United pilot has heart attack mid flight

1600vw

1600vw

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From the reports two nurses on board saved this man life.

False since of security having a third class medical in place for it did not help here.

Not real comforting to the passenger whom think they are safe for their pilot passed a third class medical.

Fuel for the cause of self certify and the recreational pilot, for self certify is no worse the then third class medical.

If this is going to happen to a pilot whom passed this Third class medical really whats the argument that not having it is worse.

Tony
P.S. I might only be a SP but are we not all pilots. Sorry if I play in the world of the Big Iron. Maybe my airplane needs a sticker or sign on it that says....When I grow up I want to be a Jet....
 
1600vw said:
From the reports two nurses on board saved this man life.

False since of security having a third class medical in place for it did not help here.

Not real comforting to the passenger whom think they are safe for their pilot passed a third class medical.

Fuel for the cause of self certify and the recreational pilot, for self certify is no worse the then third class medical.

If this is going to happen to a pilot whom passed this Third class medical really whats the argument that not having it is worse.

Tony
P.S. I might only be a SP but are we not all pilots. Sorry if I play in the world of the Big Iron. Maybe my airplane needs a sticker or sign on it that says....When I grow up I want to be a Jet....
Click to expand...


You mean a First Class medical....the six month variety.
 
1600vw said:
From the reports two nurses on board saved this man life.

False since of security having a third class medical in place for it did not help here.

Not real comforting to the passenger whom think they are safe for their pilot passed a third class medical.

Fuel for the cause of self certify and the recreational pilot, for self certify is no worse the then third class medical.

If this is going to happen to a pilot whom passed this Third class medical really whats the argument that not having it is worse.

Tony
P.S. I might only be a SP but are we not all pilots. Sorry if I play in the world of the Big Iron. Maybe my airplane needs a sticker or sign on it that says....When I grow up I want to be a Jet....
Click to expand...

:rolleyes2: :nonod:
 
1600vw said:
If this is going to happen to a pilot whom passed this Third class medical really whats the argument that not having it is worse...
Click to expand...

Lame arguments are regularly made:

Seat belts can kill you in some circumstances.

A BRS could lower you into an electrical sub-station or onto a freeway or...

My grandmother smoked two packs a day and lived to be 95.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

But the odds are...
 
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No medical can ensure you won't have a heart attack,after the exam.
 
timwinters said:
Seat belts can kill you in some circumstances.

A BRS could lower you into an electrical sub-station or onto a freeway or...

My grandmother smoked two packs a day and lived to be 95.

Lather, rinse, repeat...
Click to expand...

And just what does this have to do with a medical and flying?

My point to the post.. self certify is no more dangerous then one flying with a medical.

Tony
 
Is it that social media and the press are reporting these events now when they didn't report them in the past or are we seeing more of them happening ?
A first class medical can only reduce the odds of a cardiac event occuring, not eliminate it. 30% have a heart attack as their initial manifestation of cardiac disease.
 
weilke said:
Is it that social media and the press are reporting these events now when they didn't report them in the past or are we seeing more of them happening ?
A first class medical can only reduce the odds of a cardiac event occuring, not eliminate it. 30% have a heart attack as their initial manifestation of cardiac disease.
Click to expand...

How the media acts like wolfs after a catch I doubt they would not pass up a story.
I wonder if maybe it has to do with everyone having a camera and phone at the ready and now things like this get reported almost in real time as it's happening.

Tony
 
1600vw said:
And just what does this have to do with a medical and flying?

My point to the post.. self certify is no more dangerous then one flying with a medical.

Tony
Click to expand...

So you don't think that anything observed in the first class medical process is predictive?

You don't think that disease progression can be detected from one first class medical to the next?

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
So you don't think that anything observed in the first class medical process is predictive?

You don't think that disease progression can be detected from one first class medical to the next?

-Skip
Click to expand...

I did not say that. I said one is no better then the other.

Tony
 
1600vw said:
My point to the post.. self certify is no more dangerous then one flying with a medical.
Click to expand...
You can't draw that conclusion based on one event.

"Someone died while wearing a seatbelt, so not wearing a seatbelt is no more dangerous than wearing one."
 
tiger said:
You can't draw that conclusion based on one event.

"Someone died while wearing a seatbelt, so not wearing a seatbelt is no more dangerous than wearing one."
Click to expand...

Compare apples to apples.

So I take it you are against this bill of allowing recreational pilot to self certify like the SP program does?

Tony
 
Skip Miller said:
So you don't think that anything observed in the first class medical process is predictive?

You don't think that disease progression can be detected from one first class medical to the next?

-Skip
Click to expand...
The first class physical is at best a crude tool to predict cardiac events. If you have known medical issues you will be scrutinized but they don't require that pilots undergo most types of screening tests to detect underlying cardiac disease.
 
1600vw said:
Compare apples to apples.

So I take it you are against this bill of allowing recreational pilot to self certify like the SP program does?

Tony
Click to expand...
Why is that not comparing apples to apples? You've taken a single point of data and drawn a general conclusion.

I'm not opposed to self-certification, necessarily. But I'm not sure what that has do with your contention that a First Class Medical is (quote) "no better than" self-certification.
 
Gary F said:
The first class physical is at best a crude tool to predict cardiac events. If you have known medical issues you will be scrutinized but they don't require that pilots undergo most types of screening tests to detect underlying cardiac disease.
Click to expand...

And because every airline pilot knows this, it's safe to assume that some of them go out of their way to avoid ever having these screening tests done at all, at least "on the record."

-Rich
 
1600vw said:
From the reports two nurses on board saved this man life.

False since of security having a third class medical in place for it did not help here.

Not real comforting to the passenger whom think they are safe for their pilot passed a third class medical.

Fuel for the cause of self certify and the recreational pilot, for self certify is no worse the then third class medical.

If this is going to happen to a pilot whom passed this Third class medical really whats the argument that not having it is worse.

Tony
P.S. I might only be a SP but are we not all pilots. Sorry if I play in the world of the Big Iron. Maybe my airplane needs a sticker or sign on it that says....When I grow up I want to be a Jet....
Click to expand...

I'd think this would have the opposite reaction on the non pilot population.

From a passenger point of view if this was a single pilot flight it would have crashed. From a passenger point of view the pilot had a heart attack even after the medical screening. Passenger thoughts to fix this "more thorough medical testing not less"
 
1600vw said:
Compare apples to apples.

So I take it you are against this bill of allowing recreational pilot to self certify like the SP program does?

Tony
Click to expand...

That was exactly apples to apples and it's the same point I was trying to convey earlier.

Ignore thread.
 
lowtimer said:
I'd think this would have the opposite reaction on the non pilot population.

From a passenger point of view if this was a single pilot flight it would have crashed. From a passenger point of view the pilot had a heart attack even after the medical screening. Passenger thoughts to fix this "more thorough medical testing not less"
Click to expand...


Exactly why I did not mention this on facebook or some other forum. I have no respect for the answers I would get on this subject. I do respect those in this forum or group.

From the remarks....Most on this forum are against the Self Check for any type of flying?
 
The ECG can show impending heart problems, or reveal previous infarcts that the pilot didn't feel. Self-certification is NOT nearly as good. The blood pressure check is another diagnostic tool totally absent in a self examination.

Dan
 
RJM62 said:
And because every airline pilot knows this, it's safe to assume that some of them go out of their way to avoid ever having these screening tests done at all, at least "on the record."

-Rich
Click to expand...

This ^

Redundancy is your best safety net in this regard I would think. Reality is in a small single if the pilot has an incapacitating event you are probably going to crash. Having said that the chances of that happening are no doubt less than your chances of getting wiped out by a drunk on the highway. So why sweat the small stuff.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The ECG can show impending heart problems, or reveal previous infarcts that the pilot didn't feel. Self-certification is NOT nearly as good. The blood pressure check is another diagnostic tool totally absent in a self examination.

Dan
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A resting ECG is a weak predictor of coronary artery disease.
 
As I sit waiting for my AME this topic is interesting. I believe that most professional pilots would take action if they were sure they had a disqualifying condition that could leave them incapable of flying. These have you EVER in your life questions are just silly. It seems the government is wanting to CYA themselves in case of a crash. I know just for the PIA aspect I am reluctant to see the doctor for any reason even with a lowly 3rd class.
 
Gary F said:
A resting ECG is a weak predictor of coronary artery disease.
Click to expand...

I wish the screening regime was more sophisticated, particularly for commercial pilots north of 50. Something like the AHA risk prediction tool and further testing (exercise stress test, stress-echo) based on the risk stratification should have a much better yield than resting ecg. The screening tool does have a number of history items, so there is still opportunity for pilots to lie, but smoking, diabetes, fasting blood glucose, and cholesterol can be independently verified.

But based on the response to using BMI as initial screen for OSA risk, I dont expect that aeromedical would be able to improve cardiac screening anytime soon.
 
weilke said:
I wish the screening regime was more sophisticated, particularly for commercial pilots north of 50. Something like the AHA risk prediction tool and further testing (exercise stress test, stress-echo) based on the risk stratification should have a much better yield than resting ecg. The screening tool does have a number of history items, so there is still opportunity for pilots to lie, but smoking, diabetes, fasting blood glucose, and cholesterol can be independently verified.

But based on the response to using BMI as initial screen for OSA risk, I dont expect that aeromedical would be able to improve cardiac screening anytime soon.
Click to expand...
How about a witnessed treadmill test without imaging or even ECG? If they can go 12 minutes or more on a Bruce protocol no additional testing would be required. Less than 12 minutes would require further evaluation. Fasting glucose and lipid panel could be helpful in risk stratification.
 
tiger said:
You can't draw that conclusion based on one event.
Click to expand...

"ONE" event???

This is merely the latest. And the one before it wasn't all that long ago.

I hope that some Congressional aide has been tasked with making a list of pilots who have had current 1st Class medicals in their pockets when they died or collapsed on flight decks.
 
SoloEqs said:
"ONE" event???

This is merely the latest. And the one before it wasn't all that long ago.

I hope that some Congressional aide has been tasked with making a list of pilots who have had current 1st Class medicals in their pockets when they died or collapsed on flight decks.
Click to expand...
The real question is how many more would have had heart attacks if allowed to self-screen. I'll say I have no clue.

In any case I don't think anyone is talking about pilots who current hold first class medicals self-certifying. In one sense the passengers are probably safer even if one pilot becomes incapacitated because there are two. That doesn't apply to people flying single-pilot.
 
tiger said:
I'm not opposed to self-certification, necessarily.
Click to expand...

If not for self-certification, you would never have heard of Chuck Yeager.

If you're not familiar with the story, Yeager took a header from a horse on 12 OCT 1947.

On 14 OCT 1947, he certified himself as being fit to fly, despite two broken ribs. He was right, and became the first man to break Mach 1, though he could not have passed the 3rd Class Medical.
 
Everskyward said:
The real question is how many more would have had heart attacks if allowed to self-screen. I'll say I have no clue.

In any case I don't think anyone is talking about pilots who current hold first class medicals self-certifying. In one sense the passengers are probably safer even if one pilot becomes incapacitated because there are two. That doesn't apply to people flying single-pilot.
Click to expand...
Who knows? We must compare the difference between nonexistent and ineffective screening. The reason we have not had more in-flight heart attacks is that this is a fairly rare event even in people with significant coronary artery disease. Even professional pilots spend more time on the ground than in the air so the majority of these events will occur outside the cockpit.
 
Everskyward said:
The real question is how many more would have had heart attacks if allowed to self-screen. I'll say I have no clue.
Click to expand...

The number would be low, if the SP ranks are any indication.

Consider that a large (and growing) number of people flying LSA are older pilots, who have let their medicals expire because they believe they won't pass the 3rd Class, much less the 1st Class.

I haven't heard of any of these folks crashing for medical issues, much less any issues which would be found in the 3rd Class exam.

There is also a long tradition of pilots who let their medicals expire and keep flying their Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft, hoping that they never get caught. I knew guys back when I was a kid who hadn't had a physical exam since they got out of the Army Air Forces, and the only people at the airport who "didn't know" were the two FAA guys who had planes there.

Don't misunderstand me -- I believe that it's a Good Thing to have regular exams, if you're flying passengers for hire or if you believe that you need to see a doctor.

However, I'm 56, and the only doctors that I've had to see in my whole adult life were for emergencies, tetanus boosters and required medical exams. I'm holding both the 3rd Class and the DOT medical card required for truck drivers (it's stupid that I have to pay two fees and take two exams which are the same, because two Federal agencies are jealous of each other).

I think it's pretty safe to say that I could self-certify and not be expected to fall out of the sky clutching my chest anytime soon.
 
Gary F said:
How about a witnessed treadmill test without imaging or even ECG? If they can go 12 minutes or more on a Bruce protocol no additional testing would be required. Less than 12 minutes would require further evaluation. Fasting glucose and lipid panel could be helpful in risk stratification.
Click to expand...

Fine with me, probably provided the best yield. I see two problems:
- pilots who are unable to do the test due to orthopedic limitations.
- the outcry over screening everyone with a strenuous test to catch the few who are at high risk.

A screening strategy that takes individual risk factors like family history and smoking into account is probably going to be easier to sell.

What is the likelyhood of significant disease developing in a 6month interval in a low-risk individual in their 50s ? Would biannual cardiac screening be sufficient ?
 
weilke said:
Fine with me, probably provided the best yield. I see two problems:
- pilots who are unable to do the test due to orthopedic limitations.
- the outcry over screening everyone with a strenuous test to catch the few who are at high risk.

A screening strategy that takes individual risk factors like family history and smoking into account is probably going to be easier to sell.

What is the likelyhood of significant disease developing in a 6month interval in a low-risk individual in their 50s ? Would biannual cardiac screening be sufficient ?
Click to expand...
If a person is unable to meet the minimum exercise requirements then additional testing would be required. A person's risk could be estimated based on blood tests including fasting lipids, glucose, and possibly HgB A1c. BMI and blood pressure would be also considered. Coronary calcium score could also be checked in selected cases. It would be fairly easy to develop software to get a reasonable estimate of having a cardiac event in the next year.
 
Gary F said:
If a person is unable to meet the minimum exercise requirements then additional testing would be required. A person's risk could be estimated based on blood tests including fasting lipids, glucose, and possibly HgB A1c. BMI and blood pressure would be also considered. Coronary calcium score could also be checked in selected cases. It would be fairly easy to develop software to get a reasonable estimate of having a cardiac event in the next year.
Click to expand...

Insurers that write multi-million 'key man' life insurance policies probably have that software already. This could all be done.

Arguably the bigger issue than 121 crews are the same guys when they retire and start to fly a citation or king-air single pilot.
 
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