Uncontrolled airport: Full or partial call sign?

Hawka said:
I don't see the point in saying my call sign at all. Who even takes note of the other call signs, other than the type of plane if someone is announcing? I just hear "Springfield traffic Cessna blahblahblah turning base for 18 springfield". Then I'm looking for a cessna. It just wastes time saying your call sign.
Click to expand...

At Compton, just over from Long Beach, at any given time there may have been 15 152s in the pattern between 25L&R. Too short of a call doesn't cut it, you need call signs and you need to understand who is in front, behind, and opposite you in the pattern.
 
The use of the full tail number is not for safety or operational reasons, but for station identification purposes. Back when the rules for air frequencies were written, pretty much everyone transmitting on a radio frequency needed a station call sign and was required to identify their station periodically. FCC has always specified the registration number to be used as a call sign.

I doubt in the history of the FCC anyone has been busted for using an abbreviated call sign on a CTAF frequency, but the regs are clear, so at least understand that it is contrary to the regs.

Fly safe.
 
Henning said:
At Compton, just over from Long Beach, at any given time there may have been 15 152s in the pattern between 25L&R. Too short of a call doesn't cut it, you need call signs and you need to understand who is in front, behind, and opposite you in the pattern.
Click to expand...


Yes but seriously my point is that you categorize them by type and where they are in the pattern. If you hear "Cessna left base for 25L" and then hear "Cessna left downwind for 25L", you know there are two Cessna's one on base and one on downwind. The actual tail numbers are not relevant. You wouldn't be able to see those numbers anyway. All you need to know is WHERE they are.

If you hear two Cessna's reporting on base then stay well clear and enjoy the fireworks.
 
Hawka said:
If you hear "Cessna left base for 25L" and then hear "Cessna left downwind for 25L", you know there are two Cessna's one on base and one on downwind. The actual tail numbers are not relevant. You wouldn't be able to see those numbers anyway. All you need to know is WHERE they are.
Click to expand...
And if it's "Cessna left downwind for 25L" and then "Cessna left base for 25L," how many Cessnas are in the pattern?
 
Hawka said:
Yes but seriously my point is that you categorize them by type and where they are in the pattern. If you hear "Cessna left base for 25L" and then hear "Cessna left downwind for 25L", you know there are two Cessna's one on base and one on downwind. The actual tail numbers are not relevant. You wouldn't be able to see those numbers anyway. All you need to know is WHERE they are.
Click to expand...
BTDT too many times in my 45 years of flying to agree. Please use a unique identifier, whether it's FCC-legal or not.
 
timwinters said:
Did you REALLY think I was being serious?

If so then you're in dire need of a funny bone transplant, Ron.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what people do out there. I've heard safety-compromising silliness like that on CTAF's more times than I'd care to think about.
 
Captain said:
99% of the time I'm coming into an uncontrolled field I'm coming off of an IFR flight with an approved call sign, so that adds a variable. The routine I've settled into and works best IMO is to use the call sign with ATC and use make and tail number with CTAF.

Me: Denver center, HoneyBadger 457 has the field in sight, would like to cancel IFR
Center: HoneyBadger 457, IFR cancelation received, squawk 1200, have a nice day.
Me: Take care
Me: Denver traffic Piaggio 123AB is 8 miles to the South passing through 12,000 feet, inbound straight in runway 35 Left, Denver.
Click to expand...
sounds good. that way you won't confused with the 3 other piaggios making approaches to backwater municipal airport
 
Ron Levy said:
How is using type plus last three as I recommended breaking the rules?
Click to expand...


FCC station identification, as defined in their rules. Not FAA rules.

And I'll reiterate, in case anyone missed it... I don't care. Just sayin'...
 
47 CFR 87.107 - if you're bored Ron.

Aircraft may only shorten their callsign to type plus three characters, if communication with the shortened callsign is initiated by a ground station.

Otherwise, FCC says full callsign.

(I've omitted company callsigns for brevity and technically, since owners are probably "Maintenance Personnel", if you're taxiing around the airport, "Company, Maintenance" is okay too. At least per the reg. ;) )
 
denverpilot said:
47 CFR 87.107 - if you're bored Ron.

Aircraft may only shorten their callsign to type plus three characters, if communication with the shortened callsign is initiated by a ground station.

Otherwise, FCC says full callsign.

(I've omitted company callsigns for brevity and technically, since owners are probably "Maintenance Personnel", if you're taxiing around the airport, "Company, Maintenance" is okay too. At least per the reg. ;) )
Click to expand...

I stay away from company call signs on the CTAF because it doesn't identify the aircraft to the other pilots like a make or model does. Flying a plane with a 120 knot Vref seems like something other pilots in the pattern might like to know.
 
denverpilot said:
47 CFR 87.107 - if you're bored Ron.

Aircraft may only shorten their callsign to type plus three characters, if communication with the shortened callsign is initiated by a ground station.

Otherwise, FCC says full callsign.
Click to expand...
I know that, but I'm only interested in the FAA guidance and being safe, so as for that particular FCC rule, frankly, Scarlett...
:wink2:
 
Ron Levy said:
I know that, but I'm only interested in the FAA guidance and being safe, so as for that particular FCC rule, frankly, Scarlett...
:wink2:
Click to expand...

Translation: if it's a FAA or TSA rule, Ron strictly abides by it. If it's an FCC rule, Ron goes all EdFred on us.
 
" Podunk, Skywagon 51S 10 miles NW at 3000, inbound for 16, Podunk."

This covers 99% of the rules for me, (I have one alpha number). And it covers the four W's. I will use full call sign when I request FF or when I think it's needed. But other than that, I don't want anyone except pilots and ATC to be aware of me.

Not volunteering any information to any local-yocal eavesdropping whiner-Nazi's can only keep things more copacetic. ;):redface:

Who you're calling
Who you are
Where you are
What you want
 
Captain said:
I stay away from company call signs on the CTAF because it doesn't identify the aircraft to the other pilots like a make or model does. Flying a plane with a 120 knot Vref seems like something other pilots in the pattern might like to know.
Click to expand...
I would have no idea how fast a Piaggio is or isn't. Sounds like the name of one of those import LSAs to me.

Couldn't care less if you are in a Cherokee or Musketeer - from a mile a way they both just look like low wing blobs.

Skylane, Skywagon, SkyKing - all the same to me.

99% of the airplanes in the pattern are white.

I could make my call identifying myself as the white Merlin GT. How helpful would that be?

Don't make no difference - might as well follow the book (more or less).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I would have no idea how fast a Piaggio is or isn't. Sounds like the name of one of those import LSAs to me.

Couldn't care less if you are in a Cherokee or Musketeer - from a mile a way they both just look like low wing blobs.

Skylane, Skywagon, SkyKing - all the same to me.

99% of the airplanes in the pattern are white.

I could make my call identifying myself as the white Merlin GT. How helpful would that be?

Don't make no difference - might as well follow the book (more or less).
Click to expand...
Just because you don't know how fast a Piaggio is doesn't mean that I don't know how fast a Piaggio is.

I know my Flybaby is damn right slow and if I hear Piaggio coming into the pattern that's going to get my attention. A J3 cub is much less of a concern.
 
Hawka said:
Yes but seriously my point is that you categorize them by type and where they are in the pattern. If you hear "Cessna left base for 25L" and then hear "Cessna left downwind for 25L", you know there are two Cessna's one on base and one on downwind. The actual tail numbers are not relevant. You wouldn't be able to see those numbers anyway. All you need to know is WHERE they are.

If you hear two Cessna's reporting on base then stay well clear and enjoy the fireworks.
Click to expand...

At any time there will be multiple Cessna in any position of the pattern. The three place identifier was necessary, sometimes more if you had similar call sign. You needed to know which call was in front, behind, and opposite you in the pattern.
 
jesse said:
Just because you don't know how fast a Piaggio is doesn't mean that I don't know how fast a Piaggio is.

I know my Flybaby is damn right slow and if I hear Piaggio coming into the pattern that's going to get my attention. A J3 cub is much less of a concern.
Click to expand...

I would bet that a lot more pilots know what to expect from a Cub than a Piaggio. If you have knowledge of the performance of a wide variety of aircraft types, that may allow you personally to gain useful information, but from the point of view of pilots of less commonly known types, the most effective thing to do would be to communicate in a way that will be meaningful to the largest percentage of the other pilots in the pattern. I would bet that most pilots, on hearing a company call sign, would expect it to be an aircraft on the higher performance end of the spectrum, and that this would be a correct expectation most of the time.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I would have no idea how fast a Piaggio is or isn't. Sounds like the name of one of those import LSAs to me.

Couldn't care less if you are in a Cherokee or Musketeer - from a mile a way they both just look like low wing blobs.

Skylane, Skywagon, SkyKing - all the same to me.

99% of the airplanes in the pattern are white.

I could make my call identifying myself as the white Merlin GT. How helpful would that be?

Don't make no difference - might as well follow the book (more or less).
Click to expand...




So your'e saying that keying up and saying "nXXXWT inbound for 16" is better than "Skylane XXXWT inbound for 16." ? :dunno:

Not in my book. :nonod:

I know a cherokee from a skyhawk, and a twin baron from a Piaggio etc. And a round about idea how fast and what their flight characteristics are. That helps me in an un-controlled pattern. But that's just me .. :confused:
 
Many companies with call signs operate slow aircraft (C402 / Caravan) as well as jets. A call sing does nothing to differentiate them. While some pilots may be (or choose to be) ignorant of various aircraft speeds, the choice is between call sign and make / model. Given that choice I think the most information gets conveyed to the largest group with a make over callnsign. Ergo, the way I do it.
 
txflyer said:
So your'e saying that keying up and saying "nXXXWT inbound for 16" is better than "Skylane XXXWT inbound for 16." ? :dunno:

Not in my book. :nonod:

I know a cherokee from a skyhawk, and a twin baron from a Piaggio etc. And a round about idea how fast and what their flight characteristics are. That helps me in an un-controlled pattern. But that's just me .. :confused:
Click to expand...
I'm saying it doesn't make that much difference when you get right down to it.

Telling me "White Cessna inbound" tells me not much more than the politically correct "Cessna N1234 inbound". Say it the way you want, but I don't see the big deal one way or the other.

Any guesses how fast my Merlin is (without looking it up)? ;)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I'm saying it doesn't make that much difference when you get right down to it.

Telling me "White Cessna inbound" tells me not much more than the politically correct "Cessna N1234 inbound". Say it the way you want, but I don't see the big deal one way or the other.

Any guesses how fast my Merlin is (without looking it up)? ;)
Click to expand...


O.k. you got me on that one.

But if you said "twin Merlin" that would give me a good idea of what you can and can't do.

It's six and one half dozen or the other I guess. If you just said "merlin XXXWT" that would have me looking going "wtf is a merlin and wheretf is he? :redface:
 
Palmpilot said:
I would bet that a lot more pilots know what to expect from a Cub than a Piaggio. If you have knowledge of the performance of a wide variety of aircraft types, that may allow you personally to gain useful information, but from the point of view of pilots of less commonly known types, the most effective thing to do would be to communicate in a way that will be meaningful to the largest percentage of the other pilots in the pattern. I would bet that most pilots, on hearing a company call sign, would expect it to be an aircraft on the higher performance end of the spectrum, and that this would be a correct expectation most of the time.
Click to expand...
That's just not the case. There is no guarantee of performance based on a company call sign. They can be damn near anything.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I'm saying it doesn't make that much difference when you get right down to it.

Telling me "White Cessna inbound" tells me not much more than the politically correct "Cessna N1234 inbound". Say it the way you want, but I don't see the big deal one way or the other.

Any guesses how fast my Merlin is (without looking it up)? ;)
Click to expand...

79mph.
 
Captain said:
Many companies with call signs operate slow aircraft (C402 / Caravan) as well as jets. A call sing does nothing to differentiate them. While some pilots may be (or choose to be) ignorant of various aircraft speeds, the choice is between call sign and make / model. Given that choice I think the most information gets conveyed to the largest group with a make over callnsign. Ergo, the way I do it.
Click to expand...

A C402 or Caravan is faster than most of the aircraft in the patterns of uncontrolled fields.
 
Palmpilot said:
A C402 or Caravan is faster than most of the aircraft in the patterns of uncontrolled fields.
Click to expand...

Do you have a point? I do and I've made it. Please feel free to say whatever you like on your radios.

Seriously, no hard feelings and I have no idea what we're arguing about.
 
jesse said:
That's just not the case. There is no guarantee of performance based on a company call sign. They can be damn near anything.
Click to expand...

I said most of the time. That is not a guarantee.
 
Last edited:
Captain said:
Do you have a point?
Click to expand...

Nothing other than what I've written.

I do and I've made it. Please feel free to say whatever you like on your radios.
Click to expand...

Same here.

Seriously, no hard feelings and I have no idea what we're arguing about.
Click to expand...

I don't have any hard feelings either. I'm just participating in the discussion.

Did I accidentally start typing in all caps or something? :wink2:
 
No, you just keep hammering on 'anyone with a call sign must be fast so using a make / model is bad form because I don't even know what planes are'. It's been pointed out that a call sign does not mean a fast plane but to no avail.

It's obvious you are not going to change your mind despite words and meanings and stuff and I'm not sure why. But, I also don't really care. I deal with jacked up radio comms from all walks of aviation and I'm pretty sure this thread isn't gonna fix it.

I don't think you even use a company call sign so I'm not sure what dog you have in this fight anyway. I guarantee you're not going to get me to start using a company call sign over the CTAF for the reasons stated above.

crap...now I've typed too much to convey a sense of not caring. :(
 
Captain said:
No, you just keep hammering on 'anyone with a call sign must be fast so using a make / model is bad form because I don't even know what planes are'. It's been pointed out that a call sign does not mean a fast plane but to no avail.

It's obvious you are not going to change your mind despite words and meanings and stuff and I'm not sure why. But, I also don't really care. I deal with jacked up radio comms from all walks of aviation and I'm pretty sure this thread isn't gonna fix it.

I don't think you even use a company call sign so I'm not sure what dog you have in this fight anyway. I guarantee you're not going to get me to start using a company call sign over the CTAF for the reasons stated above.

crap...now I've typed too much to convey a sense of not caring. :(
Click to expand...

I'm baffled as to why you think the few posts I've written on this subject are "hammering." :confused:
 
Captain said:
No, you just keep hammering on 'anyone with a call sign must be fast so using a make / model is bad form because I don't even know what planes are'. It's been pointed out that a call sign does not mean a fast plane but to no avail.
Click to expand...
I handle that by including my type aircraft in the initial call on a CTAF.

i.e. "[Callsign], a DC9, ..."
 
txflyer said:
O.k. you got me on that one.

But if you said "twin Merlin" that would give me a good idea of what you can and can't do.

It's six and one half dozen or the other I guess. If you just said "merlin XXXWT" that would have me looking going "wtf is a merlin and wheretf is he? :redface:
Click to expand...
I have an advantage in that I know my speed in relation to everyone else in the pattern - they are all faster. ;)

I do try to include a position.
 
Brad Z said:
Translation: if it's a FAA or TSA rule, Ron strictly abides by it. If it's an FCC rule, Ron goes all EdFred on us.
Click to expand...
Assumes facts not in evidence. Just because I answer someone's question about legality doesn't mean I necessarily agree with or adhere to any particular rule myself. OTOH, don't expect me to put in writing in a public place that I violated a regulation of a Federal agency which can cause me significant pain.
 
jesse said:
That's just not the case. There is no guarantee of performance based on a company call sign. They can be damn near anything.
Click to expand...

This really really bugs me. I rent from a place that encourages people to use their company callsign, but they rent Skycatchers, Skyhawks, Twinkies, Diamond Twin Stars, Columbia 400, Bonanza, etc etc. I have no idea what I'm looking for and a very general idea of what kind of performance to expect.

Larry in TN said:
I handle that by including my type aircraft in the initial call on a CTAF.

i.e. "[Callsign], a DC9, ..."
Click to expand...

This works until someone gets on the frequency after you've made your initial callup. Which happens very often.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top