Upgrading from a six-seater...

@AA5Bman You're missing the biggest part of the equation here. What is your budget?

If you have enough money for the pressurized twins/turbines you're talking about, just remove some of the bags of money you have from the 205 and it'll take more other stuff. ;)

But you're at the point where, absent a huge increase in your flying budget, your cheapest option is a pilot certificate for your wife, a second 205, and a vasectomy.
 
That Aztec is mighty appealing.. Can I put a Bonanza sticker on it to make myself feel better?
 
Echo419 said:
My kids are 6 and 3. We need very little gear beyond clothes now. I'm not a pilot yet so I can only talk about car trips, but most of our stuff is toys to keep them entertained on the road. However it sounds like you go camping, and I can't speak to that in terms of what you need with bigger kids.
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Interesting. I kind of figure we’re at peak gear. You’re past pack-and-plays, diaper bags, baby carrier backpacks, strollers, etc. The camping gear itself isn’t so bad - maybe two sleeping bags and a larger or second backpacking tent is the only real gear increase and that’s not too bad.
 
tspear said:
Another option, and as a pilot, this is one you should like. Fly the family to the destination with only a small carry on bag. Drop them off, fly home and pack in all the related crap. (It would still be cheaper to ship it, but this is more fun).
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Hah - that would have been an 8 hour flying day on this last trip... both ways. Our plane is so slow that it would only beat driving by a couple hours!
 
Cervieres said:
The prices of older Piper Meridians are coming down a little, especially the ones that are still Meggit equipped. That would get check most of your boxes, but as you pointed out, gains in useful load and overall space are relatively small. Operating costs would be lower than an ancient twin.
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I don't know about that. An unpressurized, normally aspirated light twin, especially non-FIKI, is almost certainly cheaper to operate than an old Meridian.

There's nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane... And that's the difficulty @AA5Bman is going to have here. You can buy older airplanes that have the kind of space and capability he's looking for fairly cheap in the grand scheme of things, but they'll eat your lunch if you're not lucky. You need to be able to write a $100,000 check now and then for something that doesn't add any value to the plane upon sale - It merely allows you to actually sell the plane because it still works.

OR, if you avoid the older airplanes (generally, piston twins with turbo, pressurization, etc), you get into newer turbines, where you have both a huge price tag up front AND huge operating costs. I fly one of the most efficient of these airplanes as part of my job, and we burn 90+ gph on takeoff and 52gph minimum at cruise... And it still doesn't have the kind of room that @AA5Bman is looking for.

There are possibilities. Dave S had a King Air C90 for a while. He sold it maybe a year or so ago and the asking price was $375K. He said that he could get a "new" used engine if he needed one for about $50-60K thanks mostly to the people doing Blackhawk conversions. There's still the possibility of unplanned maintenance requiring a $100K+ check, but somewhat less likely when the engine is taken out of the equation. The planned maintenance is going to be expensive - A set of brakes is $5K, a battery is $5K, etc but it'll be roomy, comfortable, and faster than a 205. Still, it's going to be an order of magnitude more expensive than the 205.
 
flyingcheesehead said:

@AA5Bman your cheapest option is a ... vasectomy.
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AA5Bman said:
Check
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Well ... after our second child was born my wife was asking the doc about a tubal ligation (tubes tied). He told her she was kind of young for that but she said she was sure that's what she wanted as she wasn't having anymore children.

He then suggested that there were other options at which point she looked at me and said, "yeah! If you get snipped I can't get pregnant." I looked at her and said, "honey ... that's not true."

Yep ... that's when the fight started ... ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You need to be able to write a $100,000 check now and then for something that doesn't add any value to the plane upon sale - It merely allows you to actually sell the plane because it still works.
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This strikes me as a little bit much, but I'm also out of my league here. Take an Aztec or a Malibu for example. What $100,000 item MX expense could you face on one of those that's not replacing an engine (which adds value). Sure, you could blow a turbo and have to spend $20k which sucks, but $100k? Again, I am currently operating beyond my knowledge so maybe you're right.
 
AA5Bman said:
This strikes me as a little bit much, but I'm also out of my league here. Take an Aztec or a Malibu for example. What $100,000 item MX expense could you face on one of those that's not replacing an engine (which adds value). Sure, you could blow a turbo and have to spend $20k which sucks, but $100k? Again, I am currently operating beyond my knowledge so maybe you're right.
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Well, if you somehow shelled two engines that weren't low-time it wouldn't add much value when replacing them. However, if you shelled engines at TBO, the value does go up.
 
AA5Bman said:
This strikes me as a little bit much, but I'm also out of my league here. Take an Aztec or a Malibu for example. What $100,000 item MX expense could you face on one of those that's not replacing an engine (which adds value). Sure, you could blow a turbo and have to spend $20k which sucks, but $100k? Again, I am currently operating beyond my knowledge so maybe you're right.
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I'm not talking Aztec here. Aztec is usually normally aspirated, is unpressurized, may or may not have de-ice, etc... All of those systems cost money to keep up, and the parts are expensive (because, you know, rich airplane owners...).

But on a pressurized airplane... Well, a heated windscreen panel on a pressurized airplane will run upwards of $50K. Take a bird right in the middle and crack two of 'em, and you have a six-figure bird strike. And that's just one example.

We do have a Malibu maintenance expert that at least used to be on this board, maybe he'll chime in.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But on a pressurized airplane... Well, a heated windscreen panel on a pressurized airplane will run upwards of $50K. Take a bird right in the middle and crack two of 'em, and you have a six-figure bird strike. And that's just one example.
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Okay fair enough, I brought up the pressurization thing kind of on a lark and while it might be reasonable to explore at the level of a Malibu, it's not, for me, realistic at the level of a 3/400-series Cessna. But then again, even in this example, this would be an insurance claim.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Well, if you somehow shelled two engines that weren't low-time it wouldn't add much value when replacing them. However, if you shelled engines at TBO, the value does go up.
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Right, you'd either be in an insurance scenario (like a gear up), or one seriously unlucky bastard.
 
AA5Bman said:
How much rear baggage does the Lance have? I know there is the nose locker which is a plus, but what is behind that last seat?
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Well, since I just so happen to be in the hangar
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We've got two Amazon basics 26" bags and they fit perfect. Pretty sure it'd take a third. The front baggage is surprisingly roomy too, it took a stroller and carseat that we didn't think we would be able to bring.

I agree with you though that the lance is too much of a lateral move. Faster for sure, but no more payload (probably less) and not that much more space. I've made up my mind to stick to paved strips as the nose gear just doesn't look robust enough for grass. Not exactly a camping machine.

The trick for us is that my wife has a perverse love of doing laundry, so we each take just a few outfits and make sure there's a washer and dryer. Cribs can be rented or even bought cheap and donated. Food likewise gets bought locally. But again that's all fine for a rented condo, notsomuch for camping. Honestly it sounds like you bought the right airplane short of doubling your opex.
 
OP - Sack-up and buy a 310 (maybe I'm a little biased). You won't regret it. If it's still not enough, move to a 414 and go from there.
 
steingar said:
I'd teach my spouse and spawn the art of packing lightly.
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GaryM said:
This is the way...
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...to certain death. And she will plead justifiable homicide and get away with it; you know that. :p

schmookeeg said:
I'm working my way there in mine. Only at 1,935 at the moment. :D
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But it doesn't compare with an Aztec for interior space...
AA5Bman said:
...and comfort are premiums.
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AA5Bman said:
@tspear This is kind of the conclusion I had come to - to really get it done you’re going to increase costs by an order of magnitude, going to a 3/400-series Cessna or a SETP or similar.

Based on these responses, it seems that the Aztec is worth a thought, though, and while it’s a big jump in costs, it’s probably a doubling, not an adding of digits...
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I live on the immediate east side of the Rockies. I researched every piston twin before deciding to go looking for an Aztec (the usual engineer's approach, big spreadsheet with lots of numbers :eek:). Prior to that I owned 4 different Cherokee derivatives, including an Arrow and a Dakota. It took nearly 11 months to find the right Aztec, one that wasn't clapped out and beat to death doing charter/freight its whole life. The patience paid off.

Some of the alternates that I considered, such as the Baron, were rejected as my 6'4" x 240lb physique couldn't fit comfortably in the airplane (If I was a bit smaller I'd own a C, D or E55 short body Baron right now).

The Aztec is more expensive to fly than the singles, but all-in it is not a "double". The fuel is certainly a double over the singles, and consumables such as spark plugs/oil/filters for the engines are doubled up, but there's only one airframe - one set of retractable gear, one set of avionics and gyros (in other words, you only need to spend those $45 AMUs on the full glass panel upgrade treatment once, just like a single ;)), and so forth.

My per hour cost went up about 60% over the Arrow. But part of that is the hours flown every year went up too. I fly my twin a LOT more than the singles because it is so much more capable than any of my singles. Conditions that would leave the singles parked in the hangar while I flew commercial are no big deal for the Aztec (among other things I just don't do single engine IFR in IMC over the mountains, period).
 
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@GRG55 are you FIKI? (I assume)?
 
AA5Bman said:
@GRG55 are you FIKI? (I assume)?
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My Aztec is equipped with de-ice including hot props, electric windshield plate and boots. The de-ice package on the Aztec is extensive and robust; remember this airplane was primarily marketed to commercial/charter operators during the 1960s/70s and the way it's built and fitted out reflects that. However, Piper never bothered to secure FIKI certification for the Aztec. By the time the FAA brought in the FIKI rules (long after the Aztec, including the de-ice package option, was introduced to the market) Piper's attention was on the Cherokee derived Seneca, and that is their piston twin with official FIKI certification.

@Kristin, who currently owns and flies a Twin Comanche, is one of our members very knowledgeable about the nuances of the FIKI rules. Kristin and @Ted, both of whom have a lot of Aztec time, will confirm it's arguably the best piston twin in ice. Because of where I live that was one of the top of my short list reasons I chose an Aztec.
 
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The Aztec is, by far, the best piston twin I’ve flown in ice. And I’ve flown a good number of piston twins in more ice than you can shake a stick at.

Once landed with 2” of ice on the wings, damn thing didn’t notice. When the static wicks had ice built up on them the size of softballs, the plane did start to fly poorly...
 
aterry1067 said:
Aerostar?


1981 AEROSTAR 602P Multi Engine Piston for sale - 2388680 (trade-a-plane.com)
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It has the seats, and likely UL for a while, plus the option to upgrade the engines and get the gross weight increase. With the larger engines, gross weight increase, full fuel including optional aux tank you should be able to carry about 1200lbs of people and cargo.

The issue at least short term is luggage space. Pack and play plus other stuff is really bulky.

There is a good A* thread over on BeechTalk and aerostar-forum.com was pretty good when I was a member. I have not been on there in a few years.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
It seems like your emergency gear is a little more than emergency gear, and more like near to luxury gear. That should be easily be stripped down in weight.
 
EdFred said:
It seems like your emergency gear is a little more than emergency gear, and more like near to luxury gear. That should be easily be stripped down in weight.
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We fly a lot over roadless mountains and snow, pretty much required in half the possible direction of travel. If we go down, everyone’s going to want a sleeping bag. The tents weigh 3 pounds each, and the stove only a couple ounces. In either case, it’s not a weight issue but a bulk issue.
 
The whole time I kept thinking about your wife getting her license and instrument rating as a couple others have mentioned. Then buy or rent a backcountry two seater that can keep up.
I'm lucky my wife is game to start pilot training next year. We pack a lot too for our child and plan to have at least 3 kids. Before the kid we could split one bag for a week.
 
iamtheari said:
Get this one and tell us what the weird giant tail boom does! (The ad doesn't even mention it.)
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It’s for some kind of survey work. We had a couple of them operate out of my home airport a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I don’t know a lot of specifics on what equipment it holds or how it works. I didn’t talk to the pilots much.
 
AA5Bman said:
We fly a lot over roadless mountains and snow, pretty much required in half the possible direction of travel. If we go down, everyone’s going to want a sleeping bag. The tents weigh 3 pounds each, and the stove only a couple ounces. In either case, it’s not a weight issue but a bulk issue.
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Yeah, but emergency shelter doesn't even require sleeping bags. Maybe I've been watching too many bushcrafting videos, but you're carrying a stove. At that point, you really only need some tarps and cordage.
 
AA5Bman said:
We fly a lot over roadless mountains and snow, pretty much required in half the possible direction of travel. If we go down, everyone’s going to want a sleeping bag. The tents weigh 3 pounds each, and the stove only a couple ounces. In either case, it’s not a weight issue but a bulk issue.
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I grew up on the west coast. I live on the lee side of the Continental Divide. I still have a lot of family on the PNW coast. There's nothing but mountains from here to there. I love my Aztec when I am making those trips. I don't need to leave anything behind. ;)

It's 1200 nm from my airport to KOSH. The last trip there I had 4 adult guys, 3 tents (including my 4 place stand-up cabin tent with screened vestibule), 3 beer coolers (my friends drink a lot, apparently, as we were always tight for space for food), 4 lawn chairs (two of mine are rockers, for my advanced age :D),plus the usual assortment of duffle bags and camping gear. Our trip legs were 3.5 to 4.5 hours, with more than adequate fuel reserves.

For clarity, re: post below...

GRG55 said:
...I fly my twin a LOT more than the singles because it is so much more capable than any of my singles. Conditions that would leave the singles parked in the hangar while I flew commercial are no big deal for the Aztec (among other things I just don't do single engine IFR in IMC over the mountains, period).
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...When I owned single engine planes there were a lot of mornings that were VFR at origin & destination and at altitude across the route, but my airplane stayed in the hangar - because the valleys between here and the west coast were fog shrouded or low cloud obscured. All the towns and airports are down in the valleys beside a river or on a lake. No way was I going to chance an engine out glide into that situation.
 
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EdFred said:
Yeah, but emergency shelter doesn't even require sleeping bags. Maybe I've been watching too many bushcrafting videos, but you're carrying a stove. At that point, you really only need some tarps and cordage.
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How much time have you spent camping in the snow with a tarp and some cordage? Hypothermia is the main killer once you haven't bled out from impact, so we're taking sleeping bags.
 
AA5Bman said:
How much time have you spent camping in the snow with a tarp and some cordage? Hypothermia is the main killer once you haven't bled out from impact, so we're taking sleeping bags.
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Yep. I know that. But we are talking emergency vs luxury vs space. It's just like a plane, pick 2 out of three, but not all three.
 
EdFred said:
Yep. I know that. But we are talking emergency vs luxury vs space. It's just like a plane, pick 2 out of three, but not all three.
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And I was just about to reconsider things.... I don't have room in the Arrow for my wife, kid, sleeping bags, tent, camp stove, survival food, hunting equipment, extra warm clothes..... started looking at PC-12s....

(still jealous of you and @Rgbeard and the others who have the big pipers... lance, togas, cherokee 6's..... Now I have an excuse for my wife to get one... Survival!)
 
Deelee said:
And I was just about to reconsider things.... I don't have room in the Arrow for my wife, kid, sleeping bags, tent, camp stove, survival food, hunting equipment, extra warm clothes..... started looking at PC-12s....

(still jealous of you and @Rgbeard and the others who have the big pipers... lance, togas, cherokee 6's..... Now I have an excuse for my wife to get one... Survival!)
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I ain't got a big Piper. Just the big engine.
 
Buy food at your destination vs packing it. That is cheaper than buying a bigger airplane
 
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