Understanding Engineers

GCA319 said:
I had another guy working towards his private that was struggling with crosswind landings. He kept asking exactly how much rudder and aileron was needed to point the airplane down the centerline with no drift. My answer? Whatever it takes. I finally told him to forget about the crosswind and just do whatever it takes to touch down with the nose straight down the centerline and no drift and the rest will come together. He was making very good crosswind landings after that.
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Exact same thing by my first CFI. Light bulb went on and worked ever since. LOL!
 
Engineers are easy to understand once you figure out we are usually correct.
 
Never argue with an engineer.

It is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After awhile, you realize that the pig loves it!
 
GCA319 said:
I had another guy working towards his private that was struggling with crosswind landings. He kept asking exactly how much rudder and aileron was needed to point the airplane down the centerline with no drift. My answer? Whatever it takes. I finally told him to forget about the crosswind and just do whatever it takes to touch down with the nose straight down the centerline and no drift and the rest will come together. He was making very good crosswind landings after that.
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"Oh, it's just three feedback loops? Why didn't you say so?"
 
[Sorry John's' - I heard it this way]


A man was teaching his son the difference between engineering and mathematics.

He had beautiful and desirable woman remove all of her clothes and he had a mathematician and an engineer in the room. He told them the rules were that they could halve the distance to the woman with each step and the first one to reach her could have his way with her.

The mathematician walked away in disgust and disappointment while the engineer began the journey, eventually grasping the woman in his arms and carrying her off.

"Dad, why did that guy just walk away?"

"You see son, the mathematician knows that no matter how hard he tries, if he keeps halving the distance he can never get there, whereas the engineer knows he can get close enough . ..
 
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"It's not a 3 degree glideslope, only 2.7325 degrees..."

As one of my IFR students who was an engineer told me.

I'm thinking it's okay, just keep the needle centered.
 
us AAirways said:
"It's not a 3 degree glideslope, only 2.7325 degrees..."

As one of my IFR students who was an engineer told me.

I'm thinking it's okay, just keep the needle centered.
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Not a very good engineer.

I really doubt the altitude is known to 5 figures, and the range is right out. And it makes no operational difference if it's 3 deg or 2.7.

I used to mark partial credit at best when a student would combine 2-3 figure measurements and come up with 10 figure answers, as it shows poor understanding of uncertainty.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a very good engineer.

I really doubt the altitude is known to 5 figures, and the range is right out. And it makes no operational difference if it's 3 deg or 2.7.

I used to mark partial credit at best when a student would combine 2-3 figure measurements and come up with 10 figure answers, as it shows poor understanding of uncertainty.
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I blame it on calculators.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a very good engineer.

I really doubt the altitude is known to 5 figures, and the range is right out. And it makes no operational difference if it's 3 deg or 2.7.

I used to mark partial credit at best when a student would combine 2-3 figure measurements and come up with 10 figure answers, as it shows poor understanding of uncertainty.
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The best engineers understand what's reasonable and what isn't, before they determine the answer to the nth degree.

Keeps me alive.
 
us AAirways said:
"It's not a 3 degree glideslope, only 2.7325 degrees..."

As one of my IFR students who was an engineer told me.

I'm thinking it's okay, just keep the needle centered.
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Expanding on what Makg said, it's a 3 degree glideslope when expressed to one significant figure. Engineers are supposed to understand rounding. Now, if he had said "It's not a 3.0000 degree glideslope, only 2.7325 degrees...," that would have been a correct comparision.

I'm guessing that he didn't really consider that to be a significant difference, however.

By the way, I notice that my Jepp charts express glideslope angles to three significant figures.
 
My experience with Engineers in the residential /commercial construction field is downright scary.... They are over engineering structures to such a great extent to cover their asses it has made most new construction 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars higher in costs...

They have designed stuff soooooooo friggin rigid with all the steel posts, beams, columns, etc and all the joint fasteners are so complex and stiff that I am sure when a decent earthquake hits, all the older structures will flex, bend and be pliable enough to withstand the movement, like they have for decades.. These "new and improved engineered" buildings are so rigid they will fracture and fail.... It is like Boeing making wings that don't flex at all and hope they will stand up to bending moments... It ain't gonna happen.:no:..

Problem is, till we have a 7.5 or so quake, their concept seems logical to all the building officials and plan reviewers who issue building permits...


Time and mother earth will separate the BS from reality... IMHO..
 
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I'm not an inspector or an engineer, but I'm pretty sure flexing is basic stuff understood by engineers and building inspectors / permitting departments.
 
Captain said:
I'm not an inspector or an engineer, but I'm pretty sure flexing is basic stuff understood by engineers and building inspectors / permitting departments.
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Time will tell.....

Besides 99.9% of the plan reviewers and building officials are NOT degree holding engineers.. They have to approve the plans that have a engineering STAMP on them... In fact, they CANNOT deny any calculations used to determine the safety, strength or design criteria of stamped plans..:no:
 
Perhaps there are some deficiencies in the earthquake safety codes in your state?
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a very good engineer.

I really doubt the altitude is known to 5 figures, and the range is right out. And it makes no operational difference if it's 3 deg or 2.7.

I used to mark partial credit at best when a student would combine 2-3 figure measurements and come up with 10 figure answers, as it shows poor understanding of uncertainty.
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I blame it on calculators.
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denverpilot said:
Definitely need to go back to slide rules. Have to think about the decimal placement harder. ;)
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There you go. I love telling young engineers that slide rule accuracy is all I need. The blank looks are priceless. :D
 
Captain said:
I'm not an inspector or an engineer, but I'm pretty sure flexing is basic stuff understood by engineers and building inspectors / permitting departments.
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You'd be surprised then. You have all of the necessary requirements to be a building inspector in Colorado. Most commercial ones are moonlighting real estate agents without a clue.

The one hired by our house buyers wrote up this long non-detailed but quite emotional list of things he thought were wrong with the electrical system of the house. I knew what he found. One string wired with hot and neutral reversed by the licensed electrician in the detached garage. I'd been meaning to swap it after I found it.

Decided it's smarter to have a professional's signature in a sale. Different electrician the buyer agrees to, shows up and calls me from the house, "I swapped that garage circuit in the first plug. Do you have any idea what this other stuff is that this idiot wrote up?" Ha. Sorry, nope. "Well there isn't anything else here. $75 and I'll write up a scathing note saying this idiot wasted my time." Up to you, man. Thanks for swapping that circuit!

The retired PE on our HOA has more qualifications than our county inspectors do. He teaches them things.
 
N801BH said:
My experience with Engineers in the residential /commercial construction field is downright scary.... They are over engineering structures to such a great extent to cover their asses it has made most new construction 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars higher in costs...

They have designed stuff soooooooo friggin rigid with all the steel posts, beams, columns, etc and all the joint fasteners are so complex and stiff that I am sure when a decent earthquake hits, all the older structures will flex, bend and be pliable enough to withstand the movement, like they have for decades.. These "new and improved engineered" buildings are so rigid they will fracture and fail.... It is like Boeing making wings that don't flex at all and hope they will stand up to bending moments... It ain't gonna happen.:no:..

Problem is, till we have a 7.5 or so quake, their concept seems logical to all the building officials and plan reviewers who issue building permits...


Time and mother earth will separate the BS from reality... IMHO..
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My experience is that most newer engineered items (at least in my field) are much more precise and lighter weight because of better means of calculating stresses, etc. Some things are heavier, but that's because the old ones weren't heavy enough.

Of course I'm not in construction, but I've typically heard that, at least in New York with all the skyscrapers.
 
No offense but how would you know?

N801BH said:
My experience with Engineers in the residential /commercial construction field is downright scary.... They are over engineering structures to such a great extent to cover their asses it has made most new construction 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars higher in costs...

They have designed stuff soooooooo friggin rigid with all the steel posts, beams, columns, etc and all the joint fasteners are so complex and stiff that I am sure when a decent earthquake hits, all the older structures will flex, bend and be pliable enough to withstand the movement, like they have for decades.. These "new and improved engineered" buildings are so rigid they will fracture and fail.... It is like Boeing making wings that don't flex at all and hope they will stand up to bending moments... It ain't gonna happen.:no:..

Problem is, till we have a 7.5 or so quake, their concept seems logical to all the building officials and plan reviewers who issue building permits...


Time and mother earth will separate the BS from reality... IMHO..
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l8evator said:
I just spoke to my daughter tonight, minutes after she finished writing the PE exam. She was exhausted and uncertain if she passed, but it went better than she feared it would. She was going to dinner with friends to celebrate . . . at Red Robin for "clucks and fries". I am pretty certain she is qualified to be a professional engineer if she sees that as a celebration dinner.

Scott
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I got my PE many years ago. It's not a fun test. I hope she passed.
 
N801BH said:
Time and mother earth will separate the BS from reality... IMHO..
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It already has. I know you have this deep seated predudice against California, but there have been a few earthquakes here of that magnitude, and quite a bit of study about what works and what doesn't.

And you can't necessarily know by looking at it. Too flexible can cause failures, too.

And it's not like you can't study materials and techniques on a shake table.
 
My PE Exam was a two day affair, first day general engineering, math, science and the second day in your specific field. 8 hours each day with a strict time limit. The second part was a report submitted 4 years later covering a specific engineering project showing your ability to apply the "book learning".

Fortunately, my Co-Op job had earned me a Journeyman Rating as a Machinist so I had a fall back in case this engineering thing didn't work out. :D

Cheers
 
David said:
No offense but how would you know?
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No offense taken sir..... Spending millions of dollars with people who have a piece of paper in a frame on their wall does NOT guarantee a happy outcome.. Well, other then the fact the engineers have already cashed their checks and spent the money..:mad2:

I deal in reality and successful projects that don't fail...

Unlike these ENGINEERING failures....:yikes::hairraise::eek::mad2:

http://engineeringfailures.org/
 
N801BH said:
No offense taken sir..... Spending millions of dollars with people who have a piece of paper in a frame on their wall does NOT guarantee a happy outcome.. Well, other then the fact the engineers have already cashed their checks and spent the money..:mad2:

I deal in reality and successful projects that don't fail...

Unlike these ENGINEERING failures....:yikes::hairraise::eek::mad2:

http://engineeringfailures.org/
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No, but spending millions of dollars on a design made without that piece of paper makes an unhappy outcome considerably more likely.

You seem to think engineering is trivial. This means you have nothing useful at all to say about it.

Yes, mistakes happen; no one ever claimed otherwise. If you want to see how nonengineered structures fare in earthquakes, that's tested fairly regularly. Modest earthquakes have recently caused massive damage in Haiti and Afghanistan.

And I really doubt you have any projects anywhere near the scale in that website to substantiate your claim that your projects "don't fail." Just how many bridges have you designed?
 
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denverpilot said:
Definitely need to go back to slide rules. Have to think about the decimal placement harder. ;)
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Only have NDB approaches too.:D

All this fancy GPS, ILS, etc just makes people lazy.

Oh, and no automatic transmissions either, manuals only.

and

Back to DOS 2.0
 
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QUOTE=MAKG1;1295174]No, but spending millions of dollars on a design made without that piece of paper makes an unhappy outcome considerably more likely......
.......

And I really doubt you have any projects anywhere near the scale in that website to substantiate your claim that your projects "don't fail." Just how many bridges have you designed?[/QUOTE]


I ain't a rocket scientist, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.. BUT... Over the last 45 years I did

1- redesign the suspension on a stock Suzuki TS125 and turn it into a class winning state championship MX bike, and had to quit that venue when my knees gave out.

2- Got into alky hydro racing and built a one of a kind hull design and successfully campaigned that for a couple of years....

3- Built and designed my own engine dyno. Validated, calibarated and tested it to confirm repeatability to within .1%. Sold dyno time to some VERY big time players in the motorsports world. Sold it after a few years to Jasper Engines, when they started in Winston Cup/ NASCAR racing to fund my move to Jackson Hole.. They merged with Penske Racing and I heard it is still being utilized in their racing engine dept.

4- Up until a few years ago I designed ALL my customers structures working as a one person, class B commercial building contractor. I can gather specs for building materials just like a degrees engineer can and does to calculate stesses. loads, deflection, bending moments, elasticity and all other dynamics involved in products used in the construction of a structure. Then after the fiasco of hurricane Andrew, most if not all building depts around the country put in place requirements that ALL plans submitted HAD to have an engineering stamp on it.. Not that there was any failures associated with that particular event, but to shield each building dept from liability and pass that burden on the engineering firm that stamps the plans. It was a quick and easy way to evade liability but led to the end of small but competent contractors doing in-house design work..:mad2:

5- Built a Zenith 801 STOL kit plane and during my construction, I engineered various details of all of the components in it to accept 3 times more horsepower in it then the original engineer /designer intended.. That is NOT 3% more. or 30% more.... It is 300% more horsepower... Now......... 500+ hours and 100,000 miles on that project, it is still a viable proof of concept prototype and to this day is totally and completely airworthy... I would have flown it this afternoon if the winds from the approaching winter blizzard had not started to blow.

In each of MY engineering projects ,I did NOT expose other human beings to my designs and calculations.. I strapped my own ASS in those creations and validated, tested and documented data from them to add to my lifetime gathering of ongoing personal knowledge...

Just in the last few weeks I have entered into a new venture since I am a prototype machinist and was asked to fabricate a landing gear lift pad for Cessna CJ-4 Citation jets....... I LOVE machining and making metal chips from my in house DRO milling machine and lathe while using billet 6061-T655 Aluminum alloy stock gives me great pleasure... My customers are not small time players , but VERY smart end users.......... Attached are pics of my latest items...

Ps... So for....... I have done all this in my life WITHOUT a small piece of paper mounted in a cheap frame that is hanging on my wall displaying my "dick is bigger then the next guys"...:no:;).....

Rant off.... Unless you want to take it to the next level sir...

More pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/89759054@N07/
 

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Actually, Andrew proved the validity of those joint reinforcements. In Homestead that neighborhood that turned to rubble while everything else around it stood? The contractor left out the straps, same ones that California uses in its earthquake code. I went through 3 major earthquakes in CA and a bunch of minor ones. The buildings with the straps fare just fine.
 
Henning said:
Screw that, back to the Airway Beacons, don't need no steenkin Marconi sets...
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Woa man it's Telsa sets. :rofl:

My roommate is a physics engineer and living with him is always an interesting time. Never ask him how to solve a basic math question. You will get a lecture and a paper....
 
N801BH said:
[


I ain't a rocket scientist, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.. BUT... Over the last 45 years I did

1- redesign the suspension on a stock Suzuki TS125 and turn it into a class winning state championship MX bike, and had to quit that venue when my knees gave out.

2- Got into alky hydro racing and built a one of a kind hull design and successfully campaigned that for a couple of years....

3- Built and designed my own engine dyno. Validated, calibarated and tested it to confirm repeatability to within .1%. Sold dyno time to some VERY big time players in the motorsports world. Sold it after a few years to Jasper Engines, when they started in Winston Cup/ NASCAR racing to fund my move to Jackson Hole.. They merged with Penske Racing and I heard it is still being utilized in their racing engine dept.

4- Up until a few years ago I designed ALL my customers structures working as a one person, class B commercial building contractor. I can gather specs for building materials just like a degrees engineer can and does to calculate stesses. loads, deflection, bending moments, elasticity and all other dynamics involved in products used in the construction of a structure. Then after the fiasco of hurricane Andrew, most if not all building depts around the country put in place requirements that ALL plans submitted HAD to have an engineering stamp on it.. Not that there was any failures associated with that particular event, but to shield each building dept from liability and pass that burden on the engineering firm that stamps the plans. It was a quick and easy way to evade liability but led to the end of small but competent contractors doing in-house design work..:mad2:

5- Built a Zenith 801 STOL kit plane and during my construction, I engineered various details of all of the components in it to accept 3 times more horsepower in it then the original engineer /designer intended.. That is NOT 3% more. or 30% more.... It is 300% more horsepower... Now......... 500+ hours and 100,000 miles on that project, it is still a viable proof of concept prototype and to this day is totally and completely airworthy... I would have flown it this afternoon if the winds from the approaching winter blizzard had not started to blow.

In each of MY engineering projects ,I did NOT expose other human beings to my designs and calculations.. I strapped my own ASS in those creations and validated, tested and documented data from them to add to my lifetime gathering of ongoing personal knowledge...

Just in the last few weeks I have entered into a new venture since I am a prototype machinist and was asked to fabricate a landing gear lift pad for Cessna CJ-4 Citation jets....... I LOVE machining and making metal chips from my in house DRO milling machine and lathe while using billet 6061-T655 Aluminum alloy stock gives me great pleasure... My customers are not small time players , but VERY smart end users.......... Attached are pics of my latest items...

Ps... So for....... I have done all this in my life WITHOUT a small piece of paper mounted in a cheap frame that is hanging on my wall displaying my "dick is bigger then the next guys"...:no:;).....

Rant off.... Unless you want to take it to the next level sir...

More pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/89759054@N07/
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I think you did a fine job explaining how you have zero experience in the field you're claiming to be master of. None of that has a single thing to do with earthquake-tolerant structures.
 
cheap weenie said:
I think you did a fine job explaining how you have zero experience in the field you're claiming to be master of. None of that has a single thing to do with earthquake-tolerant structures.
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Other then the dozens of building I have designed and built and are still standing....... You are correct....;):D
 
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