United Airlines customer service

[citizen5000]

Turns out the guy has felony record. His wife was also bumped and she got off without an issue. So his excuse that he had to fly to see patients does not hold up since he was leaving his wife behind. No doubt we may even find out later they guy was drugged up or worse.

 

[Captain]

MSM and the general public won't care. They're out for blood and they'll keep screaming until something happens. Members of Congress are already jumping on the coat tails to "fix" this situation. I've even seen comments that say the crew can suck it and drive like everyone else to SDF.

Regardless of who was in the wrong and right UA lost big time and is still losing. In the end, "something" will be done to show they "fixed" the issue. Most likely the COC clause will be changed and/or some new DOT regulation will come out against IDB after boarding. Hopefully the crews don't get screwed on the back side.

Far more than MSM is out for blood. Look at this thread here. Look at all the folks who have said they'll "never fly UAL again". We got arm chair lawyers citing the rare "I've already sat down" defense and DOT and COC references galore. We even have an attack of pilot commuting for some reason...right here on this thread.

I get it looks bad this guy being dragged...but honestly that was his choice. And I do wish peeps would stop with the over booking slant. This wasn't a case of over booking. Airlines can deny boarding to passengers for any reason they want. It's in the fine print. That fact doesn't make me anti-passenger either. Restaurants can deny food to people, trains can deny passengers, football teams can deny games to fans, the list is endless.

Dr. Gay sex for drugs acted poorly and choose not to comply with the lawful order of a cop. Bad things tend to happen when that road is taken.

 

[JOhnH]

I was in a Subway sandwich place the other day and watched them call the police to have a customer removed that they did not want to be there. If you're on MY property and I ask you to leave you gotta leave. What part of that can't you understand or do you just like to demonize those EVIL airlines. ?

People get forcibly removed from somewhere by cops probably every day and probably a lot more dramatic than this. I really don't see what the big deal is - except that this has been trumped up on all the social media and made out to be more than it was. United just called the cops to have someone removed. If you feel the cops handled it poorly then take it out on them. United did not instruct the cops on how to accomplish this task in any way.

Did the guy already pay for his sandwich? And was he causing a scene, prior to being kicked out?

 

[JOhnH]

Turns out the guy has felony record. His wife was also bumped and she got off without an issue. So his excuse that he had to fly to see patients does not hold up since he was leaving his wife behind. No doubt we may even find out later they guy was drugged up or worse.

How does his wife getting off and him not prove that he didn't have patients to see? Does he require his wife to be present when he sees patients?

 

[EppyGA]

Do not overbook. If someone bought a ticket and does not show for the flight tough luck on them, no refund or booking a later flight on that ticket.

 

[CC268]

Last one

 

[Bill]

Far more than MSM is out for blood. Look at this thread here. Look at all the folks who have said they'll "never fly UAL again". We got arm chair lawyers citing the rare "I've already sat down" defense and DOT and COC references galore. We even have an attack of pilot commuting for some reason...right here on this thread.

I get it looks bad this guy being dragged...but honestly that was his choice. And I do wish peeps would stop with the over booking slant. This wasn't a case of over booking. Airlines can deny boarding to passengers for any reason they want. It's in the fine print. That fact doesn't make me anti-passenger either. Restaurants can deny food to people, trains can deny passengers, football teams can deny games to fans, the list is endless.

Dr. Gay sex for drugs acted poorly and choose not to comply with the lawful order of a cop. Bad things tend to happen when that road is taken.

Dude, don't be a killjoy, you're taking all the fun out of this thread by being logical and stuff. Knock it off!

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

How does his wife getting off and him not prove that he didn't have patients to see? Does he require his wife to be present when he sees patients?

Thank God I am not required to go every time my wife gets called in. It's hard enough to sleep listening to her get ready in the middle of the night to head in. Can't imagine if I was actually required to go with her.

 

[Tummler]

"Denied boarding" is a DOT term in the regulations which govern overbooking and denied boarding. Boarded has not ended until the flight has departed. A passenger can be "denied boarding" under DOT regulations regardless of their physical location on, or off, the airplane.

The DOT's Fly Rights site discusses the requirements of the regulation. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

Also, the offer often increases, as it did in this case. The final offer of $1,000 plus hotel would then be paid to all volunteers even if they volunteered when the current offer was less. A volunteer doesn't get paid less because they volunteered early.

The DoT regs do not prohibit airlines from affording its passengers greater contractual rights than the minimum required by the regs. Further, United's CoC does not indicate anywhere that the phrase "denied boarding," as used in the CoC, has a meaning that departs from its common meaning. As such, "denied boarding" in the CoC has the meaning that an ordinary person of average intelligence and experience would understand the phrase to mean. DoT regs do not enter the equation unless the CoC clearly states its terms should be defined in accordance with DoT regs, or if the DoT regs provide that "denied boarding," as used in CoCs, must be defined in a certain way.

Imagine an ordinary person, who has just taken their seat on a plane, receives a text from their spouse inquiring if they have boarded the plane. Do you really believe people would respond to that text in the negative because the plane has yet to push back from the gate? I don't.

I think you may confusing the concepts a plane's boarding in anticipation of a flight and an individual's boarding of a plane. With respect to the former, I can see how boarding is not complete until push-back, but as for the latter, not so much.

Last, although the DoT regs are more or less irrelevant to this issue, I note that the page to which you linked appears to support an interpretation of "denied boarding" that conforms to is ordinary use. The page provides the following:

DOT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily. Here's how this works. At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold.​

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You know, much is said about pilots willing to fly for little money, I wonder what the reaction would be if airlines ditched the entire contractual entitlement of commuting. Would pilots exit the profession over that? Just wondering.

This wasn't a commuting issue. And commuting isn't an entitlement. If I choose to live somewhere other than the domicile, I have to make sure I am at work when I am supposed to be there. If a flight is full and the Jumpseat is taken, I don't get on that flight. As a commuter, I don't get positive space privileges.

In this case, there was more than likely an irregular operations issue that caused that crew to be out of place for their regular trip, hence the last minute need for them to get on that flight. Ground transportation is not an option if you want to maintain schedule integrity. Another airline really isn't an option either if it is last minute if they don't have seats available.

I will grant you that it was handled poorly, but really it should be a reflection on airport security, not United Airlines. Unfortunately, United is left to deal with the fallout.

 

[Art VanDelay]

I love this Subway sandwich analogy, it's fun. In this case, guy bought a sandwich, had it in his hands, and was about to take his first bite. But, then the Subway employee says sorry, I have to take that sandwich back as one of the restaurant crew needs to eat. But, we can give you another sandwich in 24hrs.

Subway wouldn't be in business very long.

Subway's ability to remain in business would have great deal to do with the amount of ridiculous SPIN being put on the whole issue

 

[Art VanDelay]

Did the guy already pay for his sandwich? And was he causing a scene, prior to being kicked out?

In point of fact NONE OF THAT MATTERS. If you're asked to leave private property you have to GO - plain and simple.

Funny did anyone notice this was a black cop and a white person ? Wonder how bigger this would have been if it had been the other way around ????

 

[Tummler]

Exactly. I don't think the cops came over and yanked the guy out of his seat without a word. It probably went something like this:

police: Good morning sir.
the doc: (silence)
police: The flight crew is requesting that you de-board the plane. Please stand up, get your things, and we will walk you out of the plane back into the terminal.
the doc: I paid for this seat. I have the right to be on this flight.
police: Sir, our job is to escort you off this plane, so we need you to comply. We need you to stand up and exit the plane.
the doc: I'm not going anywhere
police: Sir, if you do not comply, we will have to forcefully remove you. Nobody wants that to happen.
the doc: (silence)
police: Sir, this is your last warning.
the doc: (silence)

The police then proceeded to remove the gentleman from the airplane as gently as they could, and he happened to bump his head during his own resistance.

Did they say if he was charged at all? He should be charged with disorderly conduct, in my opinion.

How about this:

police: Good morning sir.
the doc: Hello.
police: The flight crew is requesting that you de-board the plane. Please stand up, get your things, and we will walk you out of the plane back into the terminal.
the doc: I paid for this seat. The flight was not "oversold," and I have already boarded the plane. Therefore, United can't bump me to fix their crew scheduling mixup.
police: Well sir, this sure sounds like mess.
Police: Ms. FA, this sounds like a commercial dispute to me, and the passenger does not appear to be a risk. United needs to sort this out.
Ms. FA: We are now offering $1,200 + hotel. Any takers? No? How about $1,400 . . .

 

[jordane93]

How about this:

police: Good morning sir.
the doc: Hello.
police: The flight crew is requesting that you de-board the plane. Please stand up, get your things, and we will walk you out of the plane back into the terminal.
the doc: I paid for this seat. The flight was not "oversold," and I have already boarded the plane. Therefore, United can't bump me to fix their crew scheduling mixup.
police: Well sir, this sure sounds like mess.
Police: Ms. FA, this sounds like a commercial dispute to me, and the passenger does not appear to be a risk. United needs to sort this out.
Ms. FA: We are now offering $1,200 + hotel. Any takers? No? How about $1,400 . . .

When the company contacts the authorities, the person is getting off the plane. There's no negotiation. Not saying it's right or wrong. The LEO is not there to negotiate.

 

[Tummler]

The LEO is not there to negotiate.

Agreed wholeheartedly, which is why the LEOs should have removed themselves from the situation when it was apparent the passenger was not a public safety risk.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

In point of fact NONE OF THAT MATTERS. If you're asked to leave private property you have to GO - plain and simple.

Funny did anyone notice this was a black cop and a white person ? Wonder how bigger this would have been if it had been the other way around ????

First point isn't true. If I have paid for a service, you can't just "ask me to leave, plain and simple", and I have to go.

Second point is pretty speculative, and not relevant. Further... Dude was Asian, which reminds of a good Big Lebowski quote.

 

[Larry in TN]

I predict a 5 figure settlement from United

The women who was dragged off a Delta airplane in DTW less than five months ago was charged with disorderly conduct and paid a fine. No five-figure settlement for her.

Do not overbook.

JetBlue is the only US airline that does not overbook. Yet, JetBlue's denied boarding rate is one of the higher ones among other US airlines who do overbook.

Also, once again, this flight was not overbooked. It was fully booked. The problem was that must-ride airline personnel needed to be added at the last minute to prevent a flight cancellation in SDF the next morning.

The DoT regs do not prohibit airlines from affording its passengers greater contractual rights than the minimum required by the regs.

I never said that it did. I have described the requirements in detail above.

Further, United's CoC does not indicate anywhere that the phrase "denied boarding," as used in the CoC, has a meaning that departs from its common meaning.

The DOT rules do not restrict the involuntary denied boarding process to passengers who have not yet boarded the airplane. The common understanding of the phrase is not the basis for the regulation nor does it control its application. It is simply what the process as regulated by DOT is commonly called.

Here are the actual DOT regulations. Click through each following section using the [next] link. There is nothing restricting the carrier's ability to deny boarding to a passenger who is already onboard the airplane.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-250

If you want to enforce semantics then all the airline has to do is deplane all of the passengers first then handle the involuntary denied boarding in the gate area.

 

[weilke]

United PR concepts that didn't make it to production:

Board as a doctor, Leave as a patient

Best Gameshow Host Voice: "You can take the $800 for another flight, or risk it all for our big surprise..."

We put the hospital in hospitality.

 

[Captain]

How about this:

police: Good morning sir.
the doc: Hello.
police: The flight crew is requesting that you de-board the plane. Please stand up, get your things, and we will walk you out of the plane back into the terminal.
the doc: I paid for this seat. The flight was not "oversold," and I have already boarded the plane. Therefore, United can't bump me to fix their crew scheduling mixup.
police: Well sir, this sure sounds like mess.
Police: Ms. FA, this sounds like a commercial dispute to me, and the passenger does not appear to be a risk. United needs to sort this out.
Ms. FA: We are now offering $1,200 + hotel. Any takers? No? How about $1,400 . . .

How about this?

Police: Hi, my name is Dave.
Doc: Do you like cereal?
Dave: listen to me bark like a dog, "quack quack quack"
Doc: vroom vroom!
Dave: Do you hear my mom?


This is fun, we could come up with all sorts of ways it COULD have happened.

 

[JOhnH]

In point of fact NONE OF THAT MATTERS. If you're asked to leave private property you have to GO - plain and simple.

Funny did anyone notice this was a black cop and a white person ? Wonder how bigger this would have been if it had been the other way around ????

If that were the case, UAL may as well file bankruptcy now; or at least reserve a spot on the board for their new majority stockholder.

But it's not quite that plain and simple. For one thing, the guy was Chinese, so discrimination based on National Origin or Race does come into play.

My big gripe is not that they did this. It is HOW they did it, HOW they acted after it happened, and the fact that there were so many better options that could have avoided such a situation.

I was in a situation once where I thought I was going to be bumped at an awfully in-oportune time. I will spare you the details, but if they had actually denied me boarding, I am not sure how I would have reacted. It would not have been pretty. Fortunately, Delta listened to reason and went on to the next guy in line.

 

[Everskyward]

In point of fact NONE OF THAT MATTERS. If you're asked to leave private property you have to GO - plain and simple.

We get that. But if Subway makes a habit of refusing to provide a sandwich after someone has paid, word will get out.

Funny did anyone notice this was a black cop and a white person ? Wonder how bigger this would have been if it had been the other way around ????

He isn't white, he's asian, which is why it's a big deal in China, where United has a large market. Some over there are claiming racism. I'm sure racism didn't enter into United's decision, but there is that PR factor which you don't seem to understand.

 

[Tummler]

The DOT rules do not restrict the involuntary denied boarding process to passengers who have not yet boarded the airplane.

Agreed. However, United's CoC does limit United's available courses of action, which does not include the removal of boarded passengers to make room for other passengers.

The common understanding of the phrase is not the basis for the regulation nor does it control its application. It is simply what the process as regulated by DOT is commonly called.

You just said the DoT regulations do not restrict this process. Which is it? If those regulations do not prevent United from contractually agreeing to afford its passengers greater rights than the minimum required by the applicable regulations, and United elects to do so, then United has to live with same rules concerning the interpretation of contracts that everyone else does.

 

[JOhnH]

He isn't white, he's asian, which is why it's a big deal in China, where United has a large market. Some over there are claiming racism.

To make it even worse, United is currently trying to expand operations in China. This won't help their case.

I'm sure racism didn't enter into United's decision, but there is that PR factor which you don't seem to understand.

Agreed.

 

[Art VanDelay]

First point isn't true. If I have paid for a service, you can't just "ask me to leave, plain and simple", and I have to go.

Second point is pretty speculative, and not relevant. Further... Dude was Asian, which reminds of a good Big Lebowski quote.

You just ain't getting it are you ? If you're standing on my property it doesn't matter if you just handed me a billion dollars. - if I want you gone you have to leave.

 

[eetrojan]

"Denied boarding" is a DOT term in the regulations which govern overbooking and denied boarding. Boarded has not ended until the flight has departed. ***

Larry, got a cite, or a link, to the definition?

 

[Art VanDelay]

If that were the case, UAL may as well file bankruptcy now; or at least reserve a spot on the board for their new majority stockholder.

But it's not quite that plain and simple. For one thing, the guy was Chinese, so discrimination based on National Origin or Race does come into play.

My big gripe is not that they did this. It is HOW they did it, HOW they acted after it happened, and the fact that there were so many better options that could have avoided such a situation.

I was in a situation once where I thought I was going to be bumped at an awfully in-oportune time. I will spare you the details, but if they had actually denied me boarding, I am not sure how I would have reacted. It would not have been pretty. Fortunately, Delta listened to reason and went on to the next guy in line.

Actually it IS that plain and simple. You just want to go along with the spin and demonize the airlines. I'm sure Qatar or Emirates would have handled it FAR better.

 

[Palmpilot]

...For one thing, the guy was Chinese, so discrimination based on National Origin or Race does come into play....

Not that this matters, but the guy was from Vietnam, not China.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

You just ain't getting it are you ? If you're standing on my property it doesn't matter if you just handed me a billion dollars. - if I want you gone you have to leave.

There was a contract for service in place, and I'm not a lawyer, so I won't guess as to right, wrong or in between from legal sense... But I'm smart enough to know that it's a hair more nuanced than you're making it out to be. That's my point to you. Not that the Asian doctor was right, not that the black cop was right, not that United airlines was right... But merely that it isn't as simple as "it's private property, I can do as I please". My semester of contract law (which was probably passed with a solid C-) was too many years ago to argue much beyond that.

Or more succinctly: nah, I ain't getting it.

 

[Everskyward]

You just ain't getting it are you ? If you're standing on my property it doesn't matter if you just handed me a billion dollars. - if I want you gone you have to leave.

You aren't getting it either. If you do that for seemingly no good reason, the person who is being evicted or people who support them may go to social media and let the world know. I'm sure you don't care but I'm betting United does, based on the CEOs new, belated apology. United is lucky you aren't the CEO or they would be out of business in weeks.

 

[Tummler]

You just ain't getting it are you ? If you're standing on my property it doesn't matter if you just handed me a billion dollars. - if I want you gone you have to leave.

That is not the case. If you grant someone a license to be present on your property in exchange for valuable consideration, and that person has not violated the terms of the license, you cannot unilaterally revoke the license and demand they leave your property. They have a legal right to present on your property equal to yours.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

That is not the case. If you grant someone a license to be present on your property in exchange for valuable consideration, and that person has not violated the terms of the license, you cannot unilaterally revoke the license and demand they leave your property. They have a legal right to present on your property equal to yours.

Yeah... Something like that is what I was trying to say.

I'm guessing you did better than a C- a decade ago.

 

[JOhnH]

Actually it IS that plain and simple. You just want to go along with the spin and demonize the airlines. I'm sure Qatar or Emirates would have handled it FAR better.

Methinks you and a few others have an ulterior motive for defending this action. You work for an airline, right?

I am sure that deep down, you know that what United did was just plane ( ) wrong. Legal maybe, but wrong.

 

[Art VanDelay]

We get that. But if Subway makes a habit of refusing to provide a sandwich after someone has paid, word will get out.

He isn't white, he's asian, which is why it's a big deal in China, where United has a large market. Some over there are claiming racism. I'm sure racism didn't enter into United's decision, but there is that PR factor which you don't seem to understand.

Let me help you with this a bit - you walk out to your shiny corporate jet to take a group of business men on a trip to East Bum Phuc. Well it just so happens your company has some critical parts that need to get to East Bum Phuc or TWO other charters are going to have to cancel if they don't get these parts.

Thing is - these parts are kind of heavy. W&B isn't working out. The only way you can avoid two other charters cancelling is to get one of your pax to step off. Clearly this is the lesser of two evils. You offer to send them on another flight and also offer an additional $1000 voucher good for future travel. No takers, nobody wants to budge. So I guess you just lose those two other charters - right ?

Because you just know if you call the cops and the cops are a bit rough it doesn't matter - it's all your fault for being a greedy charter company.

 

[Palmpilot]

That is not the case. If you grant someone a license to be present on your property in exchange for valuable consideration, and that person has not violated the terms of the license, you cannot unilaterally revoke the license and demand they leave your property. They have a legal right to present on your property equal to yours.

Most property is not governed by 14 CFR 91.3(a). If there is a contract dispute regarding operation of an aircraft, the solution is civil court, not defying PIC authority.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Methinks you and a few others have an ulterior motive for defending this action. You work for an airline, right?

I am sure that deep down, you know that what United did was just plane ( ) wrong. Legal maybe, but wrong.

No, no more than I blame Subway for getting the cops to haul someone off their property. I might blame the cops but not the people that called the cops.

 

[JOhnH]

No, no more than I blame Subway for getting the cops to haul someone off their property. I might blame the cops but not the people that called the cops.

Did this Subway guy do anything to deserve being kicked out? Or was he just randomly selected for kicking out because they had too much business?

 

[Art VanDelay]

That is not the case. If you grant someone a license to be present on your property in exchange for valuable consideration, and that person has not violated the terms of the license, you cannot unilaterally revoke the license and demand they leave your property. They have a legal right to present on your property equal to yours.

So then I guess the police acted illegally ???

 

[Palmpilot]

Methinks you and a few others have an ulterior motive for defending this action. You work for an airline, right?

I'm guessing that people who fly for the airlines have a better understanding of the rules they operate under than we do, so I wouldn't be so glib about dismissing their input. And I'm pretty sure that many of the airline pilots posting here do not fly for United, so there goes the ulterior motive theory.

 

[Everskyward]

Let me help you with this a bit - you walk out to your shiny corporate jet to take a group of business men on a trip to East Bum Phuc. Well it just so happens your company has some critical parts that need to get to East Bum Phuc or TWO other charters are going to have to cancel if they don't get these parts.

Thing is - these parts are kind of heavy. W&B isn't working out. The only way you can avoid two other charters cancelling is to get one of your pax to step off. Clearly this is the lesser of two evils. You offer to send them on another flight and also offer an additional $1000 voucher good for future travel. No takers, nobody wants to budge. So I guess you just lose those two other charters - right ?

Because you just know if you call the cops and the cops are a bit rough it doesn't matter - it's all your fault for being a greedy charter company.

The company I worked for would not have made a passenger get off in order to accommodate their own parts. If time was that critical, they would have flown another airplane to the site of the stranded airplanes. In fact, they did this numerous times.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Did this Subway guy do anything to deserve being kicked out? Or was he just randomly selected for kicking out because they had too much business?

Doesn't matter - the manager kept pointing to a sign that said they could refuse service to anyone.