User Fees

[Approach_controller]

I know a husband and wife ATC team and they make over $450 K per year, plus a great pension package, That is too much.

You're absolutely right and I'm sure they'd agree. That's at a minimum 333 hours of overtime a year each, but more likely around 500 hours or more of overtime per person per year at the very busiest facilities. They've probably been working 6 day weeks for several years now. It isn't uncommon in facilities needing 6 day weeks just to function to have to change a controller's only day off from time to time for schedule limits.

So yeah, chronically short staffed, 20 minute breaks every two hours, 45 minutes to eat your meal if you're lucky, one day off a week that may or may not be the same day as your spouse (and forget about making plans if your scheduled OT day changes), little chance of ever leaving for a better quality of life (short of resigning) due to shortages, burned out working constant streams of the busiest traffic in the world, you can take vacation in February or try again next year because that's all that staffing will allow. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy if they were working less overtime. That would require hiring though, which hasn't happened at the rate it needed to for the last 9 years at a minimum.

I'm not writing this to attack you (what you said is entirely plausible), but as Paul Harvey said, That's the rest of the story.

As a controller who loves dealing with GA, especially now in Oshkosh season I get a little prickly when I see the other half of the story not told. The way I see it, if a Realtor spends 6 days a week at their office and makes the amount the people you know makes, they're a great Realtor. If a controller works those same hours and makes the same at the end of the year they are painted as leaches. Love us or hate us, we're one of the few federal employees who show up day in and day out when we're told, "oh everyone else is furloughed, no idea when you'll see your next pay check, see you tomorrow."

 

[MarkZ]

You're absolutely right and I'm sure they'd agree. That's at a minimum 333 hours of overtime a year each, but more likely around 500 hours or more of overtime per person per year at the very busiest facilities. They've probably been working 6 day weeks for several years now. It isn't uncommon in facilities needing 6 day weeks just to function to have to change a controller's only day off from time to time for schedule limits.



So yeah, chronically short staffed, 20 minute breaks every two hours, 45 minutes to eat your meal if you're lucky, one day off a week that may or may not be the same day as your spouse (and forget about making plans if your scheduled OT day changes), little chance of ever leaving for a better quality of life (short of resigning) due to shortages, burned out working constant streams of the busiest traffic in the world, you can take vacation in February or try again next year because that's all that staffing will allow. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy if they were working less overtime. That would require hiring though, which hasn't happened at the rate it needed to for the last 9 years at a minimum.



I'm not writing this to attack you (what you said is entirely plausible), but as Paul Harvey said, That's the rest of the story.



As a controller who loves dealing with GA, especially now in Oshkosh season I get a little prickly when I see the other half of the story not told. The way I see it, if a Realtor spends 6 days a week at their office and makes the amount the people you know makes, they're a great Realtor. If a controller works those same hours and makes the same at the end of the year they are painted as leaches. Love us or hate us, we're one of the few federal employees who show up day in and day out when we're told, "oh everyone else is furloughed, no idea when you'll see your next pay check, see you tomorrow."

Very well said.

 

[kayoh190]

I know a husband and wife ATC team and they make over $450 K per year, plus a great pension package, That is too much.

Would you have a problem with that number if they were privately employed?

 

[N801BH]

You're absolutely right and I'm sure they'd agree. That's at a minimum 333 hours of overtime a year each, but more likely around 500 hours or more of overtime per person per year at the very busiest facilities. They've probably been working 6 day weeks for several years now. It isn't uncommon in facilities needing 6 day weeks just to function to have to change a controller's only day off from time to time for schedule limits.

So yeah, chronically short staffed, 20 minute breaks every two hours, 45 minutes to eat your meal if you're lucky, one day off a week that may or may not be the same day as your spouse (and forget about making plans if your scheduled OT day changes), little chance of ever leaving for a better quality of life (short of resigning) due to shortages, burned out working constant streams of the busiest traffic in the world, you can take vacation in February or try again next year because that's all that staffing will allow. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy if they were working less overtime. That would require hiring though, which hasn't happened at the rate it needed to for the last 9 years at a minimum.

I'm not writing this to attack you (what you said is entirely plausible), but as Paul Harvey said, That's the rest of the story.

As a controller who loves dealing with GA, especially now in Oshkosh season I get a little prickly when I see the other half of the story not told. The way I see it, if a Realtor spends 6 days a week at their office and makes the amount the people you know makes, they're a great Realtor. If a controller works those same hours and makes the same at the end of the year they are painted as leaches. Love us or hate us, we're one of the few federal employees who show up day in and day out when we're told, "oh everyone else is furloughed, no idea when you'll see your next pay check, see you tomorrow."

Good post and information... But...

After numerous government shut downs, the fed workers have it down pat on how to squeeze out ever dollar during those times.... I have first hand experience as about 1000 federal workers live here in Jackson Hole and either work in Yellowstone or Grand Teton National Park, or in the Bridger Teton National Forest or the BLM..

The first shut down they were all concerned they would never get paid... Then the guv restarted business and they all got back pay.
Now they all know to go on vacation and enjoy a lengthy paid period of time off.... They all actually hope for a guv shut down now...

Long story short.. It is a good time to be a guv worker...

 

[Approach_controller]

Good post and information... But...

After numerous government shut downs, the fed workers have it down pat on how to squeeze out ever dollar during those times.... I have first hand experience as about 1000 federal workers live here in Jackson Hole and either work in Yellowstone or Grand Teton National Park, or in the Bridger Teton National Forest or the BLM..

The first shut down they were all concerned they would never get paid... Then the guv restarted business and they all got back pay.
Now they all know to go on vacation and enjoy a lengthy paid period of time off.... They all actually hope for a guv shut down now...

Long story short.. It is a good time to be a guv worker...

Sure, thats true. Don't confuse controllers with the group you speak of though. I'm required to work during that time people unlike those you speak of. I worked when they were furloughed and received back pay. I received partial checks because nobody was there to process my payroll. I didn't know when my next check would come. The one day I was actually furloughed for last year I did not/will not get paid for.

So yeah, I actually hope for a shut down so I can stress out wondering when I'll get my next pay check while I push all of that out of my mind while I sit at work separating pilots like yourself. Or if you're more of a 1200 code kind of pilot separate everyone else from you.

You obviously haven't met so called "essential" Federal employees so I can see your attitude and believe me, controllers get hacked off when the same people who blow off early during a snow storm get a week or two off during political infighting. I wouldn't presume you to be so callous as to find joy from me not knowing when my next paycheck comes so I'll ignore the smileys.

 

[MarkZ]

Good post and information... But...

After numerous government shut downs, the fed workers have it down pat on how to squeeze out ever dollar during those times.... I have first hand experience as about 1000 federal workers live here in Jackson Hole and either work in Yellowstone or Grand Teton National Park, or in the Bridger Teton National Forest or the BLM..

The first shut down they were all concerned they would never get paid... Then the guv restarted business and they all got back pay.
Now they all know to go on vacation and enjoy a lengthy paid period of time off.... They all actually hope for a guv shut down now...

Long story short.. It is a good time to be a guv worker...

It's funny Ben, you highlighted AC's last line, but it would appear you ignored it.

We pay taxes. We pay into all our benefits. We don't get discounts, perks, or anything special for the job. None of us want those things either. The pride in doing our duty for the public good is sufficient enough.

If there is a shutdown, we don't get any free rides. We come into work knowing that eventually we will get paid to work. But right now, there are planes that need sequencing/separating.

If I get a call from work telling me to come in, I do my civic duty. I give my wife and kids a kiss goodbye, and I hit the road. Just like I and hundreds others did during the Chicago ATC shutdown.

And I know for a fact, controller friends of mine across the nation expressed regret: they wished they could have helped out more during that shutdown. It's the way we are wired.

 

[N801BH]

It's funny Ben, you highlighted AC's last line, but it would appear you ignored it.

We pay taxes. We pay into all our benefits. We don't get discounts, perks, or anything special for the job. None of us want those things either. The pride in doing our duty for the public good is sufficient enough.

If there is a shutdown, we don't get any free rides. We come into work knowing that eventually we will get paid to work. But right now, there are planes that need sequencing/separating.

If I get a call from work telling me to come in, I do my civic duty. I give my wife and kids a kiss goodbye, and I hit the road. Just like I and hundreds others did during the Chicago ATC shutdown.

And I know for a fact, controller friends of mine across the nation expressed regret: they wished they could have helped out more during that shutdown. It's the way we are wired.

And I thank all you guys and gals for your high quality of work.......

Now I owe ya 2 kegs of beer............

 

[Approach_controller]

It's funny Ben, you highlighted AC's last line, but it would appear you ignored it.

We pay taxes. We pay into all our benefits. We don't get discounts, perks, or anything special for the job. None of us want those things either. The pride in doing our duty for the public good is sufficient enough.

If there is a shutdown, we don't get any free rides. We come into work knowing that eventually we will get paid to work. But right now, there are planes that need sequencing/separating.

If I get a call from work telling me to come in, I do my civic duty. I give my wife and kids a kiss goodbye, and I hit the road. Just like I and hundreds others did during the Chicago ATC shutdown.

And I know for a fact, controller friends of mine across the nation expressed regret: they wished they could have helped out more during that shutdown. It's the way we are wired.

All of this. All of it. I regret I edited my post after seeing this.

I'll refer him to the ZAU fire. Flying magazine did a great article I'd be glad to dig up the link to. People leaving for work in the am, learning what happened and volunteering to drive with the clothes on their back to any city they were needed at.

I know during my furlough day I sat at home watching delays pile up on the FAA website feeling disgusted and wanting to help.

 

[mtuomi]

It's hard to hate the ATC folks, they actually do a darn good job.

Nothing makes you appreciate US ATC controllers more than flying in countries like Belgium, Italy and Spain...

 

[nddons]

You're absolutely right and I'm sure they'd agree. That's at a minimum 333 hours of overtime a year each, but more likely around 500 hours or more of overtime per person per year at the very busiest facilities. They've probably been working 6 day weeks for several years now. It isn't uncommon in facilities needing 6 day weeks just to function to have to change a controller's only day off from time to time for schedule limits.



So yeah, chronically short staffed, 20 minute breaks every two hours, 45 minutes to eat your meal if you're lucky, one day off a week that may or may not be the same day as your spouse (and forget about making plans if your scheduled OT day changes), little chance of ever leaving for a better quality of life (short of resigning) due to shortages, burned out working constant streams of the busiest traffic in the world, you can take vacation in February or try again next year because that's all that staffing will allow. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy if they were working less overtime. That would require hiring though, which hasn't happened at the rate it needed to for the last 9 years at a minimum.



I'm not writing this to attack you (what you said is entirely plausible), but as Paul Harvey said, That's the rest of the story.



As a controller who loves dealing with GA, especially now in Oshkosh season I get a little prickly when I see the other half of the story not told. The way I see it, if a Realtor spends 6 days a week at their office and makes the amount the people you know makes, they're a great Realtor. If a controller works those same hours and makes the same at the end of the year they are painted as leaches. Love us or hate us, we're one of the few federal employees who show up day in and day out when we're told, "oh everyone else is furloughed, no idea when you'll see your next pay check, see you tomorrow."

I think I'm about to shed a tear here. Those poor, poor controllers. It must suck to retire a decade earlier than folks in the public sector, with something called a "Pension."

 

[Palmpilot]

I think I'm about to shed a tear here. Those poor, poor controllers. It must suck to retire a decade earlier than folks in the public sector, with something called a "Pension."

They were attacked, and now you're ridiculing them for defending themselves?

 

[Bob Noel]

I think I'm about to shed a tear here. Those poor, poor controllers. It must suck to retire a decade earlier than folks in the public sector, with something called a "Pension."

There is particular skill required.

There is a level of stress endured.

Remember what happened to that controller who watched a 747 cross an active runway in front of a departing 747? Did you hear his voice on the tape telling the crossing 747 to stop?

I'm having trouble thinking that the pension isn't earned.

 

[nddons]

They were attacked, and now you're ridiculing them for defending themselves?

Post 117 was an "attack"? Then someone needs a thicker skin.

Approach controller was trying to elicit sympathy for a controller's working conditions. Sorry, but it's tough all over. I don't begrudge them for their pay and benefits per se. That's the deal that they struck with the government. I do think it's a crock to think that they have it harder than other folks, and that was the point of my post.

Cops and firemen have it tough. The military have it tough. Some business owners who "only" work 6 days a week or 60 hours a week are doing it part time. Hell even CPAs who work 60-80 hours a week during tax season and 50 hours a week year round have it tough. And defined benefit pension plans are largely unavailable in the private sector any more. "Retirement" is usually based on what you've stashed away in 401(k) plans.

I have some retired friends with three pensions (the husband with a military and major airline pension, the wife with a controller pension) who own a couple of planes and their own hangar, and are living large. I don't begrudge them. I envy them. And I'm very happy for them. But I never heard them complain about their working conditions.

 

[nddons]

There is particular skill required.

There is a level of stress endured.

Remember what happened to that controller who watched a 747 cross an active runway in front of a departing 747? Did you hear his voice on the tape telling the crossing 747 to stop?

I'm having trouble thinking that the pension isn't earned.

Your first two sentences apply to many, many professions. White collar folks die of stress too.

And I never said the pension wasn't earned. I'm saying that for such conditions, they are fairly compensated.

 

[Bob Noel]

Your first two sentences apply to many, many professions. White collar folks die of stress too.

And I never said the pension wasn't earned. I'm saying that for such conditions, they are fairly compensated.

I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of your post.

 

[aterpster]

And I never said the pension wasn't earned. I'm saying that for such conditions, they are fairly compensated.

I have dealt with many FAA employees over the years. Most non-controllers don't like the controller workforce. These other employees feel the controller workforce is greatly over-compensated.

 

[MarkZ]

Your first two sentences apply to many, many professions. White collar folks die of stress too.



And I never said the pension wasn't earned. I'm saying that for such conditions, they are fairly compensated.

I don't think Approach Controller was looking for pity, or anything for that matter. I think he saw a post (#117) that gave a stark impression of being rife with hyperbole. Meant to rile up emotion that controllers are overpaid. I agree 100% with Approach Controller's response. We don't want sympathy, thanks, or accolades. We want the ability to do our job without worrying about being a political football.

 

[Palmpilot]

Approach controller was trying to elicit sympathy...

I think your mind reading skills are in need of recurrent training.

 

[kayoh190]

I have dealt with many FAA employees over the years. Most non-controllers don't like the controller workforce. These other employees feel the controller workforce is greatly over-compensated.

Sounds just like the airlines. My non-pilot coworkers don't like how I'm paid either.

 

[hindsight2020]

Envy of other's compensation is not limited to civil servant bashing. The idea that retiring on just a 401k is ok is a problem in my eyes though, because largely that mode of retirement has failed miserably for the majority of participants who have it as a primary vehicle. To then begrudge those who have been able to preserve their pensions is sour grapes.

Look at the airlines, defaulted on pension promises and now instituted B-funds. Why can't private workers demand B-funds for themselves in the at-large private labor marketplace? It's not an A-fund, so what's the problem? Private workers need to look in the mirror sometimes for their lot in life. Maybe if you believed a little less in that bootstrap bravado horatio alger bit we'd all be better off for the same level of productivity employed. In the aggregate, Americans are disheartened overworked laborers, especially compared to hedonistic Europeans. So it's not for a lack of working that y'all are getting paid crap compared to your parents....

 

[aterpster]

Sounds just like the airlines. My non-pilot coworkers don't like how I'm paid either.

Same case when I was a pilot for TWA.

But, we carried the airline.

The controllers do not carry the FAA.

 

[Approach_controller]

Since my post confused some, allow me to try and clear it up.

1) Post 117 referred to a couple of controllers making large sums of money declaring it too much money in a thread about user fees. Nothing about that post offended me, I just decided to attempt to flesh out the rest of that claim with facts in the interest of fairness.

2) I decided to do the math and show just how much overtime would have to be worked at a bare minimum to earn the quoted sum. I did this to show that while technically possible, it is completely abnormal and demonstrate the sum quoted wasn't due to salary per say, but instead due largely to short staffing, poor hiring practices and required extra hours of work.

3) I posted information regarding working conditions not to elicit sympathy. I posted that section to show that yes, the controllers posted about, would likely gladly trade in those hundreds of overtime hours (and thus their inflated pay) for two days off together and the possibility of taking a week or two off during the summer to go on vacation with their children during summer break. Again, I'm not trying to seek sympathy, but pointing the finger saying "Look how much THIS guy makes" while ignoring the fact that they'd probably rather make less and actually have time with their family is myopic and if intentional, inflammatory.

Just to clear up any confusion, I believe we are fairly compensated. Anyone who accepts a job has to make that decision for themselves. I took this job knowing the details of what would be required of me and believed the compensation as a whole entity more than fair. Just like anyone else, just like a private sector worker, business owner, contractor, service member, first responder, whatever. That's down to an individual decision. And no, I don't believe I have it harder than a military member, first responder, teacher, business owner, or you.

In a way though its like asking what's so hard about being a school teacher. You work eight hours a day with an hour for lunch, teaching 3rd grade topics and work less than nine months a year. On its face it seems like something totally different than what it actually is unless someone comes by and mentions the rest of what the job entails.

 

[Clip4]

This ought to give pause to people who think that electing members of a certain political party will solve all their problems.

You do realize the article is about a repub introducing the user fee bill?

 

[Palmpilot]

You do realize the article is about a repub introducing the user fee bill?

That's why I wrote what I wrote.

 

[aterpster]

http://roadwarriorvoices.com/2015/07/20/intoxicated-air-traffic-controller-found-shirtless-unconscious-on-floor-of-control-tower/