Upholstery work

ifly4fun said:
Are you suggesting he's breaking the welds on the seat? Am I not allowed to remove my own seat now?
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that really depends upon how the seat must be removed. many times the seat is a portion of the fuselage structure. The 170 association was required to gain approval for the pilot/owner to remove the rear seat simply because it was bolted in. The FAA issued a letter of authorization to do that and create a second W&B for the aircraft with the seat removed.
 
Johnny torres said:
How does it work at major aircraft places. Are the upholtery techs certified to work on the planes they dont own or operate? I appreciate everyones input. This is everything i want to know. This isnt something i think im just gonna jump into. Was just asking for information amd advice. Maybe im in over my head and should just stick to automotive.
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In the major shops/FBOs they work under the supervision of the FBOs director of maintenance. When an owner removes the the interior/seats, and has them re-newed their A&P usually does the return to service, WHY? because this is not Preventive maintenance.
 
Timbeck2 said:
You're not overhauling a magneto or installing a wing. It's freakin' upholstery and you're probably good at it. A lot of pilots could benefit from your talents. Don't get discouraged by people who speak in riddles.
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Because that is how the FARs are written. repair does not mean replace. and unlicensed upholstery shop can not work on your aircraft with out an A&P supervising the job.
call the local FSDO and ask if your friend with out an A&P can work on your aircraft doing preventive maintenance.
 
Well I guess I did it all wrong. I removed my seats and took them to the upholsterer. For some crazy reason I just didn't fly the plane until I got them back and installed them again. I remove the seats on every annual as well and there isn't one line in my logbook that the seats were removed and replaced.

That's all I'm going to say except to remind Johnny NOT to get discouraged. Learn the ins and outs for sure but don't let it stop you from doing what you want to do which is expand your business.

And for me it WAS preventive maintenance. It prevented me from falling into the right seat as the pilot seat I had was listing to starboard.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
everything can be replaced as preventative maintenance using approved materials. See (11) & (15).
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This is not true, Johnny is not an A&P. people other than owners/operators can not do preventative maintenance. plus this is not preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is repairs/adjustments/servicing, not replacement.
 
Tom-D said:
Here is the question.
Johnny is not the owner or the operator of the aircraft he will be working on, can he do preventive maintenance on it?
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If Jeff orders a set from Airtex, who isn't the owner or operator, can they supply the interior?

Why don't we just call this owner produced parts.. Jeff supplied the design specs for the interior and supervised their manufacture.
 
Johnny torres said:
How does it work at major aircraft places. Are the upholtery techs certified to work on the planes they dont own or operate? I appreciate everyones input. This is everything i want to know. This isnt something i think im just gonna jump into. Was just asking for information amd advice. Maybe im in over my head and should just stick to automotive.
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Please please please do not get discouraged. While Tom sometimes has good information, he's infamous around here for this sort of attack. Just...ignore him. This is a totally doable thing to move into aircraft. Many, many upholstery shops do it. The margins are better than auto, though there are a few extra hoops to jump through. There are rules and regulations, but they are quite manageable.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Well I guess I did it all wrong. I removed my seats and took them to the upholsterer. For some crazy reason I just didn't fly the plane until I got them back and installed them again. I remove the seats on every annual as well and there isn't one line in my logbook that the seats were removed and replaced.

That's all I'm going to say except to remind Johnny NOT to get discouraged. Learn the ins and outs for sure but don't let it stop you from doing what you want to do which is expand your business.
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Technically you are flying an unairworthy aircraft. unless you are an A&P. who returned the aircraft after maintenance.
 
Tom-D said:
that really depends upon how the seat must be removed. many times the seat is a portion of the fuselage structure. The 170 association was required to gain approval for the pilot/owner to remove the rear seat simply because it was bolted in. The FAA issued a letter of authorization to do that and create a second W&B for the aircraft with the seat removed.
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I could understand the W&B if you were to remove the seat and then fly it while its missing - but we're not suggesting that - the removal and reinstallation is all while the plane is grounded.
 
ifly4fun said:
If Jeff orders a set from Airtex, who isn't the owner or operator, can they supply the interior?

Why don't we just call this owner produced parts.. Jeff supplied the design specs for the interior and supervised their manufacture.
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Two questions . Airtex is a supplier of approved materials, they can supply that's all.
Owner produced parts are produced for maintenance, they require a return to service by an appropriated person.
 
Tom-D said:
This is not true, Johnny is not an A&P. people other than owners/operators can not do preventative maintenance. plus this is not preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is repairs/adjustments/servicing, not replacement.
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I can replace my oil, fuel, spark plugs, brake pad linings, tires, paint (except control services...), oil filters, strut o-rings. etc.
 
Tom-D said:
In the major shops/FBOs they work under the supervision of the FBOs director of maintenance. When an owner removes the the interior/seats, and has them re-newed their A&P usually does the return to service, WHY? because this is not Preventive maintenance.
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Tom-D said:
Technically you are flying an unairworthy aircraft. unless you are an A&P. who returned the aircraft after maintenance.
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So as long as there is a person in the shop that is A&P im good to go?????
 
Johnny torres said:
How does it work at major aircraft places. Are the upholtery techs certified to work on the planes they dont own or operate? I appreciate everyones input. This is everything i want to know. This isnt something i think im just gonna jump into. Was just asking for information amd advice. Maybe im in over my head and should just stick to automotive.
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Major shops require a return to service by their DOM.
 
Tom-D said:
Two questions . Airtex is a supplier of approved materials, they can supply that's all.
Owner produced parts are produced for maintenance, they require a return to service by an appropriated person.
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And as an owner operator I'm an appropriated person under the rule. No different than when I return my airplane to service after an oil change.
 
Tom-D said:
Technically you are flying an unairworthy aircraft. unless you are an A&P. who returned the aircraft after maintenance.
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Preventive maintenance of which my upholstery is as mentioned above, doesn't require an A&P's signature.
 
ifly4fun said:
And as an owner operator I'm an appropriated person under the rule. No different than when I return my airplane to service after an oil change.
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IF you repaired it. but when you replace it ?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Preventive maintenance of which my upholstery is as mentioned above, doesn't require an A&P's signature.
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Why not? the only people who can do preventive maintenance are the owner or operator.
 
How many readers believe the FAA thinks that "REPAIR and "REPLACE" are the same thing? Or that the FAA will allow anyone off the street to do preventive maintenance?
 
I own the plane. I told the upholsterer what I wanted he did what he was told, therefore I supervised the locally fabricated process and I'd swear that on a stack of bibles if some nose picker challenged me on it. Let's not get wrapped around the axle on this one. Johnny wants to upholster planes, he is willing to learn what he needs to do as evidenced by his posts here. He isn't trying to back door any regulation, quite the contrary, he wants to learn the regulations as convoluted as they are. Why pee in his cornflakes and make him feel stupid?
 
Tom-D said:
How many readers believe the FAA thinks that "REPAIR and "REPLACE" are the same thing? Or that the FAA will allow anyone off the street to do preventive maintenance?
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I believe that if the FAA authorizes me as an owner/operator to perform a repair on a particular system that that includes repairing up to and including replacement with appropriately certified replacement part. I know there was another thread I believe about bearings - Where I'm allowed to "service" bearings, if I chose to "service" them with replacements how does that not follow the intention of the rule? Same for spark plugs...
 
Jebus folks

It's upholstery, I'm surprised some folks even dare to take a leak without some government officials approval lol
 
James331 said:
Jebus folks

It's upholstery, I'm surprised some folks even dare to take a leak without some government officials approval lol
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Only if the toilet has a burn cert and log book entry returning it to service after the last dump
 
I was concerned about doing mine locally until I read the same information that you provided in the link and found that people like to throw around words like "authorized material" and "burn resistant material" but the truth is that there isn't an identified authorized or certified lab which decides what is and isn't burn resistant and/or authorized.

I wonder if my bayberry breeze air freshener is "authorized" or makes my plane un-airworthy because I installed it without A&P supervision.

Or how 'bout someone "off the street" waxing my plane thus "preventing" my paint from oxidizing?
 
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ifly4fun said:
I believe that if the FAA authorizes me as an owner/operator to perform a repair on a particular system that that includes repairing up to and including replacement with appropriately certified replacement part. I know there was another thread I believe about bearings - Where I'm allowed to "service" bearings, if I chose to "service" them with replacements how does that not follow the intention of the rule? Same for spark plugs...
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call FSDO see if they believe you can. your spark plug statement, read what the item says, it is explicit that you can replace, the upholstery item doesn't
(20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap clearance.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I was concerned about doing mine locally until I read the same information that you provided in the link and found that people like to throw around words like "authorized material" and "burn resistant material" but the truth is that there isn't an identified authorized or certified lab which decides what is and isn't burn resistant and/or authorized.
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We didn't even bring that into the conversation.
 
James331 said:
Jebus folks

It's upholstery, I'm surprised some folks even dare to take a leak without some government officials approval lol
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Some like to be legal.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I own the plane. I told the upholsterer what I wanted he did what he was told, therefore I supervised the locally fabricated process and I'd swear that on a stack of bibles if some nose picker challenged me on it. Let's not get wrapped around the axle on this one. Johnny wants to upholster planes, he is willing to learn what he needs to do as evidenced by his posts here. He isn't trying to back door any regulation, quite the contrary, he wants to learn the regulations as convoluted as they are. Why pee in his cornflakes and make him feel stupid?
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We all knew that.. that is why he should get supervision to return his maintenance to service.
 
bnt83 said:
depends how the airplane was certified and what materials you are using. New aircraft were certified to very specific crashworthiness regulations, a person unaware of them is likely to render the aircraft airworthy.
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SO, how would Johnny as a non-certified person know that with out guidance? How would he know any of the fire requirements of the various aircraft he may come into contact with?

Even withstanding item
(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.
He can't do preventive maintenance on any aircraft he does not own or, act as operator. that is reserved by the FAA for the pilot or owner.
I often use professional people all the time, but I'm the one signing it off just like I did it.
 
Tom-D said:
SO, how would Johnny as a non-certified person know that with out guidance? How would he know any of the fire requirements of the various aircraft he may come into contact with?

Even withstanding item
(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.
He can't do preventive maintenance on any aircraft he does not own or, act as operator. that is reserved by the FAA for the pilot or owner.
I often use professional people all the time, but I'm the one signing it off just like I did it.
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But i can do it as long as there is an A&P right??????
 
Johnny torres said:
But i can do it as long as there is an A&P right??????
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You'll want to make friends with an A&P at your airport. Many interior shops who aren't A&P's themselves get assistance like this. This thread has discussed some possible edge cases for basic interior work where there is some disagreement to paperwork requirements. Truth is, customers will have varying levels of their own concerns. It's nice to say, "we have burn cents for all materials and if you like, the A&P next door will sign your log book." A good shop will also take on more serious work as part of a project when necessary and then paperwork is definitely required. For example, what if you pull out the headliner and there's serious corrosion on the aluminum skins? Your A&P can tag team and do the work at the same time. Otherwise, you leave it to your customer to figure out how to get it fixed while the interior is in pieces.
 
Johnny torres said:
But i can do it as long as there is an A&P right??????
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Yes. And you can do it without, too. There is no law that prevents you from doing upholstery on a plane whatsoever.

There is a little bit of disagreement on whether the pilot is allowed to return the plane to service after such work or if it takes an A&P to sign off.

This only matters to you if you want to sign it off at your shop. The plane's owner will almost certainly have an A&P available to sign off the work if they are so inclined.

In my last case, the seat fabric was replaced during a 100-hour. I removed the seats. The A&P happened to put them back in, so he did the entry.

This is all easy stuff. Don't sweat any of it.
 
arnoha said:
Yes. And you can do it without, too. There is no law that prevents you from doing upholstery on a plane whatsoever.

There is a little bit of disagreement on whether the pilot is allowed to return the plane to service after such work or if it takes an A&P to sign off.

This only matters to you if you want to sign it off at your shop. The plane's owner will almost certainly have an A&P available to sign off the work if they are so inclined.

In my last case, the seat fabric was replaced during a 100-hour. I removed the seats. The A&P happened to put them back in, so he did the entry.

This is all easy stuff. Don't sweat any of it.
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Cool. Thanks. Thats what i needed to know. I would want to be legal in every way possible. Just seems like a good idea to be able to fly a plane in and be able to park it at a hanger/upholstery shop with a certified A&P in the shop would be a good idea? I dont know. And again this is just a thought and wanted to get some knowledge before jumping into something i dont know about.
 
There was an upholstery shop on the field that I used to be at. They had an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic on staff. If they needed an IA (Inspection Authorization) they called one of a few guys they knew to sign off on the alteration.

I did the interior on my old Cessna. I removed the seats and took them to a local auto upholstery shop where I picked from a list of burn certified materials (with the burn certificate provided). Depending on the airplane, the "seat installation" thing is a bit of a gray area as to whether an owner is allowed to do it. So after I installed the seats I had my A&P signoff on the install. Had he not been comfortable with my ability, I would have just paid him to remove/reinstall them.

Because it sounds like you're not going to be removing, installing and altering the structure of the seat frames, I don't think you need to worry about it.

But it wouldn't be a bad idea to become friends with an A&P or two in your area in case something comes up. That way if you're ever uncertain about something, you can ask them for guidance.
 
Interiors are really three main things, assuming we are just reupholstering, gluing, painting stuff, repairing plastics (plastics in airplanes are bad and it is time consuming to repair and about as time consuming to replace) https://www.planeplastics.com/

#1 Placards - They must be there, if missing they must be replaced. An A&P should know which references to research to ensure they are there. Could be simple stickers or silkscreen painted on.

#2 Flammability - Applies to all in some way. The newer the aircraft, the more specific it is and more substantiation is expected. Typically its not much different than what automotive manufacturers do nowadays. There are companies that offer services to burn test and certify materials. Some of them put up free educational-type reading materials to help those interested in services. They are usually very helpful in determining what you need.

#3 Crashworthiness - This applies to aircraft certified (not necessarily built) about 1988 or later. These seats were tested with crash test dummies and loads on the spine were measured to meet specific regulation. This means that the seat cushions are a specific design and any new cushion must meet those requirements. To get around designing them yourself and getting those approved you should be able to buy FAA approved cushions and then you can sew and install dress cover using materials that are burn tested.

If a guy pulls up in 1948 Luscombe 8A, 1968 Cessna, 1977 Piper, there is a pretty good chance that only the very basic flammability (mentioned in previous posts) and no specific crashworthiness regulation apply.

If you are certain you want to expand into aircraft, maybe you can offer service through an existing aircraft shop nearby. That would get you on the job and you can learn & go from there. More and more large shops are leasing/renting out spaces in their buildings to vendors that do things that the big shop doesn't want to do. (Example: jet windshields, at $20k a pop you can't afford to mess them up so they are almost always done by a windows dealer/vendor which is all they do)

Tip: One thing I absolutely hate about interior jobs is that it sure seems like some folks working on them have a tendency to drill new holes and add screws where they feel like it, those people should not be working on airplanes at all.

Weight is a very simple issue yet it gets ignored a lot, especially by owners doing their own interiors.
 
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