Unanticipated ramp/handling fees

Wouldn't that depend on where she finds it?



bnt83 said:
Just from reading this board its obvious nothing gets blown out of proportion like a bad experience.

Sometimes its so bad it sounds like a 16 year old girl finding a zit on prom night... :goofy:
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Makes me wonder how much trouble one would be in if he simply said he checked airnav for fees, none were listed, and he refuses to pay.
 
I landed at GSO during one of my dual XC trips as a student in a 150, and was told either buy gas or pay (CFI said he was not charged a fee before). The girl at the desk told me that if I would have came on Friday instead of Thursday she would have waived it, because "her boss wouldn't have been there". Very frustrating
 
Gerhardt said:
Makes me wonder how much trouble one would be in if he simply said he checked airnav for fees, none were listed, and he refuses to pay.
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Airnav isn't directly associated with the airport but if you go to the FBO site or the airport authority website and don't see a fee, then you have an argument.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Checked Airnav before going. No mention of fees for American Aviation there.
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Even if you had done due diligence and located the web site for the airport you'd have found this:

http://www.flybkv.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=21&Itemid=50

No Landing Fees​
No Short Term Parking Fees​
No Hassles​

On the other hand, where it is easily overlooked, parking and tiedown fees are mentioned in the AOPA Airport page for this airport (just not how much, or which FBOs):

http://www.aopa.org/airports/KBKV

There needs to be some reasonable manner in which we can determine costs without having to call every FBO where we may stop in advance.
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Yeah, that would be nice...

By the way, it isn't as if that FBO doesn't already have a fancy web site where they could put their service rate information; they have a web site but I could not find their service rates in a quick browse:

http://www.americanaviation.com/

My understanding is that unilateral invention of binding ad hoc contract terms isn't exactly legal. Has something to do with basic contract law.
 
It would be difficult to determine which type of contract the pilot and FBO entered into if the pilot had never seen the landing fee prices that is located inside the FBO.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Even if you had done due diligence and located the web site for the airport you'd have found this:

http://www.flybkv.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=21&Itemid=50

No Landing Fees​
No Short Term Parking Fees​
No Hassles​

On the other hand, where it is easily overlooked, parking and tiedown fees are mentioned in the AOPA Airport page for this airport (just not how much, or which FBOs):

http://www.aopa.org/airports/KBKV

Yeah, that would be nice...

By the way, it isn't as if that FBO doesn't already have a fancy web site where they could put their service rate information; they have a web site but I could not find their service rates in a quick browse:

http://www.americanaviation.com/

My understanding is that unilateral invention of binding ad hoc contract terms isn't exactly legal. Has something to do with basic contract law.
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Wow, listed on the front page of the airport website? I'd call the airport manager and ask if he knows the FBO is charging a landing fee.
 
I'm using that 'no stated contract' on my next involvement with an FBO and fees. Is it on your website? Is it published? Is it on a giant signage as one approaches the ramp? Is it in the city charter docs? Is it published - anywhere the public can readily find it?
 
I stopped into Boca Aviation (KBCT) once with a friend to visit his WIFE who worked in the building (but not for the fbo). We were in a Citabria, it took them a forever to even realize we were going to park....they parked us 100+ yards away from the building. We walked in, found out she wasn't in her office and walked out. We weren't in the building for 5 minutes. They made us pay $35 even after asking to wave it for us due to the circumstances. The front desk personnel was rude about it as well.

Unfortunately for them we are also the crew of a jet that goes to Boca frequently....and will avoid them / buy fuel from their competitor when we can.
 
It is crappy that you're a regular customer (at least yearly) and that they changed their policy and wouldn't work with you on your return leg.

weilke said:
What I respect is if FBO managers post replies to bad reviews. Some pilots are rather ridiculous in their expectations and sometimes a post and its reply say more about the pilot than the facility.
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This. I know the place where I worked had a two or three really nasty comments. One was flat out slander and it was removed. The others were replied to by the owner. The one that was slander was extremely inappropriate and he put stuff in that didn't exist, and provided facts that proved it (he went to competition, got mad when he found out we didn't own competition. didn't like competitions self serve facilities. wrote us nasty review) wasn't accurate.

I avoid places that don't allow reviews too. That's how I found XJet at KAPA - love that place even though it's pricey.


On that note, our ramp fees were a sliding scale and were charged at our discretion. IIRC $10 for piston singles, $25 for twins, $50 turbine singles, $75 for smal twin turbines, $100 for large (KA 350, Piaggio etc) and light jets, $125 for medium jets $150 large and $200 extra large. It costs a lot of money to service these people who want papers, ice, coffee, flight plannning, a ride etc when they buy 0 gallons. Now if a guy comes in in his 210 on an Angel Flight and he's nice then no he's not gonna get a fee. Or the regular in the King Air who just doesn't need fuel today. Those guys aren't who we charged it for, just the ones who want something for nothing.
 
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And then there's the FBO at KMER. I flew there Tuesday in a 177RG. Asked if I owed a ramp fee for a few hours. "Nope." Asked how to get to the air museum. "Get in the truck over there and I'll drive you over." That was a pleasant surprise. He even told us where to get a good taco (and it WAS good).
 
Ramp fees are worse then user fees, we already paid for the pavement, now we have to pay a third party to park on it. Any fbo types know if ramp fees are in the lease or if they are just made up?
 
I'm pretty sure most FBOs are making so much money they need a wheelbarrow to get it to the bank every day.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I'm pretty sure most FBOs are making so much money they need a wheelbarrow to get it to the bank every day.
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I agree. It's amazing how many are declaring bankruptcy in spite of that.
 
Speed said:
Calling is good. Email might be better (paper trail). I called one FBO asking for a fuel quote, she said she would email me the price as it would take her a minute to figure it out. Later we were told by a manager that wasn't the correct price. I said I have it right here in my email - this is what I was quoted. They said they would honor it...
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Even asking in person doesn't always work. I just got a $40 Signature ">1 hr on ramp" ramp fee waived a week after, becuase when I asked before taking fuel, what the comprehensive ramp fews were going to be I was only told about he $80.

Of course, I was unhappy but I paid it (MDW.Odyssey is gone). At least the GM (Mr. Haim) is honorable. But I"m workin out leaving a Beater at PWK and just saying "g'bye, MDW". I don't really need MDW.
 
dell30rb said:
Wow, listed on the front page of the airport website? I'd call the airport manager and ask if he knows the FBO is charging a landing fee.
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Technically the airport manager may be correct that there is no landing fee which would go to the airport, but the FBO can charge a facility fee/ramp fee which goes to the FBO.

Just out of curiosity I went to the websites of several FBOs which I know have facility fees. None were listed with the exception of Signature where you can calculate what you would pay depending on how much fuel you buy.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Dave: just curious, was this the first time in the KA vs the 58P?
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Did it last year in the KA Ted.

I think ambushed is how I felt. It was a challenging flight with bad weather I was trying (and did) beat into Orlando. I've stopped there a bunch of times and just got fuel on the way back--it's not like I wasn't going to do business with them. As I'm walking out, this lady I didn't know from adam askes if I'm getting fuel and I said on my return trip I'd like to top off. She says if you don't buy fuel right now, there's a $65 ramp fee in front of my guests. The fees weren't on the web site, they weren't publicly posted, she asked a guy what the fee was and he asked what kind of KA. I told him and he gets a sheet out of a desk drawer and says $65.
There has to be some disclosure of this stuff. I don't have a flight department to arrange all my stops. If one changes destinations in the air, how would they determine this? Had to tanker fuel I didn't need to Orlando. Just stupid. And the manner in which it was handled was inexcusable.


Thanks,

Dave
 
cirrusmx said:
we have it easy. An FBO/airport charges 60 bucks, just go to the next one. People really like to complain about paying 60 dollars when they are burning that amount of fuel in 15 minutes. I usually let the FBO to collect fees from me, if they dont say anything by the time i have my engine running i am out of there.
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That's how I feel. That's how I operate.

I try to make it easy to charge whatever reasonable fees they want at the small stops. I like letting them lose track of me at the big stops.

A smile, a friendly attitude and a top off generally smooth the way.

I frankly like the way our airspace system, the airports and the FBOs work for me. If it were more regimented or consistently controlled, I think it would just become more expensive and restrictive for private pilots.
 
flav8r said:
Did you post a review on Airnav.com?
It seems that the last review was done back on 27 November 2012.
This is where I would voice my complaint for now until a better system comes along.
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Yes, I did last night. They say they have the right to verify the facts. Haven't seen them post it, they certainly haven't verified with me. I'm sure check the facts means check with their customer which is the FBO.

Sorry, I'm attending SIMCOM and can only post a bit at night.


Dave
 
Please notice, I'm not against a reasonable ramp fee. Even at Signature in Chicago they let me pay it on the return leg. I didn't need it that leg. I understand they are trying to make money and am very supportive of that, but work with me a bit please. I was going to purchase fuel later.
I think a ramp/handling or what ever fee should be publicly posted where someone can reasonably find it. Not on some sheet of paper one has to get out of a desk as I'm walking out the door. It's not on their web site. They'd never charged me before; of course, I've always purchased fuel, just on the return leg.

Best,

Dave
 
A KA is assumed to be a charter - thus - they can rape the owner since the owners pass on the fees to the charter customer . . . .
 
This is on their comment page now.

Dave
=======================================================

From David Siciliano on 03-Apr-2013
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I was very disappointed to be informed that if I didn't purchase 65 gallons of fuel there would be a $65 ramp fee. I was dropping a passenger and heading to Orlando. I do this annually to attend simulator training. I informed them I would stop on the way back and top off. That wasn't acceptable to them. I was required to put 65 gallons of fuel in right then, or pay a $65 ramp charge. I have no need to stop at this FBO. I did it to drop a friend and usually put in over 150 gallons for the return trip to Dallas. It's not like I don't support them; it's the wouldn't wait a couple days for me to take the time to refuel on the return trip. I will probably make other future arrangements in light of this. I will post this on other aviation boards to which I participate. Best, Dave
 
I don't think so. Without a charter ID sticker displayed somewhere on the aft end, a KA is a part 91 airplane just like all the others.

comanchepilot said:
A KA is assumed to be a charter - thus - they can rape the owner since the owners pass on the fees to the charter customer . . . .
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I think the key word is "reasonable" I recall flying to 26N Ocean City N.J. for a day at the beach with my wife. Now 26N is 5 blocks from the beach. The staff is friendly and they have free showers to get the sand off when you come off the beach and before you fly home. They charge a $10 fee. I don't know if its a landing fee, a ramp fee, a handling fee, a parking fee or whatever. I don't even know that there is a difference but for me the $10 fee for those services and the convince is well worth it.

When they become unreasonable well that's where I have a problem. Charge a parking fee for minutes or charge a $15 overnight parking fee AND a "handling fee" I have a problem.

Give me bad service and charge me for it. That's a problem.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I'm pretty sure most FBOs are making so much money they need a wheelbarrow to get it to the bank every day.
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Oh man I hope you're kidding. The profit margin on 100LL is nil. You hope that enough jets come in to make payroll.
 
AdamZ said:
I think the key word is "reasonable"
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I agree. I think for our airplane $50 or even $100 is reasonable. However we often get charged multiple hundreds, sometimes for parking less than 1/2 hour. This happens all the time so I guess I have become a little jaded about facility fees.

Also, as far as turbine airplanes being charter is concerned, there are plenty of them which fly as Part 91. We do about 75% part 91 and 25% charter in the airplane I fly.
 
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AdamZ said:
I think the key word is "reasonable" I recall flying to 26N Ocean City N.J. for a day at the beach with my wife. Now 26N is 5 blocks from the beach. The staff is friendly and they have free showers to get the sand off when you come off the beach and before you fly home. They charge a $10 fee. I don't know if its a landing fee, a ramp fee, a handling fee, a parking fee or whatever. I don't even know that there is a difference but for me the $10 fee for those services and the convince is well worth it.

When they become unreasonable well that's where I have a problem. Charge a parking fee for minutes or charge a $15 overnight parking fee AND a "handling fee" I have a problem.

Give me bad service and charge me for it. That's a problem.
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I went into 26N a couple of times a few months ago. Very off season and very quiet. The modest restaurant seems to keep a little traffic coming through. I don't know how they make money at $10 a stop but I was glad they were there and open for me. I gladly paid my $10 and bought a little fuel.

Of course, the $10 won't even keep the office manned during the off season. I guess I can thank the hangar dwellers for subsidizing the transients to some extent. Money hand over foot during the season I'm sure.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Oh man I hope you're kidding. The profit margin on 100LL is nil. You hope that enough jets come in to make payroll.
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But... But... We should have multiple types of AvGas! :rolleyes:
 
douglas393 said:
Years ago I had a credit card which I cancelled because I did not want to pay the yearly fees. When I cancelled it I owed 5 cents(there error if I remember from a check not being entered correctly). For almost 10 years I got a monthly bill from them with a 5 cents balance. This was despite me calling them at least 15 times telling them I was not going to pay postage to send them a check for 5 cents. I finally moved and the bills stopped.
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dell30rb said:
I would have sent a check for 4 cents
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I would have sent them a check for 10 cents and waited for the 5 cent refund check.
 
gkainz said:
I would have sent them a check for 10 cents and waited for the 5 cent refund check.
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I tried that. They reduced the amount of the check, and cashed it for what they wanted.
 
went back to pick up my passenger today and the manager of the facility apologized. Said she had made a bad call and would refund the ramp fee. Of course, I told her I had purchased fuel instead, but appreciated her apology. I seems in the past, they would charge a ramp fee if you didn't purchase anything, but credit it back if you did make a purchase in a case like mine. That just wasn't communicated well and she said she made a bad call and would work with me in the future. It was nice of them and it does make a difference to me.

Best,

Dave
 
Hmmm....maybe I need a new project to compete with Airnav for comments. "FBOs to avoid" or something. Allow comments....that could be a fun project. I've been wanting to defend a lawsuit against myself....
 
Got stung at KROC during a stop for a sample pickup from a collaborator for work . Been there before and never paid a ramp fee for a quick turn. The ramp fee is not well-advertised. Explains the vacant ramp and non-activity. Needless to say, I won't be back. There are other options in the Rochester area.
 
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