Upgrade from Cherokee 180 to Mooney E?

cowtowner

cowtowner

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Cowtowner
I've had a PPSEL for a year, have about 300 hours TT.

Locally there is a '65 Mooney E with a Garmin GTN750 and a newish engine (300smoh). The AP is inop. Good paint, great new interior. No fuel leaks.

My current plane is a '65 Cherokee C 180. Has about 900smoh, good working STEC 30AP, Garmin GTX345, dual vacuum pumps, great paint, newish leather interior.

I bought the Cherokee a year ago, and have been offered $10,000 over what I paid for it, probably could get $15,000 over if I marketed it right. If I kept it, I was going to put in a GNC355 and tie it into the AP.

This Mooney I could get for about $25,000 above the price if I sell the Cherokee, then add X dollars to fix or upgrade the AP.

I don't fly with a crowd, and the back seats being small in both the Cherokee or the Mooney don't bother me. It's usually me, or me and the wife. (usually means I've never had more than one passenger, ever).

I know a E model could have been had for a lot less a year ago, but as with everything these days, there is a lot of inflation in the market.

The upgrade makes sense to me, and I could probably even sell it to the wife.

Yes, I'd love a Bonanza, but right now to find one for less than $140,000, you are talking about junk.

What say you?
 
mooney for the win. I mean, if speed is your thing and whatnot. do u plan to get your IR? an AP would be a nice to have.
 
great resource for Mooney - https://mooneyspace.com/
I would recommend you also post there if you have not. other than that, I have no idea, i dont think i can fit into a mooney (read: I drool, but not going there)
 
I plan to get my IR, and my Cherokee I've flown almost 200 hours, from Ft. Worth to Denver twice, Nebraska, South Texas, Kansas, Illinois, Branson. Mostly for work, longer flights. An AP is a must for me.

eman1200 said:
mooney for the win. I mean, if speed is your thing and whatnot. do u plan to get your IR? an AP would be a nice to have.
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cowtowner said:
I plan to get my IR, and my Cherokee I've flown almost 200 hours, from Ft. Worth to Denver twice, Nebraska, South Texas, Kansas, Illinois, Branson. Mostly for work, longer flights. An AP is a must for me.
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you can fly to all those same places, only faster.

ya, go on mooneyspace and ask whether you should have a cherokee or a mooney. let me clue you in on what the response will be............

if AP is a must, and the mooney doesn't have an AP................$$$

what's YOUR reasoning for even considering the upgrade?
 
You're going to fly faster and burn less fuel, thanks to fuel injection. The avionics for an M20E are the same available for all the newer Mooneys. That said, in today's market, the Delta between a Cherokee 180, which can be used as a trainer, and M20E shouldn't be that much (even if the Mooney is the much better airplane). The $3-4 less an hour in gas and 40 more knots will make a big difference in your operating costs. The one downgrade is UL.

Definitely look at G5s and a GFC500
 
N1120A said:
You're going to fly faster and burn less fuel, thanks to fuel injection. The avionics for an M20E are the same available for all the newer Mooneys. That said, in today's market, the Delta between a Cherokee 180, which can be used as a trainer, and M20E shouldn't be that much (even if the Mooney is the much better airplane). The $3-4 less an hour in gas and 40 more knots will make a big difference in your operating costs. The one downgrade is UL.

Definitely look at G5s and a GFC500
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40 is a stretch on an E model. I routinely got 124kts with my D model Cherokee (w/ speed mods). I don't think E's are putting out 165kts. They *say* they do, but they also say the Comanche goes faster than it actually does.
 
MY reasoning?

Lots of the places I fly are a 4-5 hour flight in the Cherokee. With 5 hours of fuel on board, I am always having to have at least one fuel stop, and you know that in the real world adds an hour. The Mooney would allow those flights to be non stop.


eman1200 said:
you can fly to all those same places, only faster.

ya, go on mooneyspace and ask whether you should have a cherokee or a mooney. let me clue you in on what the response will be............

if AP is a must, and the mooney doesn't have an AP................$$$

what's YOUR reasoning for even considering the upgrade?
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cowtowner said:
MY reasoning?

Lots of the places I fly are a 4-5 hour flight in the Cherokee. With 5 hours of fuel on board, I am always having to have at least one fuel stop, and you know that in the real world adds an hour. The Mooney would allow those flights to be non stop.
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sounds like a good enough reason to me! DO IT!!!!!
 
Hurry up and pull the trigger or I'm going to go looking for that E model!
 
cowtowner said:
MY reasoning?

Lots of the places I fly are a 4-5 hour flight in the Cherokee. With 5 hours of fuel on board, I am always having to have at least one fuel stop, and you know that in the real world adds an hour. The Mooney would allow those flights to be non stop.
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Is the reason for an airplane the destination or the flying? If it's the flying, is it really a problem that the flight takes more time than if you had a faster airplane?

A why would you stop with a slow Mooney? Why not something faster? That is, at some point, fast is fast enough.
 
Bob Noel said:
Is the reason for an airplane the destination or the flying? If it's the flying, is it really a problem that the flight takes more time than if you had a faster airplane?

A why would you stop with a slow Mooney? Why not something faster? That is, at some point, fast is fast enough.
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He said it was mostly for work. And faster = more money - which he doesn't want to spend.
 
An Echo is a lot of bang for the buck. E's sell from a premium, if you want to save some coin look fro a C. Difference in average trip time is a few minutes. The short body Mooneys are the biggest bang for the buck in all of GA.
 
Bob Noel said:
Is the reason for an airplane the destination or the flying? If it's the flying, is it really a problem that the flight takes more time than if you had a faster airplane?

A why would you stop with a slow Mooney? Why not something faster? That is, at some point, fast is fast enough.
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I love to fly, and flying around getting $100 hamburgers and taking the wife shopping in a small town are great reasons to fly. But I also justify the expense by using it for work and going to see customers. Droning along at 10,500 for hours on end isn't the fun part of flying, and speed is better.

Why not go faster than a Mooney E? Because the market is stupid. A J Model is over $100k and I would love a Bonanza, my dream airplane. But for a decent Bo, you are closer to $200k. That I can't justify to myself or my wife. If money was no option, I'd buy a G5 Cirrus with an Air Conditioner.
 
bflynn said:
Hurry up and pull the trigger or I'm going to go looking for that E model!
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If I don't make a deal on it in the next couple of days, I'll send you the info.
 
cowtowner said:
My Cherokee is about a 118kts plane, I think even at 145kts its an upgrade.
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I get that part - I'm for you 100%.

I'm simply trying to say - don't worry about the step-up here.

Getting your head around complex, and flying it safely/properly isn't too great of a task. It should be WELL within your abilities.

Hell, if I can do it..... ;)
 
Just double check the cost of insurance.
 
eman1200 said:
...ya, go on mooneyspace and ask whether you should have a cherokee or a mooney. let me clue you in on what the response will be............

...
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Isn't that similar to going on the Texas Cattlemen's Livestock Commission Co. FB page and asking them whether you should eat beef or chicken? let me clue you in on what the response will be...:D

cowtowner said:
MY reasoning?

Lots of the places I fly are a 4-5 hour flight in the Cherokee. With 5 hours of fuel on board, I am always having to have at least one fuel stop, and you know that in the real world adds an hour. The Mooney would allow those flights to be non stop.
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cowtowner said:
My Cherokee is about a 118kts plane, I think even at 145kts its an upgrade.
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If you are doing 4-5 hour flights in a Cherokee 180, the Mooney 'E' is a no brainer. If it's rigged correctly you should be able to do an honest 150 knots TAS with an 'E' - two close friends of mine have a very nice stock '66 'E' and that's where it seems to settle in best at 8000+ ASL in cruise. They might have done a bit better than that when new, but 55+ years can make a difference.

steingar said:
...The short body Mooneys are the biggest bang for the buck in all of GA.
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Except for a Bo. Apparently a bargain at any price. Must be true; I heard it on the internet. :p
 
I had an e for several years. 145knots is a good number. It also had pc. Positive Control. It was a vacuum operated wing leveler. It really did a nice job. Poor man's autopilot. But it worked...
 
EdFred said:
40 is a stretch on an E model. I routinely got 124kts with my D model Cherokee (w/ speed mods). I don't think E's are putting out 165kts. They *say* they do, but they also say the Comanche goes faster than it actually does.
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124 is a very, very good speed for a 180, and your mods definitely help. I routinely get stuck behind 180s doing more like 115. Meanwhile, the M20E, decently rigged, is a 150-155 knot airplane before getting into the J mods.

I mean, I'm regularly doing 142-143 in my Tiger and an M20E should be a good deal faster.
 
How many hours a year do you fly?

How often do you fly longer cross country trips (not hamburger runs)?

If you fly 100 hours and fly longer trips: get the Mooney.

If you fly 20 hours and rarely fly longer trips: keep the 180.
 
steingar said:
An Echo is a lot of bang for the buck. E's sell from a premium, if you want to save some coin look fro a C. Difference in average trip time is a few minutes. The short body Mooneys are the biggest bang for the buck in all of GA.
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Until a low time pilot gets the insurance bill. 7-9% of hull value / year to get you started.
 
cowtowner said:
My Cherokee is about a 118kts plane, I think even at 145kts its an upgrade.
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Your Cherokee is faster than the one I flew, which liked to cruise at 105 KTAS. You mentioned trips of 4-5 hours. Let’s average that out to 4.5, which means you’re taking trips around 530 nm. If you can get 145 KTAS out of the Mooney, that comes out to 3.7 hours on the same distance, a savings of 0.8 hours each way not even counting the fuel stop. The fuel stop is even bigger, as you know. (Someone here wrote that saving a fuel stop is the best speed mod you can get.)

And headwinds are less painful as a percentage of your true airspeed. A 20-knot headwind makes your 530-mile trip take 5.4 hours in the Cherokee or 4.2 hours in the 145-knot Mooney, an increase of 0.9 in the Cherokee or just 0.5 in the Mooney.

The speed will make a real difference. My upgrade was to an Arrow that cruises at 130 KTAS on 9 gph. Short-body Mooneys are a little faster with a little bit sportier seating position.

You should be insurable in the Mooney with your current total time. I needed 5 hours of dual and 5 hours of solo before taking passengers in the Arrow and I had less total time when I bought it, but the insurance market was a little bit friendlier then.

I know someone with an M20C. He flies around for fun as often as or more than he goes cross-country. You won’t lose the $100 hamburger side of flying just because you have to remember to put the wheels down and can go a little faster when you do travel.

Sit in the plane to see if you like how it fits. Then get an insurance quote. Then buy the plane.
 
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iamtheari said:
Your Cherokee is faster than the one I flew, which liked to cruise at 105 KTAS.
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side thread drift:

I know you weren't responding to my post... but, my stock pa-28-140 would easily cruise at 105 KTAS.

Are people confusing KTAS and KIAS?
 
Bob Noel said:
side thread drift:

I know you weren't responding to my post... but, my stock pa-28-140 would easily cruise at 105 KTAS.

Are people confusing KTAS and KIAS?
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Other people might be confusing true and indicated airspeed, but not I. My Cherokee time was in a PA-28-180 that I rented for a while to finish my private, before I bought my own plane. If memory serves, the engine was higher time and I didn't run it at maximum rental power, probably 65%. I also don't think the horsepower difference makes that much of a cruise speed difference, given the same wings. I don't know how much speed could be squeezed out of the Cherokee 180, because I bought an Arrow to go faster. I'm sure a smart pilot with a well-rigged plane and a lower-time engine could get 120 knots out of the Cherokee.
 
To the OP, don’t let anyone convince you that you need to make 4-hour+ trips for speed to pay off. It’s more fun to fly fast and for sure nicer to have the option to fly fast. If you want to take forever to get from point A to point B and be able log more time per trip just throttle back and go LOP.

I wonder how many folks while cruising at 150kts have said “I wish I were flying a Cherokee”?
 
Johnbo said:
To the OP, don’t let anyone convince you that you need to make 4-hour+ trips for speed to pay off. It’s more fun to fly fast and for sure nicer to have the option to fly fast. If you want to take forever to get from point A to point B and be able log more time per trip just throttle back and go LOP.

I wonder how many folks while cruising at 150kts have said “I wish I were flying a Cherokee”?
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Depends on if they were cussing a landing gear malfunction, lol.
 
N1120A said:
It is more likely you have a gear failure on a fixed gear Cherokee than a manual gear Mooney
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What’s your source for that? I know of Johnson bar Mooneys with prop strikes due to collapsed nose gear. I don’t know of Cherokees with that history. That’s just me, a ridiculously small sample size. But a general assessment like yours would be nice to check against the entire fleet statistics if possible.
 
iamtheari said:
What’s your source for that? I know of Johnson bar Mooneys with prop strikes due to collapsed nose gear. I don’t know of Cherokees with that history. That’s just me, a ridiculously small sample size. But a general assessment like yours would be nice to check against the entire fleet statistics if possible.
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How many fixed gear Cherokees have had the gear go into the wing on a hard landing?

Johnson bar Mooneys collapse because people don't want to go around on bounces.
 
N1120A said:
It is more likely you have a gear failure on a fixed gear Cherokee than a manual gear Mooney
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I only wish this were true. I sometimes wonder how any of us can even get insurance. The number of gear up accidents and collapses has to cost more than they can collect in premiums. Lots and lots of them are in manual gear airplanes. A lot more Mooneys gear up and collapse than Cherokees have any sort of gear problem.
 
Johnbo said:
I wonder how many folks while cruising at 150kts have said “I wish I were flying a Cherokee”?
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otoh - how many folks while cruising at 150kts have said "I wish I were flying faster"?
 
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