US Navy training with Beech T-34 Mentor

[tomdocherty72]

Hi All,

My first post here. Have done some thread searching and found it to be a most interesting site. I am hoping to make contact with US Navy/Marines aviators who learned to fly in the T-34B/C Mentor. I am writing an article about the type in USN service and would like to here about its good points, vices, any near misses experienced; and if there are any maintainers on here what was it like to maintain and keep flying? I look forward to hearing from you all.

Yours

Tom Docherty

 

[AdamZ]

Perhaps Lee Kitson will chime in. He has several hours in a T-34 but not as a military pilot. The one thing I can tell you from my rides in the plane is that they are loud in the cockpit and passive noise reduction headsets seem to work much better than active noise reduction headsets in reducing the noise.

 

[Tom-D]

if there are any maintainers on here what was it like to maintain and keep flying? I look forward to hearing from you all.

Tom Docherty

I spent 6 months in VT-1 Saufley Field Pensacola, awaiting "A" school in 1961/

we worked 12 on 12 off 7 days a week. If you were 1 minute late for work, you got 1 hours of extra military instruction, (EMI) the Squadron had 150 T-34-B assigned at any time there were 50 in for maintenance.

VT-1 was by far the worst place in the NAVY for enlisted. the rest of the training command (VT-) wasn't much better.

I rendered the command in 62 for flight training and it still sucked. fortunately the JOs would not associate with enlisted we thought that was great. senior flight instructors thought we were special, and teated us as such, insisting we do every thing prefect, or it would be our last flight.

as I went thru 22 years in the navy I always thought VT-1 was a sliver in my A$$.

 

[tomdocherty72]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that. Doe Lee Kitson post under his own name or should I look out for an avatar/nickname?

 

[tomdocherty72]

Hi NC19143,

Thanks for your obviously strong feelings about VT-1 and servicing and flying training. You obviously survived the aviator training! What was the Mentor like to fly - did it have any vices or idiocyncracies?

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that. Doe Lee Kitson post under his own name or should I look out for an avatar/nickname?

Look for Nav8tor

 

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks Rob.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I spent 6 months in VT-1 Saufley Field Pensacola, awaiting "A" school in 1961/

we worked 12 on 12 off 7 days a week. If you were 1 minute late for work, you got 1 hours of extra military instruction, (EMI) the Squadron had 150 T-34-B assigned at any time there were 50 in for maintenance.

VT-1 was by far the worst place in the NAVY for enlisted. the rest of the training command (VT-) wasn't much better.

I rendered the command in 62 for flight training and it still sucked. fortunately the JOs would not associate with enlisted we thought that was great. senior flight instructors thought we were special, and teated us as such, insisting we do every thing prefect, or it would be our last flight.

as I went thru 22 years in the navy I always thought VT-1 was a sliver in my A$$.

You obviously survived the aviator training!

So Tom, what happened in your flight training as obviously you were not a military aviator? You retired as an enlisted AD correct?

 

[Tom-D]

So Tom, what happened in your flight training as obviously you were not a military aviator? You retired as an enlisted AD correct?

end of program. no more EC-121/R-7 or any other recip's after 74. retired as a chief metal smith out of VAQ-131.

all enlisted pilots carried their enlisted NEC their entire career. E-1 thru E9 I was always an AMH.

 

[RotorAndWing]

end of program. no more EC-121/R-7 or any other recip's after 74. retired as a chief metal smith out of VAQ-131.

all enlisted pilots carried their enlisted NEC their entire career. E-1 thru E9 I was always an AMH.

I was in Atsugi Japan in 1978/79 and we had the DC-3's (don't remember the Navy designation) and the last enlisted pilot serving there.

So you were an Enlisted Navy Pilot and also worked as a AMH in a shop?

 

[Tom-D]

I was in Atsugi Japan in 1978/79 and we had the DC-3's (don't remember the Navy designation) and the last enlisted pilot serving there.

So you were an Enlisted Navy Pilot and also worked as a AMH in a shop?

Maybe there were enlisted pilots after 74, I know the program ended for me when I was offered orders to VAQ-129 FFT 135 in 74.

and yes my primary job was always in the shops. but was TAD to several commands as flight crew.

 

[FlySince9]

Julie Clark´s MOPAR T-34 - American Aerobatics, Inc.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Maybe there were enlisted pilots after 74, I know the program ended for me when I was offered orders to VAQ-129 FFT 135 in 74.

and yes my primary job was always in the shops. but was TAD to several commands as flight crew.

So you were a NAP (enlisted Naval Aviation Pilot)?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Maybe there were enlisted pilots after 74, I know the program ended for me when I was offered orders to VAQ-129 FFT 135 in 74.

and yes my primary job was always in the shops. but was TAD to several commands as flight crew.

Did some more research on the subject of NAP's (Naval Aviation Pilots) who were enlisted men that were trained as Naval Aviators.

http://bluejacket.com/sea-service_nap_index.htm

The Enlisted Flight Training Program is cut following World War Two. A few enlisted pilots receive training after the war, but in 1948 Congress ends the requirement for enlisted aviators. Whereas, some hold 1948 as the termination of the NAP program, in fact many enlisted pilots continue their careers in the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard in the following decades.

Interesting, as I'm ready the list of Enlisted Naval Aviators your name is not listed. How come?

http://bluejacket.com/sea-service_nap_d-g.htm

Reading here it says the NAP program was dropped in 1948. However in your post:

I rendered the command in 62 for flight training and it still sucked. fortunately the JOs would not associate with enlisted we thought that was great. senior flight instructors thought we were special, and teated us as such, insisting we do every thing prefect, or it would be our last flight.

as I went thru 22 years in the navy I always thought VT-1 was a sliver in my A$$.

Here is the National Naval Aviation Museum and what they have to say on the subject:

The designation of enlisted pilots continued until the program’s discontinuation in 1947, the last of the Navy’s NAPs, Master Chief Air Controlman Robert K. Jones, retiring in 1981.

Care to explain? IIRC you were born around 1943?

 

[j1b3h0]

I was not trained by the military to fly, but spent almost all of my salary as a young enlisted man renting the Navy flying clubs' T-34. I think my logbook adds up to about 70hrs in the airplane. The airplane rented for $17hr/wet (sigh) in 1975. The T-34 is one of the nicest flying light airplanes ever built. The controls are light, ball-bearing smooth, responsive and harmonious. It's the first airplane I ever flew that one adjusted the rudder pedals instead of the seat. It has 3-axis trim, and its cockpit is like so many other military trainers in its layout. It's augmenter tube exhaust is noisy as hell, and it's somewhat underpowered, particularly if, for some reason the nosegear doors were removed. A Luscombe would outclimb it, as it took forever to reach 5,000ft. One could do beautiful rolls in the airplane, but any vertical manuevers required diving the bejesus out of it to get the speed up. I spent many pleasureable hours, flying low over the Mississippi river, doing touch & goes and looping and rolling to my hearts content.
That said, I think the T-34 is one of the most obscenely over-priced airplanes you can buy, and any good Bonanza can fly circles around it (aerobatics notwithstanding). For half the price you could buy an RV-8 that will practically vertical roll from level cruise at 50kts faster, while burning less gas with equally nice controls.

 

[Witmo]

It's been quite awhile since the Navy trained in piston powered Mentors. When did they switch over to the turboprop C models? mid 70s maybe?

 

[Tom-D]

Did some more research on the subject of NAP's (Naval Aviation Pilots) who were enlisted men that were trained as Naval Aviators.
When you consider that those enlisted pilots entering the service during the war, could have served 30 years as a career, that would have retired them in the mid 70s.

http://bluejacket.com/sea-service_nap_index.htm

Interesting, as I'm ready the list of Enlisted Naval Aviators your name is not listed. How come?


Nether is a lot of enlisted pilots like Jake Brown Rodger Trent and several others I know were flying at Pt.Mugu Naval missal center and the Pacific Missile Range WVII, didn't they get listed, I have no clue, except that maybe the person who wrote that page didn't know about them.

http://bluejacket.com/sea-service_nap_d-g.htm

Reading here it says the NAP program was dropped in 1948. However in your post:


the 48 date was when the REQUIREMENT for the programe was dropped, many entered after that, me included.

Here is the National Naval Aviation Museum and what they have to say on the subject:
tell me how this master chief could have served until 1981? if no body came into the program after 1948?

NAPs, Master Chief Air Controlman Robert K. Jones, retiring in 1981.


Care to explain? IIRC you were born around 1943?

my DOB is 1940. I didn't enter service until 1960.

 

[gkainz]

Did some more research on the subject of NAP's (Naval Aviation Pilots) who were enlisted men that were trained as Naval Aviators.
...

Why so antagonistic?

 

[RotorAndWing]

my DOB is 1940. I didn't enter service until 1960.

So the NAP program ended in 1948. How would you have been rated as an enlisted aviator (NAP) if you entered the service in 1960, 12 years after Congress dissolved the program?

The Enlisted Flight Training Program is cut following World War Two. A few enlisted pilots receive training after the war, but in 1948 Congress ends the requirement for enlisted aviators. Whereas, some hold 1948 as the termination of the NAP program, in fact many enlisted pilots continue their careers in the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard in the following decades.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Why so antagonistic?

He was just asking questions.

I, too, am curious about the date descrepancies. The cited reference indicates the program ended in 1948.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Why so antagonistic?

Because something is not adding up here. Tom claims to have done something that clearly with a little research shows it's not true.

 

[RotorAndWing]

tell me how this master chief could have served until 1981? if no body came into the program after 1948?

NAPs, Master Chief Air Controlman Robert K. Jones, retiring in 1981.

Others remained on enlisted status throughout their careers, serving in the ranks of chiefs, senior chiefs, and master chiefs that represent the heart and soul of the Navy. Among them was Robert K. Jones, who enlisted in the Navy in March 1943 and completed flight training in August 1947. Typical of the life of a sailor, he lived and flew at bases scattered around the United States and overseas, the latter including Spain, England, and Saigon, Republic of Vietnam. Serving in the latter location during 1967-1968, Jones logged hours in fixed and rotary-wing aircraft, a flight in an H-34 helicopter on the first day of the Tet offensive in 1968 ending with he and a passenger being shot down and crashing on a downtown building. When he retired on 31 January 1981, Jones’ flight hours numbered 11,000 and he was qualified in more than twenty-five aircraft.

http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/getdoc/ee28ded2-2bb3-45e7-9790-8c4eddc3c8f8/January-2009.aspx

 

[gkainz]

I know for a fact that there's a lot of "facts" on the innerwebz that don't square with real life...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Flight_Officer

A Naval Flight Officer (NFO) is an aeronautically designated commissioned officer in the United States Navy or United States Marine Corps that specializes in airborne weapons and sensor systems. NFOs are not pilots (Naval Aviators) per se, but they may perform many "co-pilot" functions, depending on the type of aircraft. Until 1966, their duties were performed by both officer and senior enlisted Naval Aviation Observers (NAO).

In 1966, enlisted personnel were removed from NAO duties (but continued to serve in enlisted aircrew roles), NAO officers received the newly established NFO designation, and the NFO insignia was introduced.[1] NFOs in the Navy are unrestricted line officers, eligible for command at sea and ashore in the naval aviation communities. ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
looks like more conflicting info there as well?


I was a Naval Aircrewman, have over 1000 hours in the E-2 Hawkeye, was designated Air Intercept Controller (AIC) and performed every duty (plus more) of either of the two NFOs that shared the back end of the tube with me. Cursory internet searches could lead one to claim I'm lying, as the E-2 program eliminated the NAC seat after I got out. So, does my story not add up?

 

[RotorAndWing]

I know for a fact that there's a lot of "facts" on the innerwebz that don't square with real life...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Flight_Officer

A Naval Flight Officer (NFO) is an aeronautically designated commissioned officer in the United States Navy or United States Marine Corps that specializes in airborne weapons and sensor systems. NFOs are not pilots (Naval Aviators) per se, but they may perform many "co-pilot" functions, depending on the type of aircraft. Until 1966, their duties were performed by both officer and senior enlisted Naval Aviation Observers (NAO).

In 1966, enlisted personnel were removed from NAO duties (but continued to serve in enlisted aircrew roles), NAO officers received the newly established NFO designation, and the NFO insignia was introduced.[1] NFOs in the Navy are unrestricted line officers, eligible for command at sea and ashore in the naval aviation communities. ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
looks like more conflicting info there as well?


I was a Naval Aircrewman, have over 1000 hours in the E-2 Hawkeye, was designated Air Intercept Controller (AIC) and performed every duty (plus more) of either of the two NFOs that shared the back end of the tube with me. Cursory internet searches could lead one to claim I'm lying, as the E-2 program eliminated the NAC seat after I got out. So, does my story not add up?

If you can provide proof that there were enlisted NAP's trained after 1948 we sure would like to see it.

 

[Tom-D]

Others remained on enlisted status throughout their careers, serving in the ranks of chiefs, senior chiefs, and master chiefs that represent the heart and soul of the Navy. Among them was Robert K. Jones, who enlisted in the Navy in March 1943 and completed flight training in August 1947. Typical of the life of a sailor, he lived and flew at bases scattered around the United States and overseas, the latter including Spain, England, and Saigon, Republic of Vietnam. Serving in the latter location during 1967-1968, Jones logged hours in fixed and rotary-wing aircraft, a flight in an H-34 helicopter on the first day of the Tet offensive in 1968 ending with he and a passenger being shot down and crashing on a downtown building. When he retired on 31 January 1981, Jones’ flight hours numbered 11,000 and he was qualified in more than twenty-five aircraft.

http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/getdoc/ee28ded2-2bb3-45e7-9790-8c4eddc3c8f8/January-2009.aspx

My hero, broken service Yep..

most of the enlisted pilots entered the service during the war, known best as the "Flying Tigers" and were enlisted as pilots, day one they were pilots.

Those who became enlisted pilots later, were not enlisted as pilots, Many like myself enlisted as an E-1, later selected for flight training, Were we part of the NAP program? I don't really know, or care.

 

[RotorAndWing]

My hero, broken service Yep..

most of the enlisted pilots entered the service during the war, known best as the "Flying Tigers" and were enlisted as pilots, day one they were pilots.

Those who became enlisted pilots later, were not enlisted as pilots, Many like myself enlisted as an E-1, later selected for flight training, Were we part of the NAP program? I don't really know, or care.

Huh?

You didn't know which program you were in???

And it's very clear there were no, none, nada, zip enlisted trained as pilots in the Navy past 1948.

 

[Tom-D]

Huh?

You didn't know which program you were in???

And it's very clear there were no, none, nada, zip enlisted trained as pilots in the Navy past 1948.

yep what ever.

This thread has proven to be that you never say any thing to the FAA less they try to make it some thing it isn't.

I know what my DD 214s say. That's all that matters, And I'll certainly not scan them in and post here, to prove you wrong.

 

[gkainz]

If you can provide proof that there were enlisted NAP's trained after 1948 we sure would like to see it.

This thread is the first time I've ever heard of NAP pgm, so I can't speak to it from any personal experience.

edit: here ya go! http://www.usmilitary.com/5337/navy-enlisted-pilot-education-options/

 

[Tom-D]

This thread is the first time I've ever heard of NAP pgm, so I can't speak to it from any personal experience.

NAP was what created the "Flying Tigers" it ended in 48, that does not mean the NAVY quit training enlisted to fly after that.

 

[RotorAndWing]

yep what ever.

This thread has proven to be that you never say any thing to the FAA less they try to make it some thing it isn't.

What's this have to do with the FAA?

I know what my DD 214s say. That's all that matters, And I'll certainly not scan them in and post here, to prove you wrong.

Military records are now easily accessible via FOIA.

 

[RotorAndWing]

NAP was what created the "Flying Tigers" it ended in 48, that does not mean the NAVY quit training enlisted to fly after that.

Prove it.

 

[Tom-D]

What's this have to do with the FAA?
you are or are not a FAA type, trained to spin any subject into some thing to make anyone else look bad?
Now demonstrating your abilities.

Military records are now easily accessible via FOIA.

mine were archived years ago, and personnel records can not be retrieved unless you have permission or a court order. simply because they contain medical records and S/S numbers and such.

 

[Tom-D]

Prove it.

I don't have to, you are the one who has made the issue, you prove they didn't.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I don't have to, you are the one who has made the issue, you prove they didn't.

I have. Go back and read the links I posted, it's very clear.

 

[SCCutler]

I have. Go back and read the links I posted, it's very clear.

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. I see that the program denominated "NAP" was ended in 1948; ambiguous at best, but I see no reference (yet) which affirmatively states that no Navy enlisted personnel ever received pilot training after 1948.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. I see that the program denominated "NAP" was ended in 1948; ambiguous at best, but I see no reference (yet) which affirmatively states that no Navy enlisted personnel ever received pilot training after 1948.

Over ruled.

Do the research counselor. I have, and I served in the Navy from 77 to 81 as an enlisted (Avionics Tech). One thing about the Navy is they do nothing unless there is a program to back it up and approved by the Pentagon.

The Navy just did not arbitrarily pick out enlisted personnel and send them through flight training and leave them at the enlisted rank, not after 1948 when Congress dissolved the need for having enlisted aviators.

There was the NavCad program that came later, but those selected from the enlisted ranks were given commissions (officers).

Here is an interesting read on the various programs the Navy has done:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Cadet_Training_Program_(USN)

 

[Tom-D]

Over ruled.

Do the research counselor. I have, and I served in the Navy from 77 to 81 as an enlisted (Avionics Tech). One thing about the Navy is they do nothing unless there is a program to back it up and approved by the Pentagon.

Not true. any squadron CO could and still can recommend any sailor in their command to any school or training they wish.

The navy's policy now is to not train enlisted for flight unless they gain a 4 year degree, and qualify for a commission.

These programs were not available during the VN time frame. we simply went to VT 1 got the training, came back to the Squadron and went to work. doing what the skipper wanted us to.
Program name? who the hell cared.

Now they make them Warrant Officers.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Not true. any squadron CO could and still can recommend any sailor in their command to any school or training they wish.

The navy's policy now is to not train enlisted for flight unless they gain a 4 year degree, and qualify for a commission.

These programs were not available during the VN time frame.

If you were a Naval Aviator then I was an astronaut.

And trying to hide under the guise of "the VN time frame" won't cut it either.

Congress ended the requirement for the enlisted aviators back in 1948 and it was never reinstated.

we simply went to VT 1 got the training, came back to the Squadron and went to work. doing what the skipper wanted us to.
Program name? who the hell cared.

Yea, right.

Also interesting that someone who professes to be a military trained aviator would not have transferred those ratings over to civilian after discharge or would have carried over their military flight time to civilian.

 

[Tom-D]

If you were a Naval Aviator then I was an astronaut.

And trying to hide under the guise of "the VN time frame" won't cut it either.

Congress ended the requirement for the enlisted aviators back in 1948 and it was never reinstated.

That's how you get to be a Warrant officer now right?

because you sure ain't born that way. you are chosen by your CO, sent to flight training and upon completion your commissioned W4.

What's the name of that Program.

 

[RotorAndWing]

That's how you get to be a Warrant officer now right?

because you sure ain't born that way. you are chosen by your CO, sent to flight training and upon completion your commissioned W4.

What's the name of that Program.

This?

Navy Establishes Trial Warrant Officer-to-Pilot Program
Story Number: NNS060125-08
1/25/2006




From Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The Navy is seeking applications from highly-qualified and hard-charging Sailors for a pilot program that will place 30 selected Chief Warrant Officers (CWO) in aircraft cockpits as pilots and naval flight officers.

The intent is to create flying specialists unencumbered by the traditional career paths of the unrestricted line (URL) community.

"The concept is simple," said Cmdr. Steve Knott, head of Aviation Placement, PERS-433. "Replace a percentage of the pilots and NFOs in squadrons that have large junior officer aviator populations and corresponding low department head opportunity with Chief Warrant Officers who can return to these squadrons again and again and perform the same duties they did before, with no career penalty.”

Targeted communities include Patrol (VP), Electronic Attack (VQ(P) and VQ(T)) and the HSC and HSL helicopter communities.

Targeted enlisted candidates include those between paygrades E-5 and E-7 and also young enough to be commissioned by their 27th birthday (29 for NFOs); they must also possess an associate’s degree or higher, meet aviation physical qualifications, pass Aviation Standard Battery Test (ASTB) minimums and be eligible for a secret security clearance.

Enlisted Sailors from the Nuclear, Naval Special Warfare(SEAL/SWCC), Naval Special Operations (EOD/Diver) and the Master-at-Arms communities are not eligible.

Selectees will not be eligible for department head (DH) tours and will fill junior officer (JO) billets only. The intent is for flying CWOs not to fill JO billets that are normally considered career milestones for URL officers.

Thirty Sailors will be selected for the pilot program, commissioned as CWO2 prior to LDO/CWO indoctrination, and subsequently undergo flight training. Once winged, program CWOs incur an 8-year minimum service requirement for pilots (6 years for NFOs) and complete traditional sea/shore rotations between operational units and shore-based aviation production sources only (FRS, TRACOM, NSAWC, and Weapon schools).

The newly-winged aviators will receive Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) training and then report to the fleet.

Applications are due to Navy Personnel Command (PERS-432M) no later than March 31.

For more information, refer to NAVADMIN 031/06, available at www.npc.navy.mil or contact your Command Career Counselor.

For related news, visit the Navy Personnel Command Navy NewsStand page at www.news.navy.mil/local/npc/.

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Nice twist Tom, but it still doesn't prove your claim.