Using a friend's airplane - Insurance question

KaiGywer

KaiGywer

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KaiGywer
So I have this great opportunity to use a PA28 for cost of gas only (yes I know it's a losing proposition for the owner, but he has money and is doing this to be nice and doesn't care about the hourly depreciation).

My question is this. I am currently a student pilot who is close to taking the checkride, if only the weather would cooperate. My flight instructor is on my friend's insurance as a CFI, so I can fly it with him onboard and be covered according to my friend. He said that if I want to fly it solo and once I get my license, he would just need to add me to his insurance policy. Since I am not paying to rent the plane, but I have no ownership interest in the plane either, would it still be a good idea for me to get renter's insurance?
 
Absolutely get non owned aircraft insurance. Its cheap and will protect you. If you are added to his policy as a named pilot that means he is covered if you auger it in and hurt someone but you are not. If you can be added as a named insured that's better but If it were me I'd get the renters insurance.
 
"Renter's insurance" is sort of a shorthand for what is actually "non-owned aircraft" insurance that typically covers you when operating an aircraft you don't own, whether rented or just borrowed.

Whether you need it or not in your situation and what is meant by "adding you to his insurance policy." There are two common ways of being "added" to a policy that mean completely different things (and the terms used and what they mean are not necessarily uniform). One can be added as a so-called "named pilot" which does about nothing to protect the aircraft borrower/renter; or one can be named as an "insured" which can do a lot more and may make a separate policy unnecessary.

The key is to understand exactly what the policy says (not what your friend says the policy says) before a decision is made.
 
Especially being a student pilot with low time , I would get renters insurance before I ever flew anyone else's airplane, and keep it after I got my ticket if you continue to use an airplane that does not belong to you. Sometimes "friendships" go south very quickly if something happens. This is pretty logical and straight forward. Call Avemco , tell them the story and they will give you a price quickly. I'm not sure if they will offer renters insurance to a student.
 
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Get on his policy, the guy is doing you a solid letting you use his airplane for free, don't burn him

Renters/non owners insurance is a great thing, but it has drawbacks, if you screw up and damage the plane it will cover it, HOWEVER if the plane screws up (engine failure, tire blow out, etc) it will NOT cover that, at least non of the Avemco policies that my students bought.

Add to that, if you don't qualify under any open pilot policy he might have in his existing insurance, its just a bad idea.
 
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James331 said:
Get on his policy, they guy is doing you a solid letting you use his airplane for free, don't burn him

Renters/non owners insurance is a great thing, but it has drawbacks, if you screw up and damage the plane it will cover it, HOWEVER if the plane screws up (engine failure, tire blow out, etc) it will NOT cover that, at least non of the Avemco policies that my students bought.

Add to that, if you don't qualify under any open pilot policy he might have in his existing insurance, its just a bad idea.
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James is right! Be careful!
 
Similar situation I've been through, get on the owner's policy and pay him/her the difference (it's probably going to be $100)
 
KaiGywer said:
So I have this great opportunity to use a PA28 for cost of gas only (yes I know it's a losing proposition for the owner, but he has money and is doing this to be nice and doesn't care about the hourly depreciation).

My question is this. I am currently a student pilot who is close to taking the checkride, if only the weather would cooperate. My flight instructor is on my friend's insurance as a CFI, so I can fly it with him onboard and be covered according to my friend. He said that if I want to fly it solo and once I get my license, he would just need to add me to his insurance policy. Since I am not paying to rent the plane, but I have no ownership interest in the plane either, would it still be a good idea for me to get renter's insurance?
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If you rent an airplane from an FBO , you have no interest in the airplane but to protect yourself you should have renters insurance. If you bend an airplane, usually, you are the one that pays to fix it. Articles on this appear regularly in flying publications.
 
Pay him the difference to be a named insured on his policy and buy your own policy for non owned aircraft. If something happens your policy covers the deductible on his policy. for a pa28 none of this would be cost prohibitive and in the event something happens you'll be glad to have the coverage.
 
I can almost guarantee you do not meet the requirements of his current binder. You may want to talk this over with him before doing anything..... Better yet,talk to his agent and get it squared up from there....
 
Bottom line is that if you are not an "additional insured" on the owner's policy (not just a "named pilot" or the like), you need your own non-owned (aka "renter's") insurance or you can really lose your assets.
 
I am in a similar situation. I am on his policy as a named pilot. I had renters insurance for a year but he said I didn't need it and his insurance agent, whom we both work with said it was not needed either. I don't pay him for the extra cost but I do 99% of the maintenance (I am an A&P and soon to be an IA hopefully) so I guess I do pay him. Very close friend and both of us would do anything to hurt the friendship. His attitude is that it is a machine and it can be replaced but friends can't.
My concern is what is my liability if I screw up and hurt someone else? Good question that I need to ensure that I am insured. I do have a personal umbrella policy for liability.
 
MD11Pilot said:
I am in a similar situation. I am on his policy as a named pilot. I had renters insurance for a year but he said I didn't need it and his insurance agent, whom we both work with said it was not needed either.
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It may not be needed by your friend, but it is most definitely needed by YOU. Being a "named pilot" means only that the policy protecting your friend remains in force while you are flying his plane -- it does not provide any protection at all for YOU. If you have an accident in that plane and a third party (including a passenger) suffers a loss (injury, property damage, whatever), that third party will sue YOU, and your friend's insurance will not cover YOU. Further, unless there's a "waiver of subrogation" clause in your friend's policy, if your friend's plane is damaged, your friend's insurer may subrogate against YOU to collect whatever they pay out to your friend.

My concern is what is my liability if I screw up and hurt someone else? Good question that I need to ensure that I am insured. I do have a personal umbrella policy for liability.
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You should check that umbrella policy, because virtually all of them exclude personal aviation activities. Better yet, take your umbrella policy and a copy of your friend's insurance policy to an aviation-savvy attorney for a review and explanation of your situation. I think you'll find that after that discussion, you won't fly your friend's plane again until you have your own non-owned ("renter") hull and liability policy.
 
Ron Levy said:
you won't fly your friend's plane again until you have your own non-owned ("renter") hull and liability policy.
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Can't he also be listed as a named insured? That would cover it, correct?
 
Bill Jennings said:
Can't he also be listed as a named insured? That would cover it, correct?
[emphasis added]
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It would, indeed, although it would dilute the value of the policy to the primary policy holder, which is why some policy holders don't like doing it.
 
Ron Levy said:
It would, indeed, although it would dilute the value of the policy to the primary policy holder, which is why some policy holders don't like doing it.
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what do you mean? I have a mooney, and my friend has a twin bonanza. We are named on each other's insurance policies. I just want to make sure we're doing it the right way.
 
AdamZ said:
If you are added to his policy as a named pilot that means he is covered if you auger it in and hurt someone but you are not.
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Not true.

I would need to see the policy language to be 100% certain. But I am 99.9% certain he would be covered as a named pilot.

There is probably an exclusion if you pay him for the use of the aircraft. But if you are filling the tank yourself and not paying for the use of the aircraft that exclusion probably doesn't apply.
 
rbridges said:
what do you mean? I have a mooney, and my friend has a twin bonanza. We are named on each other's insurance policies. I just want to make sure we're doing it the right way.
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"Dilution" means this:

Orville owns an airplane. He allows Peter to borrow it and has Peter listed as an additional insured under Orville's policy. Let's say it's a typical limited owner policy - $1,000,000 in liability with a $100,000 per seat limitation.

Accident happens while Peter is flying with a passenger and the passenger is injured. Let's say the passenger's claim is worth $250,000 and he sues both of you on a legal theory that holds the owner as well as the pilot accountable.

With the one policy and a "named insured" there is only $100,000 coverage available for the two of you. The extra $150,000? They can try to collect it from whichever of the two of you is easiest to collect from; each of you has $150,000 personal, non-insured exposure.

If Peter has renters insurance with similar coverage, there is $200,000 coverage available for the claim, and only $50,000 personal exposure for each of you.

There's more to it than that. And, as always, factual twists that can change the picture.

And in your situation, it's likely (you don't know unless you read the policies and understand what they say) that each of you have non-owner coverage built into your own policy, to cover you when flying the other's airplane (subject to any exclusions such as whether the single-engine pilocy covers operations in a twin).

That's the problem with answers to questions like this by some SGOTI. The very, very best one can do is speak in generalities. The real answer to "who is covered for what" is "I don't know. What does the policy say?"
 
Thanks to all of you for answering. I will sit down with him before doing anything and discuss the coverage in his policy. I will probably get renter's insurance also, since I also fly the rental planes at my FBO, and it would just be cheap additional coverage.
 
Thanks for the heads up. I will do what you said and check this out. Protection for all is the goal.



(QUOTE=Ron Levy;1606033]It may not be needed by your friend, but it is most definitely needed by YOU. Being a "named pilot" means only that the policy protecting your friend remains in force while you are flying his plane -- it does not provide any protection at all for YOU. If you have an accident in that plane and a third party (including a passenger) suffers a loss (injury, property damage, whatever), that third party will sue YOU, and your friend's insurance will not cover YOU. Further, unless there's a "waiver of subrogation" clause in your friend's policy, if your friend's plane is damaged, your friend's insurer may subrogate against YOU to collect whatever they pay out to your friend.

You should check that umbrella policy, because virtually all of them exclude personal aviation activities. Better yet, take your umbrella policy and a copy of your friend's insurance policy to an aviation-savvy attorney for a review and explanation of your situation. I think you'll find that after that discussion, you won't fly your friend's plane again until you have your own non-owned ("renter") hull and liability policy.[/QUOTE]
 
KaiGywer said:
Thanks to all of you for answering. I will sit down with him before doing anything and discuss the coverage in his policy. I will probably get renter's insurance also, since I also fly the rental planes at my FBO, and it would just be cheap additional coverage.
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Discuss it with him, but also his AGENT. He sounds like he's being very generous to you, it's not hard to get added to his policy as a named pilot. The cost difference probably won't be more than a few hundred $$ per year and it will save a world of headaches in the event something was to happen. :D
 
Thanks for this thread. Talked with my friends agent and I was not covered. He is coming up with a policy to take care of that for me.
 
Update on my situation.

My friends insurance agent had to go all the way to the underwriters to get the information we needed. Short answer is that as long as I have express permission of the owner and am a named pilot on the policy, then I am covered to the policy limits. I also asked about subrogation and for an extra fee of $25 I can get a Waiver of Subrogation clause added (check is in the mail). They said they traditionally do not go after a named pilot as they don't sue clients and that is what they consider a named pilot. BUT for a few bucks I can get a written waiver of subrogation. Done
Now this still does not cover my liability in case of injury to outside parties as I am sure some lawyer would try to sue me as a non-owner. I have a request into my personal agent to check my umbrella policy and if it doesn't cover me to see what we need to do to get it to or go ahead and buy a non owners policy as a few dollars extra insurance.
Glad this thread came up. I feel better now.
 
The policy that I had on 34V stated the pilot must be a PPL to be named pilot. but the policy would cover them if they were under instruction of a CFI that met the open pilot warrantee. Student pilots could not solo the aircraft.
 
Get. On the owners policy as a named pilot. If you think the coverage is low offer to pay to increase the value.
 
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