United Airlines and Channel 9

[Greg Bockelman]

A lot of you fly United Airlines because they offer ATC communications on Channel 9 of the inflight entertainment system. It is apparently a good marketing tool, and people like it. They sometimes don't understand why a Captain would choose not to have it on during a flight. Well let me tell you why that may be.

I am currently flying with a Captain that told me a story about HIS experience with it.

Once upon a time, when this Captain was a brand new Captain, he was flying into Denver. He was talking to Company on one radio about an issue with the destination airport. His Co-Pilot was handling the radios. He listened to the ATIS, set the altimeter, and begun a descent. And leveled off. Problem was, the altimeter setting on the ATIS was not clear. He got it wrong by one inch. 1,000 feet. Of the 7 or so planes on the frequency, 5 got it wrong. The captain got a letter several weeks later and ended up getting a violation out of it.

Fast forward several years. The Captain had an FAA operations inspector onboard when the excrement hit the fan one day. After it was all over, the FAA inspector said that United Pilots were idiots to have channel 9 on. His reasoning was that when stuff happens, people WILL write to the FAA about what happened. Then they, the FAA, will investigate. That process usually takes several weeks to get the ball rolling. Usually, if the FAA (ATC) witnesses a problem, the violation process starts immediately.

In this Captain's case with the misunderstood altimeter setting years before, since the violation process took several weeks to start, the FAA Inspector said it almost certainly resulted from a passenger writing to the FAA about what happened with the Altimeter setting.

So, even though Channel 9 is a good marketing tool, passengers can and do write to the FAA about what happens on flights, whether they understand it or not. And people have been violated over it. It makes me want to think twice, myself, about having it on.

 

[SkyHog]

A lot of you fly United Airlines because they offer ATC communications on Channel 9 of the inflight entertainment system. It is apparently a good marketing tool, and people like it. They sometimes don't understand why a Captain would choose not to have it on during a flight. Well let me tell you why that may be.

I am currently flying with a Captain that told me a story about HIS experience with it.

Once upon a time, when this Captain was a brand new Captain, he was flying into Denver. He was talking to Company on one radio about an issue with the destination airport. His Co-Pilot was handling the radios. He listened to the ATIS, set the altimeter, and begun a descent. And leveled off. Problem was, the altimeter setting on the ATIS was not clear. He got it wrong by one inch. 1,000 feet. Of the 7 or so planes on the frequency, 5 got it wrong. The captain got a letter several weeks later and ended up getting a violation out of it.

Fast forward several years. The Captain had an FAA operations inspector onboard when the excrement hit the fan one day. After it was all over, the FAA inspector said that United Pilots were idiots to have channel 9 on. His reasoning was that when stuff happens, people WILL write to the FAA about what happened. Then they, the FAA, will investigate. That process usually takes several weeks to get the ball rolling. Usually, if the FAA (ATC) witnesses a problem, the violation process starts immediately.

In this Captain's case with the misunderstood altimeter setting years before, since the violation process took several weeks to start, the FAA Inspector said it almost certainly resulted from a passenger writing to the FAA about what happened with the Altimeter setting.

So, even though Channel 9 is a good marketing tool, passengers can and do write to the FAA about what happens on flights, whether they understand it or not. And people have been violated over it. It makes me want to think twice, myself, about having it on.

Flying on most airlines sucks. Channel 9 is about the only thing that keeps me somewhat loyal to United (even though I've had about the worst customer service and lost baggage rates through United).

Plus, it keeps the pilots honest. If you can hear them make a mistake on the radio, its not likely that they're going to blame ATC or GA for their mistake (I've heard both blamed on USAir flights).

In the story told, though, it seems that if a bunch of others got it wrong, and the ATIS wasn't very clear, there shouldn't have been a violation. That sucks, and its wrong that he got hung on a moron passenger that wrote to the FAA.

ooh - the other thing I like about Channel 9 is knowing that things are happening before others do. For example, flying into Denver about 2 weeks ago, listening to Channel 9 revealed that we were trying to find some way into Denver's storms, and thats why we were so delayed. Finally they found us a hole, and I was able to explain that we'd be down soon as we were immediately cleared to descend quite a bit. We were then able to figure out if we'd make our next flight (turns out it was delayed too. bah).

Convenient and fun!

 

[Pilawt]

I was on a UAL trip DEN-BUR a number of years ago, dozing off with the headset tuned to Ch. 9. There had been nothing on the channel for quite a while when I hear our crew:

"Denver Center, United xxx."

[silence]

"Center, United xxx ...?"

[more silence]

"Grand Junction Tower, United xxx"

"United xxx, Grand Junction Tower, stand by one. Cessna 628 runway 29 cleared for touch-and-go; Cherokee 31 fox number two, follow the Cessna on base. [pause] United xxx, go ahead."

"Ummm, Grand Junction, United xxx ... ah, do you have the Center frequency for this sector ...?"

 

[ScottM]

Greg's own quote mention the word "usually"

Usually, if the FAA (ATC) witnesses a problem, the violation process starts immediately.

We really do not know for sure that it was a letter written by one of those annoying passenger things that airlines are forced to have to deal with or a FAA/ATC type person who was doing a little CYA. Nonetheless, the question for UAL is do they wish to continue to keep a market differentiator that pleases customers or do they wish to yet again **** off the people who are paying money for their poor customer service?

 

[Ted]

Greg, I'd always wondered about that myself as a potential misuse of channel 9. Were I in that position, I can't say I'd necessarily want everyone listening in to what's going on. Even if you've got weather to deal with, some people might get nervous with talk of thunderstorms, ice, etc.

 

[steingar]

United breaks guitars.

 

[maddog52]

Flew with a Captain that had a bad experience with Channel 9. They were holding due to low vis in SFO. A Southwest flight with a similiar callsign declares "min fuel". The UAL flight continues to hold. A passenger listening in calls his wife on the cell phone and tells her his airplane is running out of fuel. She calls the FAA and UAL to find out why her husband's plane is going to crash. Before the crew can even get to the gate, they are are already screwed. They are met in the cockpit by a Duty manger and an FAA inspector. They are grilled about their actions and fuel state, informed of possible violations and removed from their trip (read loss of pay). The FAA eventually dropped the investigation but not until everyone had wasted a bunch of time and money on lawyers. The crew got their pay restored 6 months later after a lengthy and expensive grievence process. All because some moron in the back doesn't know aviation terminology and decides to violate FARs by using his cell phone.

Another anecdote. Loading a 727 in KDCA. Pax sticks his head in the door and says "Will channel 9 be on fellas?"

Captain: "Who wants to know?"

Pax: "I'm Richard Weed. I'm an aviation attorney and I just wanted to let you know I'll be in the back taking notes incase anything goes wrong."

Captain reaches up, turns off channel 9 and says "It won't be on today."

Pax: "You can't do that!!"

Captain: "I just did. Enjoy your flight."

The point is, the BEST that can come out of using channel 9 from a pilots pespective is a "Thank you for channel 9" from a passenger. It happens about once or twice a year. On the other hand, you could open yourself up for a great big hassle.

 

[sba55]

This story doesn't make sense to me. How would the passenger have noticed that everybody got the altimeter setting wrong?

But that aside, I find Channel 9 to be annoying. It gives a bunch of passengers who have no clue what they're talking about the opportunity to make smart-*** remarks about "ATC". It's usually a mistake to give the misinformed information (see above with min fuel). If I were United, I'd get rid of it.

It's on my list of pet peeves, right behind the term "ATC delays", as in "we scheduled too many flights out of this airport and now we're blaming someone else".

 

[mikea]

Nonetheless, the question for UAL is do they wish to continue to keep a market differentiator that pleases customers or do they wish to yet again **** off the people who are paying money for their poor customer service?

Why would United let such a silly, trivial "service" like this ruin their perfect *** off people record?

 

[ScottM]

Why would United let such a silly, trivial "service" like this ruin their perfect *** off people record?

UAL is not alone in stretching the bounds of poor customer service. Many airlines do that same. American airline travel has turned into a Greyhound bus adventure. It will get worse. What I see happening in Europe scares the heck out of me. Airlines like Ryan Air and the air terminal run by the British Airport Authority can show us just how bad it can get. In Britain you cannot even complain about bad service, it is against the law to do so. If you try you may be arrested for insulting the customer service agents! SIGH!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

United breaks guitars.

Michael, what does that have to do with this thread?

 

[astanley]

UAL is not alone in stretching the bounds of poor customer service. Many airlines do that same. American airline travel has turned into a Greyhound bus adventure. It will get worse. What I see happening in Europe scares the heck out of me. Airlines like Ryan Air and the air terminal run by the British Airport Authority can show us just how bad it can get. In Britain you cannot even complain about bad service, it is against the law to do so. If you try you may be arrested for insulting the customer service agents! SIGH!

I LOVE that sign just before you enter the secondary security lines at T5.

I'm usually tired, cranky, and not looking forward to going through the "smiths baggage destruction" screening process, and then I read that sign. I either laugh or think "What are they serving in the Galleries south lounges today? Maybe a few bottles of gin and a biscuit for breakfast today..."

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Greg Bockelman]

This story doesn't make sense to me. How would the passenger have noticed that everybody got the altimeter setting wrong?

It wasn't the passenger.

 

[SCCutler]

Michael, what does that have to do with this thread?

'Zackly.

---

As for me, every flight I have ever taken on United was professionally handled, service was impeccable and Channel 9 was on.

That was from SFO to DFW. My only UAL flight.

To add, though, I have had two separate instances when UAL personnel went above and beyond to assist family members (high-maintenance family members) with complicated international arrangements, baggage, etc. handled well. Both events were at DFW, but my experience is that, if you have quality people at one station, it's not likely a fluke. Fact is, what they've been through, I sometimes fell like someone should give 'em a hug, say "It'll be alright..."

 

[roebuck85]

Fly on an airline with wireless internet.

Liveatc.net

problem solved (well at least for parts of the flight anyway)

 

[midlifeflyer]

But that aside, I find Channel 9 to be annoying. It gives a bunch of passengers who have no clue what they're talking about the opportunity to make smart-*** remarks about "ATC". It's usually a mistake to give the misinformed information (see above with min fuel). If I were United, I'd get rid of it.

I'm going to disagree for a number of reasons.

First, the "misinformed" sometimes get informed when something interesting comes their way.

Second, so far, anyway, I've never heard a smart-*** remark made by a passenger based on what they heard on Channel 9 (although I'm not, of course, standing at the cabin as folks depart. And if they do, bfd.

Third, I like listening to it. It's better than the movie. If you find it annoying, feel free to listen to a different channel.

 

[snowbird]

When I am on a United flight with ch 9 activated I always send my business card up front with a "Thanks for ch 9" note on the back.

 

[Everskyward]

Greg, I'd always wondered about that myself as a potential misuse of channel 9. Were I in that position, I can't say I'd necessarily want everyone listening in to what's going on.

I've thought about that too. While I don't mind and even encourage passenger visits when we are in cruise or not busy, and we take off the headsets and turn on the speakers, it's a little different with a anonymous audience of 200 or whatever. Or maybe you just get used to the idea like the CVR. I don't even think about the CVR until I read some transcript. Then I think of all the stupid things I've said in the past.

 

[wsuffa]

And everyone seems to forget that many ATC frequencies are covered on LiveATC.net.

So.... how much of a difference does Channel 9 really make in the long run?

 

[Everskyward]

And everyone seems to forget that many ATC frequencies are covered on LiveATC.net.

While that is true, how many people are going to go to the trouble of purchasing on-board internet service just for the purpose of listening to the flight they are on? Seems like they could be doing other, more interesting things like reading POA.

 

[bqmassey]

I'll be on a UAL flight next week. I usually have a laptop or MP3 player with me. I never knew about Ch 9. What kind of headphone jack is on the plane? I've never bothered to look.

 

[Tristar]

I personaly like listening to channel 9 on flights. It gives you the feeling of being in the cockpit with them. However I do understand the reason why someone would turn it off. Someone with no piloting background gets upset and writes to the FAA thus someone could get in trouble.

So, what about a kiosk to enter your pilot's certificate number?

Well..I know that wouldn't work...but it'd limit the questioning.

 

[Ted]

I've thought about that too. While I don't mind and even encourage passenger visits when we are in cruise or not busy, and we take off the headsets and turn on the speakers, it's a little different with a anonymous audience of 200 or whatever. Or maybe you just get used to the idea like the CVR. I don't even think about the CVR until I read some transcript. Then I think of all the stupid things I've said in the past.

Right, and my passengers are more in-line with yours. I only hit the pilot isolate if my passengers are talking when I need to talk to ATC, and it's easier to just do that than ask them to be quiet.

Then again, seeing as my passengers (when human) are generally people I know and therefore understand I'm human, I'm less concerned about them berating me for making a mistake. Also, that way I can more easily explain what's going on to passengers. For example, when the Angel Flight I did kept me on the ground, tried to clear me on a 200 nm detour, etc., I was able to explain to my passngers the conversation I was having. I think it kept them happier to know what was going on and what I did to fix the situation.

If I was actually flying to make money and had paying passengers, the expectations might be a bit different. And some people just have unrealistic expectations.

 

[gismo]

I'll be on a UAL flight next week. I usually have a laptop or MP3 player with me. I never knew about Ch 9. What kind of headphone jack is on the plane? I've never bothered to look.

On most flights it's a standard 1/8" stereo headphone jack. Ordinary earbuds work fine.

 

[Ghery]

The point is, the BEST that can come out of using channel 9 from a pilots pespective is a "Thank you for channel 9" from a passenger. It happens about once or twice a year. On the other hand, you could open yourself up for a great big hassle.

Given the number of captains that I've see at the door when deplaning lately, there's a reason they don't get thanked.

UAL is not alone in stretching the bounds of poor customer service. Many airlines do that same. American airline travel has turned into a Greyhound bus adventure. It will get worse. What I see happening in Europe scares the heck out of me. Airlines like Ryan Air and the air terminal run by the British Airport Authority can show us just how bad it can get. In Britain you cannot even complain about bad service, it is against the law to do so. If you try you may be arrested for insulting the customer service agents! SIGH!

Don't you just love LHR?

When I am on a United flight with ch 9 activated I always send my business card up front with a "Thanks for ch 9" note on the back.

Good idea. I can't do that Sunday as I'm sitting, listening to the surf on Kauai as I type this, on vacation and I don't have my business cards with me, but I'll remember that for my UA legs next month coming home from LHR through LAX. The rest of the trip is on LH (ouch!).

And, Scott is right. There are two differentiators UA has over their competition. CH 9 and E+ seating. Otherwise they're just another pressurized aluminum mailing tube to get me from point A to point B on the planet. Sorry, Greg.

 

[ScottM]

Given the number of captains that I've see at the door when deplaning lately, there's a reason they don't get thanked.

Good point, they hardly get the door open. I also seem to be on 757s a lot lately and UAL deplanes from door two so 1st class walks away from the cockpit.

Don't you just love LHR?

I love LHR so much that my last trip to Malaga Spain I went to Stockholm to catch a flight in order to avoid LHR! Has the transit security line gotten any better since terminal 5 opened?

 

[Everskyward]

Then again, seeing as my passengers (when human) are generally people I know and therefore understand I'm human, I'm less concerned about them berating me for making a mistake. Also, that way I can more easily explain what's going on to passengers. For example, when the Angel Flight I did kept me on the ground, tried to clear me on a 200 nm detour, etc., I was able to explain to my passngers the conversation I was having. I think it kept them happier to know what was going on and what I did to fix the situation.

I think in this way, our flights are more akin to your flights than to airline flights. Airline pilots are necessarily pretty isolated from the passengers so I think there's a tendency to think of the pilots as faceless people and it might be easier to turn someone in in that situation. Even if I've never met the passengers before a particular flight there's at least a certain amount of introductions and preliminaries that go on prior to us starting the engines. It's also easier to explain a problem or a delay to 9 people, especially if they are all associated with each other, than it is to 200. I've been questioned about things before and it's usually not a big deal if you can give a reasonable explanation.

If I was actually flying to make money and had paying passengers, the expectations might be a bit different. And some people just have unrealistic expectations.

It's true that you meet all kinds, but I've learned that people are just people no matter who they are. Despite the horror stories you hear about passengers I would say the a huge majority of them are reasonable, especially about safety issues.

 

[Ghery]

Good point, they hardly get the door open. I also seem to be on 757s a lot lately and UAL deplanes from door two so 1st class walks away from the cockpit.

I love LHR so much that my last trip to Malaga Spain I went to Stockholm to catch a flight in order to avoid LHR! Has the transit security line gotten any better since terminal 5 opened?

True enough about the 757s. But that wasn't much of an excuse on the RJ from PDX to SFO last Sunday. But, I was in a hurry to make a connection and there's no IFE on an RJ anyway.

I don't know. We didn't change planes at LHR this summer, and I won't be next month, either. And UA uses T1 and Alitalia uses T2, so T5 wasn't in the mix. BTW, as much as I dislike Lufthansa, I dislike Alitalia more. Rode them this summer on our vacation and I won't do it again.

 

[Ted]

I think in this way, our flights are more akin to your flights than to airline flights. Airline pilots are necessarily pretty isolated from the passengers so I think there's a tendency to think of the pilots as faceless people and it might be easier to turn someone in in that situation. Even if I've never met the passengers before a particular flight there's at least a certain amount of introductions and preliminaries that go on prior to us starting the engines. It's also easier to explain a problem or a delay to 9 people, especially if they are all associated with each other, than it is to 200. I've been questioned about things before and it's usually not a big deal if you can give a reasonable explanation.

That makes sense. Usually there's a reasonable explanation, and I've not found people who find problems with reasonable explanations yet. Then again ,there are certain people I just wouldn't let on my plane for that reason.

It's true that you meet all kinds, but I've learned that people are just people no matter who they are. Despite the horror stories you hear about passengers I would say the a huge majority of them are reasonable, especially about safety issues.

Also makes sense. When I explain to people "We're diverting. See that thunderstorm there? That's no fun." They tend to not complain about the diversion. For some reason, most people understand that thunderstorms, which are no fun to drive through, are likely less fun to fly through. Doubly so when I explain that thunderstorms disassemble aircraft.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Also makes sense. When I explain to people "We're diverting. See that thunderstorm there? That's no fun." They tend to not complain about the diversion. For some reason, most people understand that thunderstorms, which are no fun to drive through, are likely less fun to fly through. Doubly so when I explain that thunderstorms disassemble aircraft.

Or as you say, Cumulogranite

 

[ScottM]

I think in this way, our flights are more akin to your flights than to airline flights. Airline pilots are necessarily pretty isolated from the passengers so I think there's a tendency to think of the pilots as faceless people and it might be easier to turn someone in in that situation. Even if I've never met the passengers before a particular flight there's at least a certain amount of introductions and preliminaries that go on prior to us starting the engines. It's also easier to explain a problem or a delay to 9 people, especially if they are all associated with each other, than it is to 200. I've been questioned about things before and it's usually not a big deal if you can give a reasonable explanation.

It's true that you meet all kinds, but I've learned that people are just people no matter who they are. Despite the horror stories you hear about passengers I would say the a huge majority of them are reasonable, especially about safety issues.

Mari I am curious if you would ever consider a job with a major airline?

I ask because the type of flying you do sounds so much more fun than the type of flying that happens with big commercial carriers. It would seem that moving may be a step up in the pay scale but a step down in the happy factor that is also important in work.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Fly on an airline with wireless internet.

Liveatc.net

problem solved (well at least for parts of the flight anyway)

• I haven't found that many flights with wireless internet
• Channel 9 is free when available- I imagine the internet isn't (and I'm not complaining if the airlines charge for it)

And everyone seems to forget that many ATC frequencies are covered on LiveATC.net.

So.... how much of a difference does Channel 9 really make in the long run?

• I'm not going to carry charts so I can find the center frequencies as I carry enough stuff with me otherwise

LiveATC.net is a good thing but I find more utility on the ground.

 

[Skip Miller]

...but it'd limit the questioning.

Well, maybe not.

Pilots seem to have definite opinions about how a plane should be flown. As but one example, this board thrives on the ... uhhh .... discussions that result.

-Skip

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Well, maybe not.

Pilots seem to have definite opinions about how a plane should be flown. As but one example, this board thrives on the ... uhhh .... discussions that result.

-Skip

No Kidding.

 

[gismo]

No Kidding.

What, pilots with strong opinions? About flying no less? Impossible.

 

[Everskyward]

Mari I am curious if you would ever consider a job with a major airline?

Are you nuts?

I've always wanted to answer that question, which I have been asked countless times, in that way but I never have. I'm the type that never says never but the odds are rapidly approaching zero. I doubt that the airlines would be very interested in me anyway since I'm pretty sure I'm older than you. Seriously, I never grew up with the airline pilot dream and came into aviation through the back door. I spent my early pilot years, well, more that that, I would say at least half my flying career, in a pretty unstructured environment which more or less suited my personality. I always viewed the airlines as much too rigid for me. I see why they need to be that way but it wasn't very appealing.

I ask because the type of flying you do sounds so much more fun than the type of flying that happens with big commercial carriers. It would seem that moving may be a step up in the pay scale but a step down in the happy factor that is also important in work.

It always seems weird when someone talks about my job as being "fun". From the outside I guess it could look that way and from the inside I need to keep reminding myself that I have been very lucky. Right now I get to be pretty lazy although it hasn't always been that way. As far as pay goes, you're right, I'll never make what a major airline captain makes, but even if I started right now, if the airlines were hiring and if they would take a chance on me, both big ifs, it would take years to make up the differential. If I was 30 or even 40 that might be an option but that ship has sailed for me. Pay has never been my prime motivator anyway. Even if I lost my job tomorrow there are a lot of other options I'd like to explore and airlines really wouldn't even be a consideration.

Another demotivator is the fact that I have many friends who went the airline route and they have had very mixed results. Many people I know started at major airlines about the same time I started at 135 (about 10 years ago) and a majority of them ended up furloughed at some point, sometimes twice, and some of them still are.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Many people I know started at major airlines about the same time I started at 135 (about 10 years ago) and a majority of them ended up furloughed at some point, sometimes twice, and some of them still are.

Furloughs are a fact of airline life. It is very rare that a person can make it through a career and NOT get furloughed. In that regard, I have been VERY lucky.

 

[Everskyward]

Furloughs are a fact of airline life. It is very rare that a person can make it through a career and NOT get furloughed. In that regard, I have been VERY lucky.

Actually I should knock very hard on wood because there are a lot of corporate/charter/fractional pilots out of work right now too.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Furloughs are a fact of airline life. It is very rare that a person can make it through a career and NOT get furloughed. In that regard, I have been VERY lucky.

Same here, 24 years and counting.

 

[maddog52]

Given the number of captains that I've see at the door when deplaning lately, there's a reason they don't get thanked.
.

They are prohibited from opening the door until the parking checklist is complete. It sometimes takes time to get it done due to various factors. Plus if they are packing up for a quick plane change, quick crew change, short layover, or loading the box for a quick turn, they probably don't have time to stand in the cockpit door. And definitely not by the time first class has deplanned.