Using AirNav to bash an FBO?

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Messages
14,869
Location
Montgomery County PA
Display Name
Display name:
Adam Zucker
Man somethings just eat at ya. I was speaking to the manager of the FBO the other day and asked why he dumped his ad on AirNav. He told me Apparently some CFIs from a compteting flight school posted nasty stuff and when he approached AirNav and pointed out that the two bad posts out of the many many really postive ones were from CFIs at a compteting school they said they couldn't do anything. This is a real bummer I really hope businesses are not using AirNav to bash the competition. It reminds me of click fraud on Google. Grrrrrrr.

Has the competition for students become that fierce?:dunno: :(
 
Sounds like eBays feedback system. the only course of action is to retaliate.
Or be the better man and don't do anything. except lose business....
 
Better yet, the business owner posts his response. He lays it all out and reveals what's going on. Stink sticks to the perp. Backfires on them.

I've seen this more than a few times on AirNav. Whether it's legit or not, they usually get to the bottom of it.
 
The FBO dude has the ability to respond to the negative comments left behind.

A few bad apples does not, IMHO, ruin the great asset that Airnav provides to the community, since there is a way to address it.
 
My FBO has requested AirNav to remove all postings related to them because of a few bad postings. That's why it says they have "requested that AirNav not collect or publish user comments."
 
gprellwitz said:
My FBO has requested AirNav to remove all postings related to them because of a few bad postings. That's why it says they have "requested that AirNav not collect or publish user comments."
Click to expand...

This could set a bad precedent where accurate negative listings are suppressed.

I can see both sides, but the best bet is for the FBO to explain the negatives when they can.
 
SkyHog said:
This could set a bad precedent where accurate negative listings are suppressed.

I can see both sides, but the best bet is for the FBO to explain the negatives when they can.
Click to expand...
I agree, but not my call.
 
In addition to the FBO responding, those that like and support the FBO can post positive responses on AirNav. Don't even have to mention the other negative posts, just let everyone know how great the place is.

OTOH, if the negative posts have adversly affected the FBO's business a kind letter from a lawyer to the competing FBO's management might be enough to have the offending CFI's comments removed or a trip to court might be in order.
 
Adam,

The FBO *does* have the ability to respond, and their response will be listed right there with the negative comment. If they simply respond and point out that the CFI's are from another school, that should pretty well discredit them.

I thought you were talking about bashing crappy FBO's and I was about to run and hide 'cuz I have done that on airnav. See MKE, then when you're done there, go to RAC. :D
 
gprellwitz said:
My FBO has requested AirNav to remove all postings related to them because of a few bad postings. That's why it says they have "requested that AirNav not collect or publish user comments."
Click to expand...
Interesting.

While I would question why the FBO does not want to fix the issues that brought the negative comments I also notice the AirNav has no issues instituting a policy that prevent negative comments from being associated with one of their paying customers. I guess I am not surprised that they would wish to please the people that gives them money.
 
smigaldi said:
While I would question why the FBO does not want to fix the issues that brought the negative comments I also notice the AirNav has no issues instituting a policy that prevent negative comments from being associated with one of their paying customers. I guess I am not surprised that they would wish to please the people that gives them money.
Click to expand...

We strongly discourage FBOs from having no comments. It looks suspicious, as if they have something to hide. Which some do, in fact. We tell FBOs that pilots distrust and avoid FBOs that refuse to have comments on AirNav, so ultimately removing comments works against the FBO's interest.

Still, in some cases the FBOs are so adamant to have no comments that it comes down to this: either drop the comments or drop all information about the FBO (including name and phone number and fuel prices). When we get to that point it's an easy decision: it's best for the pilot to have some information than no information at all. So we drop the comments to keep the rest of the information. And we tell the pilot that the lack of comments is at the FBO's request, so that you as pilot can arrive at your own conclusions about whether you want to patronize that business.
 
AdamZ said:
Man somethings just eat at ya. I was speaking to the manager of the FBO the other day and asked why he dumped his ad on AirNav. He told me Apparently some CFIs from a compteting flight school posted nasty stuff and when he approached AirNav and pointed out that the two bad posts out of the many many really postive ones were from CFIs at a compteting school they said they couldn't do anything. This is a real bummer I really hope businesses are not using AirNav to bash the competition. It reminds me of click fraud on Google. Grrrrrrr.

Has the competition for students become that fierce?:dunno: :(
Click to expand...

The internet is rife with fraud like this, so this comes as no surprise.

Example: We own an aviation themed hotel -- in a college town. (The University of Iowa.) The college kids are computer savvy from birth, and what do you think they do to us when our night manager breaks up a party and sends them packing? Yep, the next day we'll have an on-line review that complains about "bugs in the rooms and blood on the sheets".

This sort of thing really sucks, cuz there is very little a business can do in response. It's become the #1 reason that most hotels will not remove loud and disruptive guests, which has ruined more than a few of our hotel stays while vacationing. (I just love it when the front desk says "There's nothing we can do" in response to complaints about loud music and screaming at 3 AM...)

Bottom line: If a hotel has a bunch of good reviews, and couple of really, really bad ones -- they've probably got management that cares about their guests, and actually puts party-kids out on the street. Mary and I have learned to select hotels specifically that match that review pattern on places like TripAdvisor, and have never been disappointed.

I imagine it works the same way with FBOs. What a shame, but the world is chock-full of dishonorable characters.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The internet is rife with fraud like this, so this comes as no surprise.

Example: We own an aviation themed hotel -- in a college town. (The University of Iowa.) The college kids are computer savvy from birth, and what do you think they do to us when our night manager breaks up a party and sends them packing? Yep, the next day we'll have an on-line review that complains about "bugs in the rooms and blood on the sheets".

This sort of thing really sucks, cuz there is very little a business can do in response. It's become the #1 reason that most hotels will not remove loud and disruptive guests, which has ruined more than a few of our hotel stays while vacationing. (I just love it when the front desk says "There's nothing we can do" in response to complaints about loud music and screaming at 3 AM...)

Bottom line: If a hotel has a bunch of good reviews, and couple of really, really bad ones -- they've probably got management that cares about their guests, and actually puts party-kids out on the street. Mary and I have learned to select hotels specifically that match that review pattern on places like TripAdvisor, and have never been disappointed.

I imagine it works the same way with FBOs. What a shame, but the world is chock-full of dishonorable characters.
Click to expand...


That is such a shame for both the service being rated, be it hotels or FBOs and has got to frustrate the hell out of the ratings service Whether its Trip Advisor or AirNav.

When I see mixed review on AirNav I take a look to see where the positive reviews are coming from. If it is a local or based customer I don't give it as much weight as the transient because they are more likely to support the home team so to speak. If there are enough positive review on the FBO ( that are not Jet-A burners cause I do believe they can be treated differently as some FBOs) I figure its still a pretty good place to go. Plus I look at how long they stay. I have flown into a place for a Weekend and gotten great service on Friday and been ignored on Sunday. Its all a balancing act.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Bottom line: If a hotel has a bunch of good reviews, and couple of really, really bad ones -- they've probably got management that cares about their guests, and actually puts party-kids out on the street. Mary and I have learned to select hotels specifically that match that review pattern on places like TripAdvisor, and have never been disappointed.
Click to expand...

You can usually tell by the details in the review how trustworthy it may be. I usually read Expedia and Amazon reviews before buying a product or booking a room in a new locale.

The one-star reviews that state "This things sux!!" are ignored.
 
JUst look at Trip Advisor sometime. (shakes head).

I *have* posted a couple of bad hotel reviews, including a particular hotel that walked me at 11 PM and refused to either find or pay for an alternative hotel. Not acceptable to a higher tier member of that chain's frequent guest program. Contacted hotel and chain management before posting bad review and got blown off.... but the city department of consumer affairs did elicit a response (a 10% off next-stay offer). Not acceptable when the hotel and chain policy call for full payment of alternative accomodations if they walk you with a guaranteed reservation.
 
You want to see bad comments you should see what they write about me on ratemyprofessor.com.
 
smigaldi said:
No argument from me on that.

Business serve those who give them the money, and when anything may jeopardize them from getting money they will say or do whatever it takes to stop it.
Click to expand...
That is sort of a blanket insuation that all businesses are corrupt, and I resent it. It is true that it is the point of a business to make money, but not every business owner will "do whatever it takes".
 
JOhnH said:
That is sort of a blanket insuation that all businesses are corrupt, and I resent it. It is true that it is the point of a business to make money, but not every business owner will "do whatever it takes".
Click to expand...
Corruption implies illegal actions. I made so such accusation. Business owners will aggressively pursue monetary profit. Good businesses will do that within the law, corrupt ones will exceed the legal limits. Resent those that break the law. I do not begrudge anyone that tries their hardest to make a buck legally and honestly.
 
smigaldi said:
Corruption implies illegal actions. I made so such accusation. Business owners will aggressively pursue monetary profit. Good businesses will do that within the law, corrupt ones will exceed the legal limits. Resent those that break the law. I do not begrudge anyone that tries their hardest to make a buck legally and honestly.
Click to expand...

Ok, maybe corruption was the wrong word, but it was still a blanket condemnation of business owners. And I still get a stomach ache when I think about how hard I try to always do the right thing and still get painted with such a broad brush.
 
JOhnH said:
Ok, maybe corruption was the wrong word, but it was still a blanket condemnation of business owners. And I still get a stomach ache when I think about how hard I try to always do the right thing and still get painted with such a broad brush.
Click to expand...
What broad brush is that?

Are you not in business to make money?

Do you not want to serve your customer?

If your customer demanded another service would you not wish to offer it to them in order to keep your customer yours and happy?

If a competitor attempts to lure a customer away would you not as a business owner do what it took to keep that customer?
 
Last edited:
JOhnH said:
Ok, maybe corruption was the wrong word, but it was still a blanket condemnation of business owners. And I still get a stomach ache when I think about how hard I try to always do the right thing and still get painted with such a broad brush.
Click to expand...


Jealousy, pure and simple. Class warfare is so popular now that even, honest businesses are demonized. The profit motive is now a sin. Businesses are self correcting. If they don't give a good, fair service or product for the money they fail and are gone, or at least they do when the government doesn't own them.
 
Just as you would likely not buy a plane without logbooks, I generally avoid those FBO's without any comments listed on Airnav. I have to assume that there was an abundance of complaints outweighing the positives. Otherwise why hide?

I appreciate it when FBO's respond to negative comments, which, as mentioned previously, they have the ability to do. For an example of how to do this right, look at the Cutter listing at COS.

True, some of the comments are asinine. This one is my personal favorite, from N. Las Vegas VGT (with the response):
From Bill Flynn on 19-Jul-2007 Not very friendly, allowed pitot tube cover to be stolen and non-caring. Will never go to North Las Vegas airport again will go to Henderson. If you can avoid this place do so.Response from Doug McNeeley, VGT Airport Manager
After reading Bill Flynn's posting below I called to address his concerns. I discovered that Bill Flynn, Sr. wrote the comments but it was his son, Bill Flynn, Jr., who actually flew the trip. The son explained that, in fact, one of our linepersons was very attentive and spent 10 minutes scouring the ramp for the missing cover, which most likely blew off in the desert wind. Regardless, I'm sending Mr. Flynn a replacement pitot tube cover free of charge with our apologies.

When I see a response such as this, or from Jessica at Cutter, the negative comment becomes a net positive for the FBO. I wonder why they all can't see that.

Jon
 
smigaldi said:
Interesting.

While I would question why the FBO does not want to fix the issues that brought the negative comments I also notice the AirNav has no issues instituting a policy that prevent negative comments from being associated with one of their paying customers. I guess I am not surprised that they would wish to please the people that gives them money.
Click to expand...

Unless my calendar is off, you're responding to a thread that was created two years ago. What's wrong with the current thread and exhange with airnav in it?
 
Let's keep this out of Spin Zone folks. It's getting close. If it keeps going we will close the thread.
 
smigaldi said:
What broad brush is that?

Are you not in business to make money?

Do you not want to serve your customer?

If your customer demanded another service would you not wish to offer it to them in order to keep your customer yours and happy?

If a competitor attempts to lure a customer away would you not as a business owner do what it took to keep that customer?
Click to expand...

What you said was " ... and when anything may jeopardize them from getting money they will say or do whatever it takes to stop it."

And the answer is that there are a lot of things I would never do. If it is illegal, immoral, unethical, tasteless, hurtful etc, then I would not do it. Your statement was simple. You said that I, along with every other businessman is unscrupulous. Correct me if I am wrong, but you do not own a business, do you?
 
wsuffa said:
Let's keep this out of Spin Zone folks. It's getting close. If it keeps going we will close the thread.
Click to expand...

Bill, I posted again prior to reading your request. I apologize for continuing this and you may remove my post if you wish.
 
JOhnH said:
What you said was " ... and when anything may jeopardize them from getting money they will say or do whatever it takes to stop it."


And the answer is that there are a lot of things I would never do. If it is illegal, immoral, unethical, tasteless, hurtful etc, then I would not do it. Your statement was simple. You said that I, along with every other businessman is unscrupulous.
Click to expand...
I was referring to all the legal things. I never called you nor anyone else "unscrupulous".

JOhnH said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but you do not own a business, do you?
Click to expand...
You're wrong. I have a small side business.
 
wsuffa said:
JUst look at Trip Advisor sometime. (shakes head).

I *have* posted a couple of bad hotel reviews, including a particular hotel that walked me at 11 PM and refused to either find or pay for an alternative hotel. Not acceptable to a higher tier member of that chain's frequent guest program. Contacted hotel and chain management before posting bad review and got blown off.... but the city department of consumer affairs did elicit a response (a 10% off next-stay offer). Not acceptable when the hotel and chain policy call for full payment of alternative accomodations if they walk you with a guaranteed reservation.
Click to expand...

You have touched on one of the biggest scams in the lodging industry: Over-booking. Most of the hoteliers I know over-book by as much as 20%, and then "walk" anyone who actually shows up once the hotel is full.

This is unconscionable, IMHO, and we refuse to do it. Because all of our suites are unique, when you book (for example) the Red Baron Suite, we won't book it to anyone else, and will hold it for you all night. In my opinion, a reservation is a contract -- after all, that hotel DID take your credit card number, right? -- and it should be illegal not to honor it.

Of course, the flipside of this policy is that we actually expect that a guest with a guaranteed reservation will show up, and will charge them if they don't.
 
Jay Honeck said:
You have touched on one of the biggest scams in the lodging industry: Over-booking. Most of the hoteliers I know over-book by as much as 20%, and then "walk" anyone who actually shows up once the hotel is full.
Click to expand...
REALLY?? WOW!

I stay in a lot of hotels. Mostly all big name ones and with only one exception have I ever been walked away. That was with a hotel in mainland China where one does not expect a lot of customer care. But when I have gotten to hotels in the US and Europe that could not accommodate me due to there not being a room for my confirmed reservation they have always taken care of me by moving me to another equal hotel and in one case even providing me with a rental car on their dime.

Now I have had on numerous occasion gone to check in and the type of room I booked was not available. Generally I get upgraded when that happens. A few times downgraded, but the hotelier has comp'ed me with other perks as a result.
 
Last edited:
smigaldi said:
No argument from me on that.

Business serve those who give them the money, and when anything may jeopardize them from getting money they will say or do whatever it takes to stop it.
Click to expand...

Have you ever considered that not all businesses are out to make the maximum amount of money?

At AirNav, we are here to serve the aviation community -- and make some money along the way, why not? After all, we are a for-profit business. But we are not for profit at all costs, "say or do whatever it takes to get money".

We consider all GA participants (pilots and businesses) as our customers, even if most of our customers are not paying customers. We have some businesses that pay for advertising, we have some pilots that pay for things like AirBoss memberships. And we have many business and many pilots that don't pay anything. All are valued, all are respected, and it pains us a great deal to lose any customer -- paying or non-paying.
 
smigaldi said:
No argument from me on that.

Business serve those who give them the money, and when anything may jeopardize them from getting money they will say or do whatever it takes to stop it.
Click to expand...

airnav said:
Have you ever considered that not all businesses are out to make the maximum amount of money?
Click to expand...
Sure I have.

What is your point? I had not used the word "maximum" at all. If you are putting forth an idea why not address it to all who may read your post instead of just me?
 
Jay Honeck said:
You have touched on one of the biggest scams in the lodging industry: Over-booking. Most of the hoteliers I know over-book by as much as 20%, and then "walk" anyone who actually shows up once the hotel is full.
Click to expand...

Really? I thought the "walking" rules were there only in case the hotel had unexpectedly run out of rooms, such as a tree falling on the roof, or a plumbing problem, or the previous night's guest trashed the room. I guess I was too naïve.

On a side note (and mod, feel free to delete if this gets too far off topic), I was once told by a hotel manager that in their state (I think Florida, but not sure) they can not legally throw out a guest as long as the guest keeps paying their bill and does not disrupt the peace. This law caused them some problems, because some wise guests would wanted to stay for a period when the hotel was sold out would book only the night prior to the sold-out period, and then simply overstay into the sold-out period, causing them to be in an overbooking situation. Don't know whether this as true, it's just what the hotel manager told me and it sounded like a plausible explanation for overbooking.
 
smigaldi said:
Sure I have.

What is your point? I had not used the word "maximum" at all. If you are putting forth an idea why not address it to all who may read your post instead of just me?
Click to expand...

Duh, that is what I did, by posting publicly instead of through PM. :confused:
 
airnav said:
On a side note (and mod, feel free to delete if this gets too far off topic), I was once told by a hotel manager that in their state (I think Florida, but not sure) they can not legally throw out a guest as long as the guest keeps paying their bill and does not disrupt the peace..
Click to expand...
I have heard that too and not just in Florida. I had heard it from a Hyatt in California.

BTW PoA thrives on thread drift. ;)
 
This is a perfect example of a classic ambush job. Included is my response.

Ben.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several
friends.......


---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------------------

On the "801"

“This is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incorrectly
designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and
compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds
aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up
the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing
and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the
wing spars. Zenairs are not over designed to begin with having very
thin skins.

"The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently
confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise @ 11,000 msl is producing
5.9 0 -6.3 gallons an hour."

The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine
engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or
37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it
the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is
as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now
you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at
cruise.

Something is seriously wrong.

"The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for
each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most
airframes."

What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP
with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine
RPM. No way is that going to happen.

This person is totally clueless.

I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous
airplanes I have seen in a very long time.

Paul Lamar” :loco::loco::loco:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----------------------------------------------------------------
My response to this guy.....



I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications are but..

I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic.

My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other
source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental
aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are
a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life
experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only
knows whatever I have modified in earlier years.

I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built
one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have
been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes.

My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours.
Been flown in air from 97f to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown
from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of
dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power
settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's.
Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to
display their creations.

My responses..

1- When is this " accident" going to happen ??

2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web
site and look at the pics.

3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles
but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is
beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap.

4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And
it is less then his "estimation"

5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I
didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free
shot.

6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine has twice the
"suggested" HP and still has not broken in half.

7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to
ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90@ 6.4 GPH or
110@ 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the
fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built
another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple
conclusion.

8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can
dream about.

9- BSFC of .45 ??? Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that
rich.

10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously
throttled back.

11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different
redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain
any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no
brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for
sure doen not need any more power.

12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # from ? I turn the motor alot
higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but
nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter
prop.

13- """ Totally Clueless""" Ya wanna bet..

And in closing all I can add is
" I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous
airplanes I have seen in a very long time. "

Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????.
Ben Haas.



Anthony said:
Jealousy, pure and simple. Class warfare is so popular now that even, honest businesses are demonized. The profit motive is now a sin. Businesses are self correcting. If they don't give a good, fair service or product for the money they fail and are gone, or at least they do when the government doesn't own them.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top