US Capitol evacuated due to NORDO AIRLINER in ADIZ

[JeffDG]

Traditionally the CINCNORAD has been a USAF person but at least twice has been a USN person. The Deputy CINCNORAD is always Canadian. The commander has to be approved by the Senate. What I do not know is who NORAD reports to. The USAF and RCAF seem to have a lot of the operational management responsibilities but the organization itself also seems to do things that would violate the posse comitatus act such as tracking drug flights. Perhaps they get around that as it is a flight that starts outside of the US. At any rate that is a discussion for another thread.

I would presume that Commander of NORAD would report to the Sec. Gates (and through him to the President) like any other officer of his station, and the deputy commander would report to Min. McKay (and through him to the Governor General) in Ottawa, although the deputy may report through the Chief of Defense Staff...not sure how the chain-of-command works up at that level up north...CDS may have a command role, unlike the Joint Chiefs who are advisory officers and not part of the chain-of-command.

 

[ScottM]

I would presume that Commander of NORAD would report to the Sec. Gates (and through him to the President) like any other officer of his station, and the deputy commander would report to Min. McKay (and through him to the Governor General) in Ottawa, although the deputy may report through the Chief of Defense Staff...not sure how the chain-of-command works up at that level up north...CDS may have a command role, unlike the Joint Chiefs who are advisory officers and not part of the chain-of-command.

Could be. It is not clear if the CINCNORAD was reporting up through USAF, another service, or the JCS to DoD.

The DoD org chart, http://odam.defense.gov/omp/pubs/GuideBook/Pdf/DoD.PDF , does not show them as a direct link to the SecDef

 

[ScottM]

Ok doing some more digging NORAD is part of the Unified Command NorthCom.

so CINCNORAD reports to CINCNorCom who reports to SecDef.

http://www.northcom.mil/About/index.html

This page also address the posse comitatus question I had

USNORTHCOM’s civil support mission includes domestic disaster relief operations that occur during fires, hurricanes, floods and earthquakes. Support also includes counter-drug operations and managing the consequences of a terrorist event employing a weapon of mass destruction. The command provides assistance to a Primary Agency when tasked by DOD. Per the Posse Comitatus Act, military forces can provide civil support, but cannot become directly involved in law enforcement.

In providing civil support, USNORTHCOM generally operates through established Joint Task Forces subordinate to the command. An emergency must exceed the capabilities of local, state and federal agencies before USNORTHCOM becomes involved. In most cases, support will be limited, localized and specific. When the scope of the disaster is reduced to the point that the Primary Agency can again assume full control and management without military assistance, USNORTHCOM will exit, leaving the on-scene experts to finish the job.

Back to our main thread topic.

 

[JeffDG]

Ok doing some more digging NORAD is part of the Unified Command NorthCom.

so CINCNORAD reports to CINCNorCom who reports to SecDef.

http://www.northcom.mil/About/index.html

This page also address the posse comitatus question I had



Back to our main thread topic.

In fact the same officer holds roles of Commander, NorthCOM and Commander, NORAD...note, CinC is no longer a title given to officers.

 

[CollinLeon]

New parlimentary procedure: "pilot filibuster"
It might cost you your certificate, but now you too can delay unwanted legislation.

Come up with a way to create a really cheap transponder that can run on a couple of D-cells and is light enough that it can be carried by a medium size balloon. That way when you needed to do a "pilot filibuster", just launch the balloon upwind from Congress, sit back, and watch the fun as the military jets try to match speed with it... <snicker>

Of course, if they catch you doing something like that, I would suspect that they're going to be really pi$$ed... They tend not to have much of a sense of humor...

 

[RotorAndWing]

Precisely my point. You're assuming, Ron, with no evidence that I've seen, that they were aware they had a problem from the begining and continued. I'd lay odds that they didn't know until well after the situation had progressed. I'm sure their OpSpecs say something along the lines of "Except in an emergency, the route of flight to be followed shall be that assigned by ATC..." and nowhere does it allow for circling on an airway because the freq is congested or no one is answering. You're hanging the crew for something they may very well have not been aware of.

 

[RotorAndWing]

While it's possible they could have gone 15 minutes without being aware of having lost comm, despite not getting any response on the new freq to which they switched, I really doubt it, especially for a crew on a route they've probably flown many times before. But we will see what the facts are as they come out.

I doubt you'll be apprised of all the facts.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

+2

 

[ScottM]

In fact the same officer holds roles of Commander, NorthCOM and Commander, NORAD...note, CinC is no longer a title given to officers.

Losing CinC is the lose of a cool title. I guess with a Navy guy in charge he would want to be called ComNorCom or some such sillyness.

While ComNorCom and ComNORAD are currently the same person it appears that does not always have to be the case, hence the reporting order is still ComNORAD, ComNorCom, SecDef.

 

[Jim Logajan]

directly on course to the highest value targets we have in this country

• Every single politician is replaceable.
• Every single politician is a servant of the people.
• There are many higher value targets in the U.S.
• Lost comm is inevitable and will happen again.
• Failure to perform proper lost comm procedures is inevitable and will happen again.
• No politician or government entity in their right mind wants to be fingered for any shoot-down of a civilian aircraft filled with innocent passengers (yielding angry survivors) because the politicos valued their power and behinds over the lives of the passengers.
• Given all of the above, and the specific details that have been reported, and the hubris of those in charge, more evacuations are inevitable and will happen again.

All in my humble opinion, of course!

 

[JeffDG]

Losing CinC is the lose of a cool title. I guess with a Navy guy in charge he would want to be called ComNorCom or some such sillyness.

While ComNorCom and ComNORAD are currently the same person it appears that does not always have to be the case, hence the reporting order is still ComNORAD, ComNorCom, SecDef.

Although, I'll bet that if something were to happen over Vancouver Island, ComNORAD would take his marching orders from the Minister of National Defense or the PM, conversely, if ComNORAD is gone (like on 9/11), the Deputy will take his orders for a US incident from SecDef and POTUS.

 

[steingar]

• Every single politician is replaceable.
• Every single politician is a servant of the people.
• There are many higher value targets in the U.S.
• Lost comm is inevitable and will happen again.
• Failure to perform proper lost comm procedures is inevitable and will happen again.
• No politician or government entity in their right mind wants to be fingered for any shoot-down of a civilian aircraft filled with innocent passengers (yielding angry survivors) because the politicos valued their power and behinds over the lives of the passengers.
• Given all of the above, and the specific details that have been reported, and the hubris of those in charge, more evacuations are inevitable and will happen again.

All in my humble opinion, of course!

+1. Nobody and nothing is more important in D.C. than anywhere else in the US, and quite a bit less important than many other places and things in the US. They deserve no special treatment whatsoever. The money spent "defending" D.C. is the second biggest waste of taxpayer dollars, right up there with the TSA.

 

[TMetzinger]

+1. Nobody and nothing is more important in D.C. than anywhere else in the US, and quite a bit less important than many other places and things in the US. They deserve no special treatment whatsoever. The money spent "defending" D.C. is the second biggest waste of taxpayer dollars, right up there with the TSA.

I disagree - if DC got destroyed you'd have a huge impact on our society - more so than many others. But in this case I'm talking about a nuclear-type attack that wipes out congress, pentagon, whitehouse, supreme court, and all the other HQs.

A single airplane might damage the white house or the congress. But even then, in the loss of a single agency or HQ of one branch of the government, I'd be confident that it would be pretty much business as usual in most parts of the country, just as it was on 9/12.

So I agree that much of the security focus is wasted, but I don't agree that DC is not a significant target and more valuable than most other major metro areas.

 

[steingar]

I disagree - if DC got destroyed you'd have a huge impact on our society - more so than many others. But in this case I'm talking about a nuclear-type attack that wipes out congress, pentagon, whitehouse, supreme court, and all the other HQs.

A single airplane might damage the white house or the congress. But even then, in the loss of a single agency or HQ of one branch of the government, I'd be confident that it would be pretty much business as usual in most parts of the country, just as it was on 9/12.

So I agree that much of the security focus is wasted, but I don't agree that DC is not a significant target and more valuable than most other major metro areas.

Sure, it would make a dandy target for a nuke, far better in most ways than Peoria. But we weren't talking about nukes. If someone has one of those, they won't need an airplane, and nothing can stop them.

 

[Clark1961]

Sure, it would make a dandy target for a nuke, far better in most ways than Peoria. But we weren't talking about nukes. If someone has one of those, they won't need an airplane, and nothing can stop them.

Ahh, but a nuke at 1200' (or some such elevation) is going to be much more effective than one a ground level.

Just something to keep in mind when one is planning their own private armageddon...(can we paint a big red X on the IRS's roof?)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ahh, but a nuke at 1200' (or some such elevation) is going to be much more effective than one a ground level.

Just something to keep in mind when one is planning their own private armageddon...(can we paint a big red X on the IRS's roof?)

What is it with you Dakota flyers and the IRS, anyway?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Considering that in this case, "stay[ing] on the filed route and go[ing] to the filed destination" puts them directly on course to the highest value targets we have in this country (and most likely the top targets of Al Qaida & Co.), I don't think that's an overreaction, but that's just my opinion. And if you were COMNORAD (or the NORAD duty general), with your career on the line, I'll bet you'd do the same.

If the concern was for protection of these "high value targets" DCA would be closed. As long as DCA is open, those targets are never more than 30 seconds away from a hit by a rogue airline pilot. And it is very clear that show is more important than reality.

(Note: One could leave DCA open to light, single engine, G.A. aircraft with minimal risk - but leaving it open to 9/11 sized aircraft flies in the face of common sense,)

 

[CollinLeon]

Just something to keep in mind when one is planning their own private armageddon...(can we paint a big red X on the IRS's roof?)

Careful... I made a comment once about the need for a planet-killer meteor to strike Washington and rid us of the IRS and the Congress-Critters who have created our convoluted tax code and I ended up getting visited by 2 US Treasury Agents. They didn't seem to realize that I did not have the ability to change the orbits of asteroids / meteors... Not too long after that, I received a letter from the IRS stating that I owed $130K for my 2004 taxes -- more than I even MADE in 2004... When they decide to be vindictive, they can be VERY vindictive...

 

[JeffDG]

I disagree - if DC got destroyed you'd have a huge impact on our society - more so than many others.

Which begs the question: Would such an impact necessarily be negative?

 

[sba55]

• Every single politician is replaceable.
• Every single politician is a servant of the people.
• There are many higher value targets in the U.S.
• Lost comm is inevitable and will happen again.
• Failure to perform proper lost comm procedures is inevitable and will happen again.
• No politician or government entity in their right mind wants to be fingered for any shoot-down of a civilian aircraft filled with innocent passengers (yielding angry survivors) because the politicos valued their power and behinds over the lives of the passengers.
• Given all of the above, and the specific details that have been reported, and the hubris of those in charge, more evacuations are inevitable and will happen again.

All in my humble opinion, of course!

What?!? Political common sense in a country that desperately needs some? Shocking!

Of course, you're right. Many people here still think it's the 17th century and that the rest of the world hasn't solved these problems in a much more reasonable manner.

 

[CollinLeon]

Which begs the question: Would such an impact necessarily be negative?

I remember some people saying after 9/11 that by destroying the WTC towers, it actually improved the NYC skyline since the WTC towers were so butt ugly. Compared to the architectural style of the Empire State Building and the Chrysler Building, I suspect that they might have been right. I've never been a fan of the glass and steel type of architecture -- just too boring in my opinion...