to pursue their passion any further than the virtual world, then so be it. At least they will have been given enough exposure and training to make a reasonable decision. In fact, they make even decide to continue using our simulators or invest in their own home system and simply enjoy the virtual realm. For those who embrace the virtual training and want to go to the next level, then the real world is available as an option.

Btw, whatever perceived bad habits that may or may not transpire from virtual training, I believe an instructor will certainly be able to correct either way. But I would still bet the majority who follow the virtual to real path will have enough of the fundamentals down and "know how" needed to help reduce the time-to-train upon transitioning to real instruction with a Club CFI.

Please keep in mind that this business model is not as complicated as some seem to perceive; and please realize that the virtual training program is not structured to incorporate real training in parallel or help someone achieve a more advanced rating. The program is pretty simple.

Obviously, there are many flight schools out there utilizing static flight simulators in parallel with real world training. But this virtual program will not have that luxury. However, once a virtual student opts to become a real student via training within the Club setting, then certainly they can continue to utilize the simulators we have for further practice and to bolster their real world experiences.

Here's a reply from another forum that reflects some examples of the kind of virtual training that can be accomplished with a PC desktop simulator:

"I found a simulator to be very helpful...It was especially helpful in the early stages of flight training for mental and task conditioning. e.g. Fly 20 t/o and landing..., run through checklists, make all of radio calls, and anticipate what needs to be done in the air, etc. The sim was also REALLY helpful in cross-country preparation.
1) seeing how terrain unfolds at destination airports, and how they might effect approach, etc. (The whole "been there" familiarity.)
2) for dead-reckoning / pilotage, really useful to see how geographic elements line up when on course."

The Saitek ProFlight Simulator Cockpit for PC configuration is truly a high-end PC system (something you probably wouldn't see in most home environments - especially in a gamers home setting) that also provides hands-on experience with instrumentation, throttle and fuel mixture, flaps, radio, etc...offering a very realistic experience. Check out - http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/cpfull.html. Some of the functionality is beyond the scope of the Sport Pilot. But nevertheless, this is a very adequate system running approximately between $5,500 to $7,500 depending upon if you need to add a computer system, sound system and monitor(s); and I believe still much more affordable than most ATDs or other flight school static simulators.

All that to say, I know some of you don't believe that this business idea or model will attract enough customers. Perhaps that's the case. Nevertheless, I do truly appreciate your feedback pro or con, and will continue to delve into the feasibility of it.