Unhappy end to a NASA spin test - Bonanza

[alfadog]

Doesn't look like NASA was anywhere near this one :wink2:

Nauga,
the high-alpha seat cover

Yeah, that idea came from NASA itself, if you read the blurb under the video on YouTube. Also that this was from the 1970's.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Pretty wild footage. I cannot imagine trying to unbuckle and get myself out the door with that much rotation in the spin.

 

[denverpilot]

Couple of observations:

"Are we near the TCA, perhaps?"

Brownie points if you remember those. Why was he even near it?

And we're those houses directly below him in spin number 4?

That puppy went flat fast on that last one and accelerated. Wheee.

Not a good day at the test pilot office.

Anyone think starting it almost 2000 feet higher contributed in any significant way? I'm unsure but curious.

 

[Warrior]

Pretty wild footage. I cannot imagine trying to unbuckle and get myself out the door with that much rotation in the spin.

I have read that when you do your aerobatics with your chutes on as per regulations that it can be a challenge to get out of the aircraft if necessary due to what you just said, too much rotation, difficult movement.

 

[rbridges]

I have read that when you do your aerobatics with your chutes on as per regulations that it can be a challenge to get out of the aircraft if necessary due to what you just said, too much rotation, difficult movement.

It seems that opening the door and climbing out could be very difficult if it were spinning you towards the pilot's side.

 

[nauga]

I have read [...] that it can be a challenge to get out of the aircraft if necessary due to what you just said, too much rotation, difficult movement.

I hear that a lot. I know or know of several people who have successfully jumped out of cabin-type GA airplanes due to departure/spin or structural failure and parachuted to (relative) safety. I'm not aware of anyone wearing a 'chute who has tried but been unable to exit.

I've done egress drills in every airplane I've flown wearing a 'chute - before I've flown them. Know *how* to go, know *when* to go.

Nauga,
whose RV-exit brief is "duck, shuck, and huck"

 

[dukeblue219]

I know or know of several people who have successfully jumped out of cabin-type GA airplanes due to departure/spin or structural failure and parachuted to (relative) safety.

I'm won't say it's not true because I don't know your background, but can you back that up at all? I know the number of people wearing parachutes in "cabin-type GA airplanes" is tiny, as is the number of structural failures each year. I've never heard of any one having the time to bail out of a GA plane due to a departure stall, either...

 

[Shepherd]

I'm not aware of anyone wearing a 'chute who has tried but been unable to exit.


Nauga,
whose RV-exit brief is "duck, shuck, and huck"

Those are the guys who don't get to write the after accident reports.

I know (knew) a guy who didn't get out when his plane went into an inverted flat spin during the unpleasantness in SEA. It takes a long, long time to reach the ground from 41,000 feet.

 

[nauga]

I'm won't say it's not true because I don't know your background, but can you back that up at all?

There's a video of someone leaving an airplane during a high-rate spin at the beginning of this thread. QED. As for the ones I had in mind when I posted above, I'll see if I can find a reference for you.

I've never heard of any one having the time to bail out of a GA plane due to a departure stall, either...

To clarify, by departure/spin I mean departure from controlled flight and/or spin, not departure from a location.

Nauga,
and his terms of art

 

[dukeblue219]

Fair enough. Just wanted clarification on what you meant.

There's a video of someone leaving an airplane during a high-rate spin at the beginning of this thread.

Well, ok, that's obviously an unusual situation. I would like to know if anyone has ever bailed out successfully from a standard cross country, non-military, non-acro, situation. Kind of doubt it.

To clarify, by departure/spin I mean departure from controlled flight and/or spin, not departure from a location.

Got it. It seems virtually impossible for anyone to bail out, much less deploy a chute, from a departure stall in a GA plane. But, it's also the sort of thing the average Joe on the street assumes we have a chute for, as in: "If the engine stalls after takeoff you just jump out and parachute down right?"

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Well, ok, that's obviously an unusual situation. I would like to know if anyone has ever bailed out successfully from a standard cross country, non-military, non-acro, situation. Kind of doubt it.

I no longer have the references, but at one time I was looking through the NTSB data base and found:

There was a student pilot who ran out of gas on final, turned away from the airport, and bailed out.

More than one person got a ride with an instructor then jumped without a parachute.

And, there are those who did have chutes in aircraft like a Pitts that, for whatever reason, rode it into the ground.

And from other sources, there was the guy who tried to fake his death by bailing out and leaving the airplane to (he hoped) fly into the ocean.

 

[Jaybird180]

I no longer have the references, but at one time I was looking through the NTSB data base and found:

There was a student pilot who ran out of gas on final, turned away from the airport, and bailed out.

More than one person got a ride with an instructor then jumped without a parachute.

And, there are those who did have chutes in aircraft like a Pitts that, for whatever reason, rode it into the ground.

And from other sources, there was the guy who tried to fake his death by bailing out and leaving the airplane to (he hoped) fly into the ocean.

 

[Skylane81E]

It is spelled
Suicide

 

[ClimbnSink]

Well, ok, that's obviously an unusual situation. I would like to know if anyone has ever bailed out successfully from a standard cross country, non-military, non-acro, situation. Kind of doubt it.

Been a bunch. Some of them skydiver/private pilots flying somewhere in their own planes. Was one where the FAA cited the guy as they felt he had engine out options that were suitable(C-150 iirc.) Plus the fake your own death crowd, happened in FL not too long ago.

 

[TriGear28]

You bring up some interesting ones!

More than one person got a ride with an instructor then jumped without a parachute.

Didn't one woman in Florida try twice? IIRC she tried once on a parachuting jump ride and got pinned down or something, then hired someone to take her up for photography, then bailed all the sudden!

And, there are those who did have chutes in aircraft like a Pitts that, for whatever reason, rode it into the ground.

I remember reading a story in the 90's of a test pilot in a canard who was testing aft c.g. situations, tried everything he could. Could not recover, stepped out of the a/c with a leg, and forced the stick back and forth. All the time with one leg in and one leg out, while leaning forward. Then thought about bailing, looked at the vsi, realized it only read a slow descent, left the engine running, laid down on the wing, and rode it into the ocean. If that story was true, it's certainly freaky.

And from other sources, there was the guy who tried to fake his death by bailing out and leaving the airplane to (he hoped) fly into the ocean.

I remember this guy too. A few years back.
Didn't he leave in a malibu mirage or the new turbine version from Indianapolis?

Then:

1. set the autopilot.

2. bail out over georgia/tn/al somewhere.

3. walk around all wet.

4. find his car or motorcycle conveniently located in a storage garage there

5. hide out

6. realize his elaborate plan didn't involve enough fuel to make it to the gulf.

lol

nice ones

 

[gismo]

While this event is very rare, it makes having a whole plane parachute worth it, IMO.

A jettisonable spin recovery chute would take care of this and be a lot less expensive as well as lighter.

 

[gismo]

I hear that a lot. I know or know of several people who have successfully jumped out of cabin-type GA airplanes due to departure/spin or structural failure and parachuted to (relative) safety. I'm not aware of anyone wearing a 'chute who has tried but been unable to exit.

On a dive test in the original Bonanza the pilot was unable to depart the airplane after a wing failed and died in the crash even though the door was rigged for jettisoning. An engineer was in the right seat and he bailed out and survived.

 

[Inverted]

On a dive test in the original Bonanza the pilot was unable to depart the airplane after a wing failed and died in the crash even though the door was rigged for jettisoning. An engineer was in the right seat and he bailed out and survived.

Is that the one where the wing failed, and blocked the door?

 

[nauga]

On a dive test in the original Bonanza the pilot was unable to depart the airplane after a wing failed and died in the crash even though the door was rigged for jettisoning. An engineer was in the right seat and he bailed out and survived.

This sounds remarkably similar to the Rockwell 112 example I was going to post as an example of a successful egress. In October of of '71 Rockwell was conducting flutter flight tests and blew the tail off a new 112. The pilot got out, the engineer did not. I found an AOPA Pilot from November 1980 online that references this much. I have talked to someone involved who said the FTE suffered a broken neck at the onset and made no attempt to get out but I have no verifiable reference for that part.

I was searching for another spin egress where an acquaintance jumped out of a Piper twin (with chase video) and found on Wikipedia (trust but verify) where Clay Lacy jumped out of an Arapahoe (Piper twin) in a spin. I don't know if it's the same event with something lost in passage or if there are two separate jumps from spinning Piper twins.

More recently the pilot jumped out of a Cessna Skycatcher in a spin. Details available through NTSB.

Three examples. There are more. There may be cases where one can't get out of a cabin-type GA airplane but it's definitely not a certainty.

Nauga,
and the flight test community

 

[TriGear28]

I no longer have the references, but at one time I was looking through the NTSB data base and found:

There was a student pilot who ran out of gas on final, turned away from the airport, and bailed out.

More than one person got a ride with an instructor then jumped without a parachute.

And, there are those who did have chutes in aircraft like a Pitts that, for whatever reason, rode it into the ground.

And from other sources, there was the guy who tried to fake his death by bailing out and leaving the airplane to (he hoped) fly into the ocean.

This sounds remarkably similar to the Rockwell 112 example I was going to post as an example of a successful egress. In October of of '71 Rockwell was conducting flutter flight tests and blew the tail off a new 112. The pilot got out, the engineer did not. I found an AOPA Pilot from November 1980 online that references this much. I have talked to someone involved who said the FTE suffered a broken neck at the onset and made no attempt to get out but I have no verifiable reference for that part.

I was searching for another spin egress where an acquaintance jumped out of a Piper twin (with chase video) and found on Wikipedia (trust but verify) where Clay Lacy jumped out of an Arapahoe (Piper twin) in a spin. I don't know if it's the same event with something lost in passage or if there are two separate jumps from spinning Piper twins.

More recently the pilot jumped out of a Cessna Skycatcher in a spin. Details available through NTSB.

Three examples. There are more. There may be cases where one can't get out of a cabin-type GA airplane but it's definitely not a certainty.

Nauga,
and the flight test community

I assume the skycatcher incident is this?
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20081004X11739&key=1

Did they modify the characteristics after that? Especially b/c the brs seems to have failed as well. concerning to me without knowing the rest of the story.

Thanks for bringing it up. Did not know about that one.

 

[Skylane81E]

Didn't Cessna loose a pair do Skycatchers to get the skycrasher moniker?

 

[alfadog]

Here is one of the oddball suicide or insurance scam/fake death ones.

NTSB Identification: LAX94LA098.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 1994 in BORREGO SPRINGS, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 01/03/1995
Aircraft: PIPER PA-28-180, registration: N56811
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
THE PILOT HAD TRANSMITTED A DISTRESS CALL THAT THE AIRPLANE WAS HAVING FUEL PRESSURE PROBLEMS. THE AIRPLANE WAS SQUAWKING TRANSPONDER CODE 7700. IT THEN DISAPPEARED FROM RADAR. THE PILOT HAD EARLIER LEFT A MESSAGE TO HIS WIFE ON A TELEPHONE ANSWERING MACHINE THAT 'I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ANY MORE...' GROUND WITNESSES OBSERVED A MAN PARACHUTE FROM AN AIRPLANE IN THE AREA AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT. THE PILOT'S BODY WAS FOUND ON DECEMBER 21, 1994.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

THE PILOT'S INTENTIONAL DECISION TO ABANDON THE AIRPLANE AND ALLOW IT TO FLY UNATTENDED.

 

[nauga]

Didn't Cessna loose a pair do Skycatchers to get the skycrasher moniker?

Don't know how many they've lost but they had two spin incidents that ended somewhat badly. The one referenced above and another that looks like the spin chute deployed normally but didn't arrest the spin before the strops twisted, preventing jettison of the chute. They dragged the chute back to the field behind the airplane and landed.edit: As flyingcheesehead correctly points out, the pilot rode it in. Thanks for the info.

Nauga,
twisted

 

[Jaybird180]

Here is one of the oddball suicide or insurance scam/fake death ones.

NTSB Identification: LAX94LA098.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 1994 in BORREGO SPRINGS, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 01/03/1995
Aircraft: PIPER PA-28-180, registration: N56811
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
THE PILOT HAD TRANSMITTED A DISTRESS CALL THAT THE AIRPLANE WAS HAVING FUEL PRESSURE PROBLEMS. THE AIRPLANE WAS SQUAWKING TRANSPONDER CODE 7700. IT THEN DISAPPEARED FROM RADAR. THE PILOT HAD EARLIER LEFT A MESSAGE TO HIS WIFE ON A TELEPHONE ANSWERING MACHINE THAT 'I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ANY MORE...' GROUND WITNESSES OBSERVED A MAN PARACHUTE FROM AN AIRPLANE IN THE AREA AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT. THE PILOT'S BODY WAS FOUND ON DECEMBER 21, 1994.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

THE PILOT'S INTENTIONAL DECISION TO ABANDON THE AIRPLANE AND ALLOW IT TO FLY UNATTENDED.

I reckon his wife caught up with him

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Didn't Cessna loose a pair do Skycatchers to get the skycrasher moniker?

Yup, both in spin testing.

I assume the skycatcher incident is this?
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20081004X11739&key=1

That was the first one.

Did they modify the characteristics after that? Especially b/c the brs seems to have failed as well. concerning to me without knowing the rest of the story.

They made changes after both accidents. The problem with the BRS failure on the first one was the way they had mounted the BRS in the airplane - As I recall, it was on the floor of the baggage compartment, and after the rocket went out the back window, the spinning airplane severed the chute's cords. I saw the chase video - The rocket went spinning around after exiting the plane. Freaky. Then you see the door open and the pilot get out.

In the second spin accident, the BRS chute worked (it's mounted in a different location now) and the pilot rode it to the ground, sustaining some injuries - Dislocated ribs, a couple broken bones, etc.

 

[tonycondon]

In the second spin accident, the BRS chute worked (it's mounted in a different location now) and the pilot rode it to the ground, sustaining some injuries - Dislocated ribs, a couple broken bones, etc.

If I remember right it was pretty windy that day and the plane got dragged quite a ways after touchdown, ended up in a fenceline.

 

[jesse]

Am I the only one that would be less scared of jumping out with a parachute versus riding a BRS?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Am I the only one that would be less scared of jumping out with a parachute versus riding a BRS?

No. The landing would be a helluva lot easier on you if you bailed.

 

[tonycondon]

tough call, using the surrounding airplane structure to absorb landing energy, or your legs...

 

[Skylane81E]

Depends, I'd rather ride a cirrus down under canopy than leap my rookie jumper ass out of it with a parachute. If I was an experienced sky diver I would probably have a different opinion.

 

[denverpilot]

No one ever figured out why Art Scholl didn't bail, right?

 

[Jaybird180]

No one ever figured out why Art Scholl didn't bail, right?

Is there any footage of the accident? I have the TopGun DVD set and they talk about it, but I didn't watch all of if to see if they put the footage on that set.

 

[Fearless Tower]

No one ever figured out why Art Scholl didn't bail, right?

I may be imagining this, but I seem to recall that he was in an inverted flat spin. I suspect that he was simply unable to get out. He did make at least one radio transmission indicating he was in trouble on the way down.

 

[gismo]

I may be imagining this, but I seem to recall that he was in an inverted flat spin. I suspect that he was simply unable to get out. He did make at least one radio transmission indicating he was in trouble on the way down.

I'll bet he didn't say "I'm in a flat spin, I'm heading out to sea".

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'll bet he didn't say "I'm in a flat spin, I'm heading out to sea".

Agreed!

Found it...it WAS an inverted flat spin:

AFTER COMPLETING AN UPRIGHT SPIN OVER THE PACIFIC OCEAN DURING THE FILMING OF A MOVIE VIEWED FROM THE SPINNING ACFT, THE PLT CLIMBED HIS ACFT BACK TO THE ENTRY ALT AND ENTERED A FLAT INVERTED SPIN. THE ACFT WAS OBSERVED TO SPIN THROUGH ITS RECOVERY ALT AT WHICH THE TIME PLT RADIOED ' I HAVE A PROBLEM, I HAVE A REAL PROBLEM.' NEITHER THE PLT NOR THE ACFT WERE RECOVERED.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=39520

I'm just venturing to speculate that it would be dang hard to get out of the the airplane in that condition.

 

[Jaybird180]

Why was he spinning to film a movie about F-14s? That part still escapes me.

 

[whifferdill]

I may be imagining this, but I seem to recall that he was in an inverted flat spin. I suspect that he was simply unable to get out. He did make at least one radio transmission indicating he was in trouble on the way down.

He made more than one transmission, and had plenty of time to get out if he had been wearing a chute. I suspect he was not. He didn't wear one when flying airshows. There's nothing about an inverted flat spin that would make it especially difficult to get out. Open the canopy, release your lap belt, and gravity will extract you from the airplane.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Open the canopy, release your lap belt, and gravity will extract you from the airplane.

Not having done one, what would you estimate the vertical speed would be. If you are inverted, you would have to overcome that to get out and clear of the airplane.

 

[JimG.]

so that's why none of those flight instructors ever wanted to do deep stalls in my bonanza during my biennials…

As soon as that stall warning even chirped, they'd tell me… “that's good”

 

[whifferdill]

Not having done one, what would you estimate the vertical speed would be. If you are inverted, you would have to overcome that to get out and clear of the airplane.

Never paid attention to vertical speed, but all the inverted flat spins I've done, and all the ones you will likely ever see (that have a safe ending), will be done with lots of power. Even for power-off spins, the descent rate is fairly low (relatively speaking), and it's a steady state. Let's say 4000'/min. descent rate for a light plane. That's 45 mph. If you bail, your body will be subject to the 32ft/sec^2 gravitational acceleration, and you'll separate from the plane fairly quickly. It only takes a few seconds for skydivers to reach ~120 mph terminal velocity.