Upgrading to a faster plane

[Everskyward]

Have the best of both worlds and hire your air limo. Takeoff to landing, about the same time as an airliner, but you can generally drive your car up to the airplane, or at least have your baggage loaded for you; order whatever catering or drink you desire; use a real lav with doors and a sink; come up and talk to the pilots about, whatever; even get them to fly a hundred miles out of the way to look at your favorite geologic formation, as long a you are paying for it...

 

[Ted]

Have the best of both worlds and hire your air limo. Takeoff to landing, about the same time as an airliner, but you can generally drive your car up to the airplane, or at least have your baggage loaded for you; order whatever catering or drink you desire; use a real lav with doors and a sink; come up and talk to the pilots about, whatever; even get them to fly a hundred miles out of the way to look at your favorite geologic formation, as long a you are paying for it...

You should be in marketing! But leave out that paying for it part. Don't want people to see the bill until it's too late.

 

[Everskyward]

Don't want people to see the bill until it's too late.

That doesn't work too well. You need people to pay up front!!

 

[Ted]

That doesn't work too well. You need people to pay up front!!

Just swipe their AmEx.

 

[wabower]

And the crux of the problem, especially when the actual use falls far short of the idealized number in the projections. Very few planes are sold because "well, I'm just flying it too much and can't really justify having it around any longer."

You should be in marketing! But leave out that paying for it part. Don't want people to see the bill until it's too late.

 

[Everskyward]

Just swipe their AmEx.

And make sure the payment is authorized!

 

[rbridges]

hey, has anyone heard from the OP? I think the thread has gone off on a tangent.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

And you're forgetting which one of us was folding his tent and trying to sell his airplane.

I'd rather drive 18/19 hrs than schlep around airports, taxis and such for 15/17 hrs including arriving at the airport at 5am...

That is the actual time difference from Wichita to PSP via LA when there are no direct flights.

Commercially I have been stranded in Denver for break down; stranded in Minneapolis because they would cancel the smaller aircraft leaving to let room for the larger aircraft to get out when they were working on the 2nd runway. They knew this before I left NYC but they let me fly into Minneapolis anyway...last time I flew that airline. I got stranded in Atlanta twice both times for Thunderstorms which backed up the whole system to the point that there were no more seats available to Miami from Atlanta. They were so ****ed up that you could't get a hotel as they stranded 10,000's of us and I was on the back end of that crap so all hotels were booked..slept in a food court booth at the airport. At 50+ that does not feel good. 2nd time same exact thing happens exactly the same way in Atlanta apparently it is not an uncommon event.

I drive, I fly my plane, or I stay home. I guess I am weird I actually like driving and prefer it to being faced down by TSA, rude flight attendants unhappy passengers, crowded terminals and an all around experience reminest of steerage treatment on the Nina, Pinta or Santa Maria as a slave. It is all made worse by seats too tight and my butt being too big, none the less it is not a realistic option for me.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

There is no way any commercial seat I have ever flown in is more comfortable than my Cherokee let alone my Comanche..... Maybe If I were 20 and under 200lbs again???? But then I still have to put up with the butt heads, body oder, delays, flying someones elses schedule.

That is certainly relative.....while we understand that you have become old and fussy, most of us that fly GA and our families have discovered that we can have our own drink and snack service, carry comparable amounts of luggage (without having to worry about an over 50lb bag fee), and still make potty breaks (I can fly ORF to CHA with a potty stop for the girls and still be faster door to door than Delta). And I haven't seen too many people raving about how comfortable airline seats were unless you are in First/Business class.

It isn't for everyone....but the world of GA isn't as ghetto and gloomy as you like to make it out to be.

 

[Henning]

The only airline seats more comfortable than the 310 are the ones up front on oceanic flights that lay down flat.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

hey, has anyone heard from the OP? I think the thread has gone off on a tangent.

This is the tangent he needs to see if he really wants a faster plane for travel or just keep the slow, hamburger hop plane.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Why the myopic fixation about door-to-door time difference?

I find this statement rather humorous coming from the guy who in another thread stated that door to door was the be all and end all measurement for determining true trip time.

 

[wabower]

A couple years ago I was plssed (more than normal) at American so decided to drive to PSP. Two days each way, 21 hours total, not fun. I'm not a fan of the airlines either, but almost anywhere is non-stop from here, most with a number of options each day and all on FF miles. For my average 3 legs per year, it's bearable. I've flown the little planes to PSP a couple of times as well, but no mas. Being there for a month just doesn't work.

OTOH, a planned 3k/nm round-robin through the southeast next month sounds like fun and looking forward to it. Might actually need to spend some time figuring out everything Foreflight does, then finding out the closest airport to Augusta that I can use for a couple of nights.

I'd rather drive 18/19 hrs than schlep around airports, taxis and such for 15/17 hrs including arriving at the airport at 5am...

That is the actual time difference from Wichita to PSP via LA when there are no direct flights.

Commercially I have been stranded in Denver for break down; stranded in Minneapolis because they would cancel the smaller aircraft leaving to let room for the larger aircraft to get out when they were working on the 2nd runway. They knew this before I left NYC but they let me fly into Minneapolis anyway...last time I flew that airline. I got stranded in Atlanta twice both times for Thunderstorms which backed up the whole system to the point that there were no more seats available to Miami from Atlanta. They were so ****ed up that you could't get a hotel as they stranded 10,000's of us and I was on the back end of that crap so all hotels were booked..slept in a food court booth at the airport. At 50+ that does not feel good. 2nd time same exact thing happens exactly the same way in Atlanta apparently it is not an uncommon event.

I drive, I fly my plane, or I stay home. I guess I am weird I actually like driving and prefer it to being faced down by TSA, rude flight attendants unhappy passengers, crowded terminals and an all around experience reminest of steerage treatment on the Nina, Pinta or Santa Maria as a slave. It is all made worse by seats too tight and my butt being too big, none the less it is not a realistic option for me.

 

[EdFred]

And you're forgetting which one of us was folding his tent and trying to sell his airplane.

Which had 0 to do with traveling or not traveling. You may want to know why I had it for sale before opening your yap.

 

[wabower]

I read what you said at the time you posted the ad. If it's different, maybe I didn't see the latest memo.

Which had 0 to do with traveling or not traveling. You may want to know why I had it for sale before opening your yap.

 

[poadeleted21]

I find this statement rather humorous coming from the guy who in another thread stated that door to door was the be all and end all measurement for determining true trip time.

You assume he wanted an honest answer to his question and that his intent wasn't to

 

[JHW]

wayne is spot on. If jetblue started a daily nonstop peoria-wichita I'd unload the beechcraft in a heartbeat. As it is though, I have trips to make, only weekends to get them done, and no other way to get there and back in the allotted time.

 

[Ted]

And the crux of the problem, especially when the actual use falls far short of the idealized number in the projections. Very few planes are sold because "well, I'm just flying it too much and can't really justify having it around any longer."

True, but they are sold because "I'm flying it too much and need something better/faster/stronger."

A couple years ago I was plssed (more than normal) at American so decided to drive to PSP. Two days each way, 21 hours total, not fun. I'm not a fan of the airlines either, but almost anywhere is non-stop from here, most with a number of options each day and all on FF miles. For my average 3 legs per year, it's bearable. I've flown the little planes to PSP a couple of times as well, but no mas. Being there for a month just doesn't work.

The >1 week trips do become more difficult since you have to coordinate storage, etc. Still doable, though, especially if you shop around. Back a few years ago when Leaky Gray Engines had me living out of the Holiday Inn for 4 months solid (it wasn't an Express, so I didn't get any smarter), I talked with the folks at Wiggins Airways at KMHT. Although not the closest airport to my hotel, I'd flown in there for dog trips semi-regularly and knew they had great customer service. They gave an outright reasonable price on tie-down (which wasn't a special deal just for me) on a month-to-month basis. They also didn't care if I swapped the Aztec for the 310, which I did semi-regularly as the trips dictated. In asking them about it, they said this was a fairly common practice for them.

We went back up for a long weekend last month on our way home from Newfoundland. Rental car ready when we landed, they kept it outside until the night before leaving and then put it in the hangar since there was a bunch of snow/ice/etc.

OTOH, a planned 3k/nm round-robin through the southeast next month sounds like fun and looking forward to it. Might actually need to spend some time figuring out everything Foreflight does, then finding out the closest airport to Augusta that I can use for a couple of nights.

A quick check of the map says that our home in Cincinnati doesn't add much distance. I'm not sure if we're going to make that same gathering or not (we'll see as it gets a bit closer), but regardless, if you feel like hitting D-> is too simple, you're welcome to stop by here for the day/night/however long on your way one direction or the other.

 

[Mike5250]

F model doesn't answer the useful load issue but is in the price range. It only sacrifices 10 knots or so.

What is the F model useful load, around 950?

With 10 gal/hr vs 15 gal/hr you are burning about 100lbs less for a 3 hr flight. The mooney has 60 gal tanks, I forget what the tabs measure.

 

[dell30rb]

And comfort, noise level, ability to have a soft drink while onboard with the knowledge you can pee if necessary, packing whatever you want, taking your golf clubs, etc. Other than that, its about the same.

How about a week on a bareboat charter and the airlines lost your bag with your gear? Trade show and the bag with your materials/samples is lost?

At least if you can fit it in your plane, you know it will get there.

 

[dell30rb]

What is the F model useful load, around 950?

With 10 gal/hr vs 15 gal/hr you are burning about 100lbs less for a 3 hr flight. The mooney has 60 gal tanks, I forget what the tabs measure.

Tabs on our j's are 50gal topped off 64gal.

50 is plenty when you can do 155 kts on under 10gph

 

[wabower]

That's why I always carried everything in the plane. Our inner circle meeting was held at Dorado Beach, PR. My golf clubs were sent to Portland, OR.

I'm trying to remember what I took on bareboat trips that wouldn't fit in a gym bag or couldn't buy in BVI. What else besides toothbrush, T-shirts, shorts, sunscreen, hat, charts, GPS?

How about a week on a bareboat charter and the airlines lost your bag with your gear? Trade show and the bag with your materials/samples is lost?

At least if you can fit it in your plane, you know it will get there.

 

[cirrusmx]

I did New Braunfels to Prescott one day, and New Braunfels to Lakeland one day (with 20 knot headwinds to boot) I just like flying shorter legs. If I had someone to fly with me and keep me from going to sleep it'd be different, but I don't. The 172 wasn't very comfortable but sitting in the Mooney is just so comfortable.....and the engine droning along with some nice music going in the back.........*snorrrrrre* now maybe a weather system or something that actually involves doing pilot stuff would be different, but sucking oxygen at 16k with the autopilot on is pretty boring.

OR fly with someone thats a pilot and go to sleep.

 

[Ted]

Another pilot helps snoozing issues, someone to talk to.

I've noticed some people can fall asleep in a vehicle they're controlling, others can't. I've driven for 40 hours including through a tornado area towing a 28' enclosed trialer and, despite being caffeinated and exhausted, didn't come close to falling asleep.

I have other friends who've fallen asleep several times and wrecked vehicles as a result.

 

[JHW]

I have other friends who've fallen asleep several times and wrecked vehicles as a result.

I have a strong suspician I could fall asleep in both a Beech B200 and an F250. Fortunately the highway medians in Oklahoma are mostly wide and flat.

 

[cirrusmx]

Another pilot helps snoozing issues, someone to talk to.

I've noticed some people can fall asleep in a vehicle they're controlling, others can't. I've driven for 40 hours including through a tornado area towing a 28' enclosed trialer and, despite being caffeinated and exhausted, didn't come close to falling asleep.

I have other friends who've fallen asleep several times and wrecked vehicles as a result.

Thats outright wrong and dangerous.

 

[Ted]

I have a strong suspician I could fall asleep in both a Beech B200 and an F250. Fortunately the highway medians in Oklahoma are mostly wide and flat.

In New York said friends tended to fall asleep on a straight highway and crash into a 25 mph turn. Actually I had 2 friends on 3 occasions fall asleep and crash on that same turn.

Thats outright wrong and dangerous.

I list three things there. Are all of them outright wrong and dangerous, or just one?

 

[tmyers]

I have to be careful when driving at certain times of the day because I can easily nod off. Some munchies and plenty of water help with that. To date I have never nodded of in an airplane I was piloting. Maybe I still enjoy flying so much I just don't want to miss any of it. Knocking on some solid wooded part of my head, it has never been an issue.

 

[wabower]

Harry was right about a man knowing his limitations. I've never been able to reliably pull all-nighters and have known it since college. At 0300, Dandy Don was right. The party's over.

I could make it over the pond, but looking for Ireland into a rising sun was painful.

 

[bcconsult21]

Who can tell me about the 1985 Lancair kit...safety? I may have my very clean Mooney M20C for sale for $48,000 if I buy this Lancair but want to know more about what I'm getting. The kit was completed in 1995, and is very well done, and only has 385 hours on airframe and powerplant. Is it similar to the Mooney or is it a uncontrollable plane?

 

[Henning]

Who can tell me about the 1985 Lancair kit...safety? I may have my very clean Mooney M20C for sale for $48,000 if I buy this Lancair but want to know more about what I'm getting. The kit was completed in 1995, and is very well done, and only has 385 hours on airframe and powerplant. Is it similar to the Mooney or is it a uncontrollable plane?

Which model, and which tail? In general it's a safe design, but it's slick, so as with the Mooney, energy management is at a paramount. It's far from uncontrollable, but those with the larger MkII tail have a little more forgiveness and authority down at the bottom of the envelope.

 

[bluerooster]

I think were I the OP I would think seriously about keeping the 235.
While it's not blazing fast, it's a capable cross country airplane, with a decent useful load and reasonably long legs.

If he wants to go much faster, and carry the same load, and have long legs as well, $60k will have a hard time finding one. And operating expense will increase considerably.

 

[FORANE]

Who can tell me about the 1985 Lancair kit...safety? I may have my very clean Mooney M20C for sale for $48,000 if I buy this Lancair but want to know more about what I'm getting. The kit was completed in 1995, and is very well done, and only has 385 hours on airframe and powerplant. Is it similar to the Mooney or is it a uncontrollable plane?

Brian

I have a Lancair 235/320.

Henning asked if the one you were looking at has the larger tail. While I have never flown the larger tail version, I can say my small tail lacks the elevator authority to hold the nose off once the mains touch. This means you need to fly it on to the runway with minimal descent rate.

It is not uncontrollable. I do feel rusty if I go for over a month between flying it though and I have 800 hours in mine. It is safe with competent transition training. However, if the motor quits, the plane will be much less forgiving than most small craft though as it likes long runways on a good day (the lancair instructor taught me to cross numbers at 90 kts).

If you do not mind a tight cabin with small useful load, it rewards you for those compromises with 180-200 kts at 6.5-8 gph cruise at altitude, and very responsive handling. I took a friend for a ride in mine who has single, multi, commercial, cfi, instrument, seaplane, 1500 hours, etc and upon takeoff as we cleared the trees at the end of the runway he exclaimed "Man, this is like a racecar for one!" His comment describes this plane.
Best go find one and get a ride.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

Brian

I have a Lancair 235/320.

Henning asked if the one you were looking at has the larger tail. While I have never flown the larger tail version, I can say my small tail lacks the elevator authority to hold the nose off once the mains touch. This means you need to fly it on to the runway with minimal descent rate.

It is not uncontrollable. I do feel rusty if I go for over a month between flying it though and I have 800 hours in mine. It is safe with competent transition training. However, if the motor quits, the plane will be much less forgiving than most small craft though as it likes long runways on a good day (the lancair instructor taught me to cross numbers at 90 kts).

If you do not mind a tight cabin with small useful load, it rewards you for those compromises with 180-200 kts at 6.5-8 gph cruise at altitude, and very responsive handling. I took a friend for a ride in mine who has single, multi, commercial, cfi, instrument, seaplane, 1500 hours, etc and upon takeoff as we cleared the trees at the end of the runway he exclaimed "Man, this is like a racecar for one!" His comment describes this plane.
Best go find one and get a ride.

Been eyeing the 235 for a while. I can't think of a more economical way to fly cross country. However I'm a little nervous about it because I only have 150 hours. I will probably buy an RV-6a next year and give up a little speed and looks for more forgiving handling.


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[FORANE]

Been eyeing the 235 for a while. I can't think of a more economical way to fly cross country. However I'm a little nervous about it because I only have 150 hours. I will probably buy an RV-6a next year and give up a little speed and looks for more forgiving handling.


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I had 100 hours when I bought mine. Transition training is a must. Even with transition training it took a long time to get comfortable with it. RV-6A is a good compromise and has better support network. I also own an RV-9A.

 

[Captain]

I'd recommend a Piaggio Avanti II. Lots to pick up cheap these days. Single pilot, 1500 LB useful load, 400Kts, FL410, 80 gal burn in cruise (approx at alt with 340'ish TAS) seats 10 with inclosed lav, 5'10" cabin, quiet too.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

I had 100 hours when I bought mine. Transition training is a must. Even with transition training it took a long time to get comfortable with it. RV-6A is a good compromise and has better support network. I also own an RV-9A.

How much transition training did you get? 10hrs?
How hard was it to find an A&P to do the inspections?
Did you have any trouble getting insurance when you first bought it?
Do you ever fly IFR in it?


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[FORANE]

How much transition training did you get? 10hrs?
How hard was it to find an A&P to do the inspections?
Did you have any trouble getting insurance when you first bought it?
Do you ever fly IFR in it?


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10 hour transition training with one of the few lancair certified instructors over the course of 1 weekend.
Easy to find A&P. Found one at my home field, but do not use him anymore as he was doing things I did not want done, my plane was tied up for too long and I was paying more than I wanted to pay. Now I fly to a nearby field about a 20 minute ride away.
Insurance? They wanted the 10 hour transition training which I had. They wanted the lancair certified ground school which took place twice a year (I believe) which I did not have.
I fly it IFR routinely.

 

[Tmpendergrass]

I'd recommend a Piaggio Avanti II. Lots to pick up cheap these days. Single pilot, 1500 LB useful load, 400Kts, FL410, 80 gal burn in cruise (approx at alt with 340'ish TAS) seats 10 with inclosed lav, 5'10" cabin, quiet too.

If I ever end up with an extra $1.5mil, that is what I'm buying. For the life of me I can't figure out why there aren't more of these out there.


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[Tmpendergrass]

10 hour transition training with one of the few lancair certified instructors over the course of 1 weekend.
Easy to find A&P. Found one at my home field, but do not use him anymore as he was doing things I did not want done, my plane was tied up for too long and I was paying more than I wanted to pay. Now I fly to a nearby field about a 20 minute ride away.
Insurance? They wanted the 10 hour transition training which I had. They wanted the lancair certified ground school which took place twice a year (I believe) which I did not have.
I fly it IFR routinely.

Thanks Forane,
Now I just need to get a ride in a 235 for myself. I've seen quite a few go across trade a plane for under $40k so hopefully I can buy a bird soon


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