UND Plane down in ND - 1 fatality

Zeldman said:
Mental illness runs deep and unfortunately sometimes doesn't surface until it is too late.
Click to expand...
Mental illness also has a number of exacerbating features. Depression often includes the symptom of pushing away people who want to help. (That's also a feature of many forms of emotional trauma.) Treatment results are hard to measure, unlike infections, cancer, and broken legs. Some forms are self-reinforcing when treated, such as bipolar people who take mood stabilizing medication but stop taking it when they are feeling happy, which leads to a deeper instability on the next southward swing.

We also stigmatize mental illness in many ways, even as we move past all the old stigmas about mental illness just being a weakness or even a choice. It's depressing to be around depressed people. Having a diagnosis for mental illness can hurt your career, social life, etc. Many, if not most, people dream of having a successful career and a smiling family. But if you're diagnosed as being schizophrenic, bipolar, or depressed, your perception is likely to be that your career options are limited and nobody will want to start a family with you.

So instead of seeking a diagnosis for your symptoms and a treatment for your illness like you would with an infection, cancer, or broken leg, people try to ignore or suppress their problems. And in many cases, they do so very convincingly for a very long time. And then they have a bad break-up, a career setback, or just a string of slightly gloomier than usual days, and their life is lost. Maybe it's lost to a quick end like happened this week, or maybe it's lost in a slower method like drug addiction or recklessness like drunk driving.

I hate all the social media posts that say things like "it's suicide prevention day, so don't forget to tell your friends not to commit suicide today!" This childish view of why people take their own lives does absolutely nothing to help anyone. It's at least as bad as people posting dirty jokes to fight cancer, and probably worse since nobody's cancer gets worse from reading about cancer awareness month and feeling like their friends and family don't really understand cancer.
 
iamtheari said:
I don’t know if it’s survivor bias talking, but I think that young folks don’t have the perspective that comes from climbing the mountain of life and being able to look down from the top, a perspective that reveals that every obstacle on the way was really not that big of a deal.
Click to expand...
Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...
 
This is extremely depressing. Awful.
 
Let's not forget that even if you were to seek help for mental illness, even something as simple as anxiety pills brings down the FAA medical hammer on you. Therefore pilots are even less likely to seek help than the general public.

Possibly the biggest stigma of mental illness is the FAA itself.
 
Todd82 said:
Let's not forget that even if you were to seek help for mental illness, even something as simple as anxiety pills brings down the FAA medical hammer on you. Therefore pilots are even less likely to seek help than the general public.

Possibly the biggest stigma of mental illness is the FAA itself.
Click to expand...

The FAA has created an environment where there is no motivation for a pilot to seek medical help. Bad enough most men are reluctant to seek help to begin with, being a pilot makes it even worse!
 
Todd82 said:
Let's not forget that even if you were to seek help for mental illness, even something as simple as anxiety pills brings down the FAA medical hammer on you. Therefore pilots are even less likely to seek help than the general public.

Possibly the biggest stigma of mental illness is the FAA itself.
Click to expand...
Well ... as I've seen people here effectively say that psychology wasn't real, the problem goes deeper, and, as often is the case, is on both "sides".
 
In terms of science, psychology is way closer to astrology than physics, but depression is certainly real, and the biomedical/chemical advances in this area have been tremendous in the past couple of decades. That said, we also probably have more over-diagnosed and drugged grade schools kids than any other country on the planet, so science goes hand in hand with greed.
 
^very true. We're in the stone ages when understanding the mind.
 
Albany Tom said:
That said, we also probably have more over-diagnosed and drugged grade schools kids than any other country on the planet, so science goes hand in hand with greed.
Click to expand...
I don't think over-drugged kids is more greed than lack of parental skills. Show me an engaged parent(s) and I don't think you'll see any Ritalin or Adderall bottles in that house.;)
 
America loves it's medicine. That said, we also love "never medicine" so maybe it balances out in the end. Sort of like heading 90, 270, 90, 270....
 
Bell206 said:
I don't think over-drugged kids is more greed than lack of parental skills. Show me an engaged parent(s) and I don't think you'll see any Ritalin or Adderall bottles in that house.;)
Click to expand...

Yep, and teachers and our educational system can play into it. We pretend to embrace everyone's differences, yet schools get wound up when kids don't all act the same. Add teaching to the lowest tier so everyone goes through, so that 10% is bored out of their minds, and it's no wonder it's a problem.
 
Having recently listened to a parade of psychologists and psychiatrists as a member of a jury where mental health was a factor, I came to the conclusion that diagnosing and treating mental illness is a black art. Just as in non-psychiatric medicine, doctors have differences of opinion, only more so.
 
Last edited:
midwestpa24 said:
The FAA has created an environment where there is no motivation for a pilot to seek medical help. Bad enough most men are reluctant to seek help to begin with, being a pilot makes it even worse!
Click to expand...
If you're inclined to blame others for not taking responsibility, yes. If you have mental health problems and don't seek appropriate evaluation and treatment,it isn't the FAA's fault.
 
Todd82 said:
Let's not forget that even if you were to seek help for mental illness, even something as simple as anxiety pills brings down the FAA medical hammer on you. Therefore pilots are even less likely to seek help than the general public.

Possibly the biggest stigma of mental illness is the FAA itself.
Click to expand...
They're not stigmatizing it, they're simply saying you can't fly an airplane with certain mental health conditions.
 
mryan75 said:
They're not stigmatizing it, they're simply saying you can't fly an airplane with certain mental health conditions.
Click to expand...

When they list depression as nearly always disqualifying, a condition that effects 13% of the population, you are definitely stigmatizing it. Research has shown that pilots are no different.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/1-in-8-airline-pilots-may-be-clinically-depressed.amp

Given the extremely small percentage of special issuances issued for depression, lots of pilots are lying on their Medexpress forms.
 
pilot445 said:
When they list depression as nearly always disqualifying, a condition that effects 13% of the population, you are definitely stigmatizing it.
Click to expand...

To stigmatize is to make a value judgment. In other words, not “psychosis is a disqualifying medical condition,” but rather “you losers with psychosis are freaking nuts, you can’t fly!” Secondly, diabetes is disqualifying. So is epilepsy. Do you think the FAA is stigmatizing those conditions? Of course not.

You’re applying a judgment to the FAAs position where none exists.
 
I believe the origin of the word "Stigma" is the "visible evidence of disease." Something can be both a stigma and a legitimate reason to prevent people from flying.
 
mryan75 said:
To stigmatize is to make a value judgment. In other words, not “psychosis is a disqualifying medical condition,” but rather “you losers with psychosis are freaking nuts, you can’t fly!” Secondly, diabetes is disqualifying. So is epilepsy. Do you think the FAA is stigmatizing those conditions? Of course not.

You’re applying a judgment to the FAAs position where none exists.
Click to expand...

What’s interesting is that none of these are teuc
Hengelo said:
I believe the origin of the word "Stigma" is the "visible evidence of disease." Something can be both a stigma and a legitimate reason to prevent people from flying.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the current system is singling out people who admit they have a problem with something, and incentivizes those who don’t seek help and hide their problems from medical professionals. If the FAA were to do Top Secret Security Clearance style interviews with friends/family on all medical certificate holders, how many unreported/untreated medical conditions like depression would they find? I would surmise quite a lot.
 
mryan75 said:
To stigmatize is to make a value judgment. In other words, not “psychosis is a disqualifying medical condition,” but rather “you losers with psychosis are freaking nuts, you can’t fly!” Secondly, diabetes is disqualifying. So is epilepsy. Do you think the FAA is stigmatizing those conditions? Of course not.

You’re applying a judgment to the FAAs position where none exists.
Click to expand...

And there are pilots that may be diabetic or borderline diabetic but manage to avoid being treated or diagnosed to stay off the radar. The urine test conducted at a medical is only looking for sugar in your urine, which I understand means your blood sugar is way out of whack by then. Same with any type of psychosis. Pilots will avoid talking about it, avoid seeking any type of treatment for their issues, just to avoid the risk of losing their medical. Easier to ignore the problem than deal with the FAA.
 
pilot445 said:
What’s interesting is that none of these are teuc
Click to expand...
Seems like that last word is a typo. Not sure what you were trying to say and I don't want to assume.

pilot445 said:
The problem is that the current system is singling out people who admit they have a problem with something, and incentivizes those who don’t seek help and hide their problems from medical professionals. If the FAA were to do Top Secret Security Clearance style interviews with friends/family on all medical certificate holders, how many unreported/untreated medical conditions like depression would they find? I would surmise quite a lot.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you, but at the same time, the FAA isn't incentivizing anyone to lie or break the law. Drunk driving is illegal. That doesn't encourage people to drive drunk. We as pilots and as people have to take responsibility for our decisions. If you decide to lie on your medical, that's on you, not on the FAA. You are the pilot-in-command of your medical. Take responsibility.

Another problem with this is that many (most?) of the people who call the FAA policy on mental illness unfair are the people who got diagnosed with something (often for their own convenience or benefit) and then figure out later that you can't fly if you have ADHD or if you take medication X. "I was prescribed the pills, but they never gave me a diagnosis." Or "I was on X for 3 years, but I don't think I ever needed it and I don't take it anymore." We've all read the stories 100 times. So either they got their disability payments for a few years and then decided they wanted to fly, or they got an ADHD diagnosis so they could pop pills to help them study in college, and now all of the sudden they can't be pilots. So of course that's all the FAA's fault.
 
mryan75 said:
Another problem with this is that many (most?) of the people who call the FAA policy on mental illness unfair are the people who got diagnosed with something (often for their own convenience or benefit) and then figure out later that you can't fly if you have ADHD or if you take medication X. "I was prescribed the pills, but they never gave me a diagnosis." Or "I was on X for 3 years, but I don't think I ever needed it and I don't take it anymore." We've all read the stories 100 times. So either they got their disability payments for a few years and then decided they wanted to fly, or they got an ADHD diagnosis so they could pop pills to help them study in college, and now all of the sudden they can't be pilots. So of course that's all the FAA's fault.
Click to expand...

How about the people who's parents got them diagnosed at an early age to get them medicated, and now 20 years later they are a normal adult and have to go through and pay for the entire HIMS process to prove it?

Or a student of mine, that had a single arrest for drug possession when he was a teenager, hanging out with the wrong crowd. 20 years later he wants to be come a pilot, as a grown adult who neither drinks nor uses drugs. Spends 2 years and $10K just to get a 3rd Class Medical. Once his 6 month special issuance expired, the FAA wanted him to repeat the HIMS program for another 2 years. Even the AME told him the FAA Medical Office was really just trying to shove him into BasicMed to get him off their books.
 
midwestpa24 said:
How about the people who's parents got them diagnosed at an early age to get them medicated, and now 20 years later they are a normal adult and have to go through and pay for the entire HIMS process to prove it?

Or a student of mine, that had a single arrest for drug possession when he was a teenager, hanging out with the wrong crowd. 20 years later he wants to be come a pilot, as a grown adult who neither drinks nor uses drugs. Spends 2 years and $10K just to get a 3rd Class Medical. Once his 6 month special issuance expired, the FAA wanted him to repeat the HIMS program for another 2 years. Even the AME told him the FAA Medical Office was really just trying to shove him into BasicMed to get him off their books.
Click to expand...
Can't win 'em all. Every policy is going to have unfair outcomes.
 
mryan75 said:
Can't win 'em all. Every policy is going to have unfair outcomes.
Click to expand...

That's the crutch with the FAA's policies. They are overly restrictive and invasive for the result they are trying to obtain. Honestly the idea of the third-class medical is ridiculous. Why have to go through such a screening to operate a 4 seat 1,500 pound airplane, but can drive a 9 seat 6,000 pound SUV daily without anything more than an eye exam? A 3rd class medical is more thorough than a CDL medical to drive an 80,000lb semi!

The FAA stood their ground for years, telling everyone they could not rescind 3rd class medical requirements or else aircraft would drop from the skies. LSA and BasicMed have proven that wrong. It took intervention from Congress to even make it happen, as the FAA turned a deaf ear to the public.

Why does something 10+ years in my past that no longer exist require so much further documentation and cost to get clearance past the FAA? Why is an arrest proof of guilt to the FAA? I'm not anti-medical, but the FAA system is badly broken. It is easier for them to just deny and prevent someone from flying needlessly, than accept any level of risk. And there is little evidence that the FAA medical system contributes much to overall safety. Pilot incapacitation is extremely rare, and nothing about the medical process does much to prevent it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Why have to go through such a screening to operate a 4 seat 1,500 pound airplane, but can drive a 9 seat 6,000 pound SUV daily without anything more than an eye exam?
Click to expand...

Given that almost 37,000 people die in the US of car accidents every year, perhaps we should be making the opposite argument.

midwestpa24 said:
And there is little evidence that the FAA medical system contributes much to overall safety. Pilot incapacitation is extremely rare, and nothing about the medical process does much to prevent it.
Click to expand...

People say this often; it doesn't hold water. We will see what the BasicMed stats bear out over time, but you can't say that because something doesn't happen, that something designed to prevent it is ineffective. That's an oxymoron. And I'm not here to defend the FAA, I just took issue with the notion that the FAA's medical policy "stigmatizes" mental illness.
 
mryan75 said:
Given that almost 37,000 people die in the US of car accidents every year, perhaps we should be making the opposite argument.
Click to expand...

And how many of those are due to medical incapacitation that a annual or longer term medical screening would prevent? Number one cause of automobile accidents is distracted driving, next alcohol or other impairments. Not apples to apples at all.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And how many of those are due to medical incapacitation that a annual or longer term medical screening would prevent? Number one cause of automobile accidents is distracted driving, next alcohol or other impairments. Not apples to apples at all.
Click to expand...
Okay. I'm done arguing.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And there are pilots that may be diabetic or borderline diabetic but manage to avoid being treated or diagnosed to stay off the radar. The urine test conducted at a medical is only looking for sugar in your urine, which I understand means your blood sugar is way out of whack by then. Same with any type of psychosis. Pilots will avoid talking about it, avoid seeking any type of treatment for their issues, just to avoid the risk of losing their medical. Easier to ignore the problem than deal with the FAA.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. "zero tolerance" policies have consequences in the behavior they incentivize. I think we can all agree on that. The rub is in how you would responsibly enforce an alternative. With a surplus of would-be pilots the barriers will remain high.
 
The elephant in the room is institutional liability. Agencies (and people) are incentivized to avoid liability - so we get questionable zero tolerance policies. They're not really enforcing what they intend but it's very difficult to find fault when the policy is so draconian.
 
Wow. That's one of the most tragic stories I've read. I hope the reaction leads to making things better for pilots, not worse.
 
Hmmm...
"His parents said not one person had any indication their son was depressed, including them. They are physicians with training in psychiatry."​
 
If trained professionals observing him every day for 18 years missed it, it's not clear that an FAA-inspired program would do any better. I think this tragedy is an outlier, and the guy was a future Germanwings disaster.
 
Something’s not being told in the story so far. Don’t know what it is, but something is missing.
 
Such a shame. The FAA needs to take notice. I am currently seeking my class 3. I had a head injury in 2012. Just last week I had to meet with my treating Dr from 7 years ago to get an “all clear” letter added to my file. We had a detailed discussion about the FAA wanting so much paperwork, especially with any kind of psychological issue. My Dr told me it’s the same in the medical field. Off the record he said doctors do not seek help for anxiety, depression ect… for the same reason. Your out until they decide your not. I just wonder how many pilots are out there suffering and possibly self medicating to avoid the FAA gauntlet. Just seems so sad to read about something that was so easily prevented. I wonder if anyone in the FAA ever reads reports about these types of thing that were not written by the FAA? It really ****es me off that his fear of the FAA contributed to his decision. I just wonder if the FAA reviewers who work all these files are on anti anxiety meds, meds for depression, whatever. How do we know they are making good sound decisions? Are they screened to make sure they don’t suffer from bipolar disorder? I’ll stop, now I’m just venting.
 
Think about it… how many airline pilots do you know that have been married more than once? A spouse leaving, or getting sick, etc can cause a LOT of heartache, stress, or whatever you want to call it, yet how many pilots end up crashing planes because of that? Seems like letting people get help without jeopardizing their career would be logical.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top