Understanding maintenance cost?

pigpenracing said:
Long story short....
The more advanced and the more expensive the airplane is the more it will cost when it breaks....
Stick with a 182 or Bonanza and stuff stays pretty basic. Not sure why your buddy spends so much maintaining the Cirrus? They must see him coming. Find a good honest mechanic! My local mechanic charges $600 to annual a 172 and $800 to annual a Bonanza. Yes it will be more if problems come up but most annuals stay around that mark.
If you buy and own a plane yourself why put up a maintenance pot??? If something breaks deal with it then. If I had to pay myself everytime I fly one of my four airplanes I would not be flying... That is just stupid. Its like renting your own airplane. Do you put $500 in a pot each time you drive your car 1000 miles? Half the people you get comments from here have never owned a plane and know nothing. They just like to talk.
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Once I actually take the plunge, I'll probably manage maintenance as you describe, but that's not my immediate concern. To borrow your auto example, there was a time when a luxury car buyer could choose between Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar - with huge differences in quality and maintenance cost. I'm just trying to make sure I don't end up with the 1987 Audi 5000...
 
Tom-D said:
I corrected my typing Mistake, it's Type Certificate & Data Sheet.
Most new aircraft (newer) aircraft certified under FAR part 21 will have them, most of the older CAR 3 certified will not..

now know there are exceptions.
I forget when it started, (I'm too lazy to look it up) but all new STC must have Instructions for Continued airworthiness included in the instructions. Same for field approvals.
Depending upon equipment installed you may have ICAs to comply with on appliances at annual time on any aircraft.
The one most common ,, Batteries. all new batteries come with ICAs in a little booklet on how to test at EVERY annual or inspections required in part 91.
Next most common one is the prop, New props come with an owner's manual that contain the ICAs for that make and model.
Buying a new Aircraft? best check for mandatory maintenance.
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Wouldn't that be FAR Part 23? I always remembered Part 21 as the part dealing with appliances and products (PMA stuff)
 
mtuomi said:
Just to give an example of factory parts prices and where you can "save". The wingtip light covers for a Cessna (so just the hand-sized piece of metal that shields the nav light) costs $493 each. Guess what a shop quoted me for wingtip strobe light install... Yep. $1,133.90 in parts (2*493 and they mark them up by 15%), and almost $500 in labor. (I've got the strobe parts).

I bought a pair of covers for $50, and my A&P charged me $180 for the labor. So instead of $1700, I paid $250 (I paid for lunch too). That's how bad aircraft maintenance can be, if you aren't actively involved in it. And that's how cheap it can be, if you are.
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used parts?
 
zodiacflyguy said:
we're not gonna start that again are we? :D
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Pick which subject you want to talk about, you want to talk appliances or certifying the whole aircraft?
21
21.1 to 21.700
CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND ARTICLES
23
23.1 to 23.1589
AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES

Or would like to discuss when ICAs apply.
Or if you need to comply with appliances ICAs that need be be done at annual?

Or your final choice, let the thread wander off in a new direction?
 
mtuomi said:
Yes, the wingtip covers were used parts. They are just two small pieces of aluminum. The factory price is insane.
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stuff like that is my argument that it's not liability causing the prices to be sky high, it's the certification process.
 
Vince R said:
So how do mere newbies learn this skill, other than trial and error?
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You find your Mechanic prior to buying, then have him help with your buying process.
I've done this with lots of new aviators, Helping during the process, teaching the proper care and feeding of the new aircraft. Always with this thought in mind, a smart buyer/owner is my Best customer.
 
Tom-D said:
Pick which subject you want to talk about, you want to talk appliances or certifying the whole aircraft?
21
21.1 to 21.700
CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND ARTICLES
23
23.1 to 23.1589
AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES

Or would like to discuss when ICAs apply.
Or if you need to comply with appliances ICAs that need be be done at annual?

Or your final choice, let the thread wander off in a new direction?
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Nah, I referenced part 23 because it seemed we were talking about the aircraft as a whole, I know the A/C is certified under part 21 as an administrative exercise, (type/airworthiness certificates and all) but the standard the A/C itself has to meet to BE certified are found in part 23.... Potayto/Potahto ya know? I had just never seen anyone refer to an aircraft certified under part 21, even if it is technically correct. as far as thread drift.... my comment regard starting this again were about the ****ing match a few folks on this board seem to take great delight in, sometimes y'all sound like an old married couple.
 
zodiacflyguy said:
Nah, I referenced part 23 because it seemed we were talking about the aircraft as a whole, I know the A/C is certified under part 21 as an administrative exercise, (type/airworthiness certificates and all) but the standard the A/C itself has to meet to BE certified are found in part 23.... Potayto/Potahto ya know? I had just never seen anyone refer to an aircraft certified under part 21, even if it is technically correct. as far as thread drift.... my comment regard starting this again were about the ****ing match a few folks on this board seem to take great delight in, sometimes y'all sound like an old married couple.
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What ever suits ya I guess. but it all boils down to which lawyers get their way.
 
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midcap said:
stuff like that is my argument that it's not liability causing the prices to be sky high, it's the certification process.
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kinda both... I work in experimentals at times, and I have had issues buying engine parts going into an alternate powerplant. When the parts house suspects it may be for an aircraft they will refuse the sale. scared of the liability I guess. And remember, liability was one of the big reasons Cessna stopped making piston planes for a while.
 
"Just like anything. You can tell if a airplane is taken care of and well maintained. If the airplane you look at is dirty and paint is faded it is probably a 1987 Audi :)
I never get a prebuy done because it is a waste of money most the time. Everyone has a different opinion on nice. Ever hear one mans junk is another mans treasure? I look at airplanes I buy on my own. If I have to think about it I walk away.... If I walk in the hangar and the airplane is waxed top to bottom, engine looks so clean you can eat off of it and the belly does not have a drop of oil on it you can probably say its good and well maintained. If there are 3 months worth of bugs on the wings it is probably crap. If someone is to lazy to wipe bugs off each flight they are probably to lazy to keep the rest of the plane in top notch condition.
There are lots of good planes out there and also lots of junk.
By your post I think you are looking for something pretty new and expensive so that pretty much rules the old junk out."

And I am on the other end of the scale. I don't care about "lipstick on a pig". I want to see how the plane has REALLY been taken care of. Between the logbooks and my flashlight and mirror, I can get a pretty good sense of how life has been for a plane. A friend looked at several Cherokees and then this 1961 160 came along. He was worried about the paint being faded and the dated interior. I was more interested to see that the wing spar inspection had been done and the engine was virtually new with a complete Tanis preheat system installed and the radios were new-ish.
 
JAWS said:
"Just like anything. You can tell if a airplane is taken care of and well maintained. If the airplane you look at is dirty and paint is faded it is probably a 1987 Audi :)
I never get a prebuy done because it is a waste of money most the time. Everyone has a different opinion on nice. Ever hear one mans junk is another mans treasure? I look at airplanes I buy on my own. If I have to think about it I walk away.... If I walk in the hangar and the airplane is waxed top to bottom, engine looks so clean you can eat off of it and the belly does not have a drop of oil on it you can probably say its good and well maintained. If there are 3 months worth of bugs on the wings it is probably crap. If someone is to lazy to wipe bugs off each flight they are probably to lazy to keep the rest of the plane in top notch condition.
There are lots of good planes out there and also lots of junk.
By your post I think you are looking for something pretty new and expensive so that pretty much rules the old junk out."

And I am on the other end of the scale. I don't care about "lipstick on a pig". I want to see how the plane has REALLY been taken care of. Between the logbooks and my flashlight and mirror, I can get a pretty good sense of how life has been for a plane. A friend looked at several Cherokees and then this 1961 160 came along. He was worried about the paint being faded and the dated interior. I was more interested to see that the wing spar inspection had been done and the engine was virtually new with a complete Tanis preheat system installed and the radios were new-ish.
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I take it you don't buy projects. :)
 
pigpenracing said:
Just like anything. You can tell if a airplane is taken care of and well maintained. If the airplane you look at is dirty and paint is faded it is probably a 1987 Audi :)
I never get a prebuy done because it is a waste of money most the time. Everyone has a different opinion on nice. Ever hear one mans junk is another mans treasure? I look at airplanes I buy on my own. If I have to think about it I walk away.... If I walk in the hangar and the airplane is waxed top to bottom, engine looks so clean you can eat off of it and the belly does not have a drop of oil on it you can probably say its good and well maintained. If there are 3 months worth of bugs on the wings it is probably crap. If someone is to lazy to wipe bugs off each flight they are probably to lazy to keep the rest of the plane in top notch condition.
There are lots of good planes out there and also lots of junk.
By your post I think you are looking for something pretty new and expensive so that pretty much rules the old junk out.
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It also depends on the use. I fly my C150 50-60 hours per month. If I would be waxing and washing it after every flight, I wouldn't have time to fly it!
It gets a professional wash once a month (plus the quick wipe every now and then). I'd argue my plane is in better mechanical shape than a plane that's been washed daily but never flown.
 
Vince R said:
So how do mere newbies learn this skill, other than trial and error?
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Trial and error not required. Leverage your cohorts...

By joining a type club and educating yourself on issues as they arise, or by spending the time learning your plane and its common failure points. I am a member of Cardinal Flyers Online, the type club for Cardinals, and when (not if) I have a problem, I will, using the CFO, research and learn the particular broken system, learn about the cheapest source for possible parts needed, or learn the tricks or best methods used to fix the problem. Then, I can fix it myself with A&P supervision, or pay a trusted A&P to do the fix. The other option - bring it to an A&P without bothering to educate yourself or to research the A&P can make for very high maintenance costs. And this is fine for some, but if you are in this camp you should probably quit bitching about high maintenance costs.
 
Vince R said:
Once I actually take the plunge, I'll probably manage maintenance as you describe, but that's not my immediate concern. To borrow your auto example, there was a time when a luxury car buyer could choose between Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar - with huge differences in quality and maintenance cost. I'm just trying to make sure I don't end up with the 1987 Audi 5000...
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Or a 1995 Mercedes S500. Of course the S500 was one of the least expensive luxury sedans that I've ever owned. But you need to want to do most of your own mx, and know what is what about it going in. I bought the vehicle knowing that the wiring was insulated with biodegradable insulation, and may require a new harness in the future.
But back to airplanes; I bought a doggy little Cherokee, With plans going in, that I was going to immediately do a few upgrades. I could have flown it for a year first, but decided to start right away with the upgrades. End result is this: Had I simply dropped it off and said "call me when yer done." It would have cost about double what it's worth after it was finished. But, having a wife who knows that if I'm at the airport I'm not out getting in trouble, so I did all the work, over several months, under the supervision of an A&P/IA, and then worked for him for a week while on vacation, to cover the cost of his bill. I ended up with a pretty nice Cherokee, and have in it a bit less that what it's worth. With no worries about anything jumping up to bite me when it goes down for annual next month.
 
mtuomi said:
Just to give an example of factory parts prices and where you can "save". The wingtip light covers for a Cessna (so just the hand-sized piece of metal that shields the nav light) costs $493 each. Guess what a shop quoted me for wingtip strobe light install... Yep. $1,133.90 in parts (2*493 and they mark them up by 15%), and almost $500 in labor. (I've got the strobe parts).

I bought a pair of covers for $50, and my A&P charged me $180 for the labor. So instead of $1700, I paid $250 (I paid for lunch too). That's how bad aircraft maintenance can be, if you aren't actively involved in it. And that's how cheap it can be, if you are.
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Hm....I dinged the red plastic light cover on the wing of my cherokee. New plastic cover cost $60 at Univair, I unscrewed the lamp unit, replaced the plastic cover. Total cost: $60.

Gotta love the low cost, really stupid to work on cherokee.
 
pigpenracing said:
Just like anything. You can tell if a airplane is taken care of and well maintained. If the airplane you look at is dirty and paint is faded it is probably a 1987 Audi :)
I never get a prebuy done because it is a waste of money most the time. Everyone has a different opinion on nice. Ever hear one mans junk is another mans treasure? I look at airplanes I buy on my own. If I have to think about it I walk away.... If I walk in the hangar and the airplane is waxed top to bottom, engine looks so clean you can eat off of it and the belly does not have a drop of oil on it you can probably say its good and well maintained. If there are 3 months worth of bugs on the wings it is probably crap. If someone is to lazy to wipe bugs off each flight they are probably to lazy to keep the rest of the plane in top notch condition.
There are lots of good planes out there and also lots of junk.
By your post I think you are looking for something pretty new and expensive so that pretty much rules the old junk out.
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That's a horrible way to determine an aircraft's condition. The very first thing any seller or broker does, is pay someone to clean the aircraft.

If you don't crack the logs and know what you're looking at or have someone who does, do so, you're crazy.

Pretty paint covers up all sorts of mechanical sins.
 
pigpenracing said:
Well maybe I know what I am looking at. I look at and buy top quality airplanes, not out looking at cheap junk with a million hours. I can for sure tell how a airplane was kept and maintained by first sight. Here is a example of a 140 I just bought. You think its junk and not maintained? View attachment 53609 View attachment 53610 View attachment 53611 View attachment 53612
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You probably do.

None of the items you listed are what you looked at to figure out you were looking at a well maintained airplane.

I have no idea if it's junk.

When was the award and what's been done to it since then? Let's look over the logs. ;)

Last I checked, as PIC I can't substitute "won an award" for "airworthy". (Grin...)
 
pigpenracing said:
Here are a few more JUNKERS I bought that just had nice paint.View attachment 53613 View attachment 53614 View attachment 53615 View attachment 53616 View attachment 53617
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Still wasn't the paint you knew to look at that told you they were properly maintained. And no IA would ever trust paint.

Nice looking planes, no doubt. Doesn't matter how many photos of nice planes you post, you and I both know looking at paint is still not how you check for proper maintenance.

Think I mentioned recently I know a brilliant older guy who has a Cherokee 140 that has much of the paint missing. The airplane is mechanically flawless and he flies it all up and down the east coast, regularly. He just doesn't give a crap about the paint.

Remember, I worked for a shyster scumbag airplane broker once. (Young and stupid and he never paid me my commissions, so I was gone in a month, it was a part time job cold calling owners so he could try to rip them off, anyway...) Clean carpet and polished paint was his game. He knew suckers would fall for it. Pilots love paint.
 
denverpilot said:
That's a horrible way to determine an aircraft's condition. The very first thing any seller or broker does, is pay someone to clean the aircraft.

If you don't crack the logs and know what you're looking at or have someone who does, do so, you're crazy.

Pretty paint covers up all sorts of mechanical sins.
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(*shudder*)
remembering Baron Thomas.
 
midcap said:
Why are the Cirrus that much more in Mx costs?
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Because they can?

Two back to back $25K annuals on any single is out of the norm.

BTW, you need to separate the "annual" inspection cost and resulting discrepancies, and whether or not other maintenance costs are spread over a year. Some owners include "improvements" in the "annual" number which skews the number high.

If I'm going to spend $25K/yr on maintenance , I'm getting a pressurized twin, not a common single.
 
James331 said:
Putting $$ aside for Mx or engine reserves is about as effective as reading tea leaves to judge the weather.

For me, I average a little under 2k per annual, and normally that also invloves me polishing something, installing some toys, balancing something, or other non essential stuff, this is in a complex 300HP IFR plane.

The big factors, being mechanically savy, doing owner MX, knowing how YOUR plane runs pres, temp etc and nipping any odd stuff/snags in the bud before they become expensive problems, owner assist annuals, buying your own parts, being part of owner groups, and using a APIA, not a FBO, this will result in a better kept plane for way less money.
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What's your time worth?
 
paflyer said:
What's your time worth?
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Not that much, it's like a day and a half out of my life, it's fun, shoot the airplane chit with some airplane guys while wrenching on my plane, saves me thousands, and more over keeps me very in tune with the machine I trust my life with.

So what's your life worth?
 
Vince R said:
In my friend's case, there were a few culprits. One of the bigger was that his aircraft is an Avidyne, and his PFD and MFD both suddenly failed and required replacement. QUOTE]
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Avidyne less reliable?
 
I can only dream that my A&P will trust me too much.
I see so much substandard work these days it makes me shudder. Even by the professionals.
 
Well it helps that I was a jet engine mechanic for ten years. I told him that one of his safeties on my prop wasn't tight enough early on in our owner/mechanic relationship and he told me to go ahead and re-do it. After that and many other things he's observed me do later, he gives me a lot of credit. BUT I know my limitations and my ignorance. (translation: I know what I don't know and will not hesitate to ask for assistance) I insist he inspects my work prior to signing anything off.
 
Personally the Idea of putting $ away for every flight hour is outstanding. On the same note putting $ away for the big ticket items such as an engine overhaul is also needed. Two separate savings plans in one account. You may end up putting 25 $/hr or more into the account but that's your nest egg to cover these expenses.

Engine management and care can go a long way in lower costs. Run the engine correctly, don't go from low rpm to full throttle in 2 seconds. Don't go from cruse rpm to low rpm for descents. Find an A&P who is willing to work with you, buy the parts books (IPB) and the maintenance manuals. Read them, ask questions and learn how to pamper your plane maintenance wise and operation wise.

Good luck and have fun. My small baby Beech, has run me an average of 3500 $/yr for 20 years some years lower some higher. But I do my own maintenance...:)
 
AKBill said:
Run the engine correctly, don't go from low rpm to full throttle in 2 seconds. Don't go from cruse rpm to low rpm for descents.
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I agree 100%.... but man, my CFI complains all the time how slow I am on the throttle. He wants me to go full throttle right away. We are typically on 3-5k ft. runways and the extra couple seconds never seems to be a concern for me. If it were, I'd go ahead and short field it to start with. Then on final if I'm a little high, he'll either pull it, or tell me to pull it all the way back.
Again, if I ease it back, he starts barking -all the way -all the way.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I agree 100%.... but man, my CFI complains all the time how slow I am on the throttle. He wants me to go full throttle right away. We are typically on 3-5k ft. runways and the extra couple seconds never seems to be a concern for me. If it were, I'd go ahead and short field it to start with. Then on final if I'm a little high, he'll either pull it, or tell me to pull it all the way back.
Again, if I ease it back, he starts barking -all the way -all the way.
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I do what you do. Some pilots have an intuitive feel for the mechanicals of the machine, and some don't. ;)

Much like my getting into Mrs. GRG55's daily driver after an extended absence and asking her "When did it start making that noise?". The now predictably reliable answer is always "What noise?". :sigh:
 
Ha ha...yessir. I get the same answer from my daughters on their cars.

I don't mind full throttle or a quick pull back for practicing emergency procedures, but there is just no reason for it to be standard operation....and definite reasons for it not to be.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I agree 100%.... but man, my CFI complains all the time how slow I am on the throttle. He wants me to go full throttle right away. We are typically on 3-5k ft. runways and the extra couple seconds never seems to be a concern for me. If it were, I'd go ahead and short field it to start with. Then on final if I'm a little high, he'll either pull it, or tell me to pull it all the way back.
Again, if I ease it back, he starts barking -all the way -all the way.
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We aren't there to see how slow or fast you really are, but if it's too slow, the CFI may be "encouraging" you to put the aircraft exactly where you want it "right now".

It's possible to make "quick-enough" power changes while still being smooth about it.

What you think is "a little high" might be VERY high. Does your runway you usually land on have a PAPI or VASI? What does it say?

Or, the CFI might just be teaching you to horse the airplane around, which of course, isn't necessary or desired either.

Remember the runway length doesn't matter in your decision about where to land, technically you're shooting for a controlled touchdown at a *specific* spot. Not a range. Not a distance. A SPOT. Put the aircraft where you want it.

Just because the ACS says you have a fudge factor doesn't mean you get to use it. It's there for nerves on checkride day, but your personal goal should be exactly on your spot. The ACS is the MINIMUM standard. You can do better. And always should try to.

Accuracy counts in airmanship.

There's the "speech". Ha. Now go do it. Whatever it takes on the throttle and all the flight controls, you're PIC. Make it happen. :)
 
I'm not really that slow. I just don't like to jam it to the firewall in one quick move.
And I do usually aim for, and hit a specific spot.

heh, re-reading that from my girlfriends perspective she would- agree, disagree, disagree.
 
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