(un)pimp my panel

GeorgeC

GeorgeC

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GeorgeC
My 140A has a non-WAAS 430 and a 327.

I do not want multiple GPS antennas, so I first have to either upgrade the 430 or remove it before I can upgrade the transponder.

Option 1: Do the WAAS upgrade and swap in an ADS-B transponder.

Option 2: Remove the VOR/GS antenna and the CDI, replace the 430 with a plain comm, and swap in an ADS-B transponder.
 
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Most sensible thing to do would be to upgrade the 430 and tie it to a ADSB compliant xponder. It's also the most expensive route.

Consider neither. Option #3. Wait for uavionix Skybeacon to be certified and swap red position light for that unit.
 
The cost for the GNS-430 upgrade to 430W is now $4000 list price. An avionics dealer will likely give you a $300-400 dollar discount. The returned unit is indistinguishable from new, includes a 8130 form, 1 year factory warranty, and the LATEST software & hardware upgrades that include terrain and obstacle warning. The only change needed to your plane is swapping out the existing GPS antenna for one that is WAAS capable and maybe the attached coax cable. The antenna is exactly the same size.

Only 2 wires from the GTX-345 to the GNS-430W are needed to for the transponder's position source and to witness FIS-B data back on the 430W. The AHRS and Bluetooth capability works great with ForeFlight.

The installation costs are reduced since most of the wiring is not disturbed. This approach worked for me.
 
GeorgeC said:
My 140A has a non-WAAS 430 and a 327.

I do not want multiple GPS antennas, so I first have to either upgrade the 430 or remove it in before I can upgrade the transponder.

Option 1: Do the WAAS upgrade and swap in an ADS-B transponder.

Option 2: Remove the VOR/GS antenna and the CDI, replace the 430 with a plain comm, and swap in an ADS-B transponder.
Click to expand...


They do make combo VHF comm radio and GPS antennas. That are bigger and have a larger base, and SPENDY

upload_2018-5-4_14-34-56.png
 
Removing the 430 for a simple radio doesn't seem like a good idea, that's a good deal of value and capability

Prices for planes with a 430 vs a simple navcom are quite a bit different, unless it's a 70kt piper cub I'd was a /G aircraft.
 
GeorgeC said:
My 140A has a non-WAAS 430 and a 327.

I do not want multiple GPS antennas, so I first have to either upgrade the 430 or remove it before I can upgrade the transponder.

Option 1: Do the WAAS upgrade and swap in an ADS-B transponder.

Option 2: Remove the VOR/GS antenna and the CDI, replace the 430 with a plain comm, and swap in an ADS-B transponder.
Click to expand...
I'd do option 1: did it last year with my 530.
 
If you get an ADS-B transponder with a WAAS GPS antenna, can you split the signal into your non-WAAS 430? You would still only have one antenna.
 
James331 said:
Removing the 430 for a simple radio doesn't seem like a good idea, that's a good deal of value and capability

Prices for planes with a 430 vs a simple navcom are quite a bit different, unless it's a 70kt piper cub I'd was a /G aircraft.
Click to expand...

Resale value, yes, but I don't know about capability; it's not like I'm going to be flying a 140A IFR...

cgrab said:
If you get an ADS-B transponder with a WAAS GPS antenna, can you split the signal into your non-WAAS 430? You would still only have one antenna.
Click to expand...
I asked about that, I don't think a splitter is something they can do. Maybe @bnt83 knows why?
 
GeorgeC said:
Resale value, yes, but I don't know about capability; it's not like I'm going to be flying a 140A IFR...


I asked about that, I don't think a splitter is something they can do. Maybe @bnt83 knows why?
Click to expand...

Perhaps.

My default answer is wait a couple more years to do the ADSB thing.

Don't ditch the 430, if anything WAAS it, but even non WAAS it's a great box.
 
GeorgeC said:
Resale value, yes, but I don't know about capability; it's not like I'm going to be flying a 140A IFR...
Click to expand...

Exactly.
What kind of flying do you do in the 140?. Low and slow VFR enjoying the view and maybe the solitude? Back country runways where your fly rod is your companion? Weekend hops with a copilot for pancakes or $100 burgers? 2 or 3 hour cross country trips?

The 430 WAAS upgrade is now $4395, which is getting pretty close to what a non-WAAS 430 commands on the used market today.

Seems to me (with the one GPS antenna constraint) if money is no object, upgrade the 430, install a GTX 335 or 345, sell the 327 while it still has some value. My guess $8 to $10 AMUs net.

If on a budget might make more sense to sell the 430 and put in a replacement comm radio, keep the 327 & install a Garmin GDL 82 for your ADS-B Out solution. My guess $3 to $5 AMUs net.
 
GRG55 said:
Exactly.
What kind of flying do you do in the 140?. Low and slow VFR enjoying the view and maybe the solitude? Back country runways where your fly rod is your companion? Weekend hops with a copilot for pancakes or $100 burgers? 2 or 3 hour cross country trips?

The 430 WAAS upgrade is now $4395, which is getting pretty close to what a non-WAAS 430 commands on the used market today.

Seems to me (with the one GPS antenna constraint) if money is no object, upgrade the 430, install a GTX 335 or 345, sell the 327 while it still has some value. My guess $8 to $10 AMUs net.

If on a budget might make more sense to sell the 430 and put in a replacement comm radio, keep the 327 & install a Garmin GDL 82 for your ADS-B Out solution. My guess $3 to $5 AMUs net.
Click to expand...

Lol, dude, find me a shop that'll take a old navcom plane and put a /G in it for 4K OTD
 
I think what's bothering me is that, if I were doing it from scratch, I'd go for option B. I don't know why they put a 430 in to begin with, but now that it's there, it doesn't make sense to rip it out. So I'm leaning towards option A. The total cost will be higher, but I can do the WAAS upgrade this year and swap the transponder next year and spread out the pain a little.
 
What’s important to you in this new plane of yours? GPS instrument approaches? ADSB? Probably the latter knowing the airspaces you’re surrounded by George? If not GPS instrument stuff, maybe you net out cash neutral selling the 430 & 327 and getting the ADSB transponder and a basic radio? I am no expert...
 
It's a VFR airplane. I suppose I could shoot practice approaches in it, but it might take all day :)

The prices in post 10 are in line with what I've heard; you're in around 10k net for a GNS430W+GTX335, or around 5k for a GTR225 and a Stratus ESG after you sell the 430.
 
GeorgeC said:
It's a VFR airplane. I suppose I could shoot practice approaches in it, but it might take all day :)

The prices in post 10 are in line with what I've heard; you're in around 10k net for a GNS430W+GTX335, or around 5k for a GTR225 and a Stratus ESG after you sell the 430.
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly the only reason you are doing anything is ADS-B Out compliance.

Your condition that you do not want to add another GPS antenna seems a costly one to me. I understand the desire not to clutter up such a beautiful example of a real classic (and btw I think your airplane is absolutely gorgeous). But a GPS antenna far back on the turtledeck is pretty low profile.

And the current cost of the WAAS upgrade for the 430 is significantly more than the $2995 cost of buying a new Garmin GTX 335 transponder with built in WAAS GPS and the additional antenna (to replace the 327, leaving everything else as is). http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-k10-00276-03.html

One consideration for proceeding with the 430 WAAS upgrade now is I understand Garmin will no longer service a 430 that is not WAAS. So if in future you need to send it in you'll likely be dinged for the price of the WAAS upgrade at that time.
 
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GRG55 said:
If I understand correctly the only reason you are doing anything is ADS-B Out compliance.
Click to expand...
Yep.

GRG55 said:
Your condition that you do not want to add another GPS antenna seems a costly one to me. I understand the desire not to clutter up such a beautiful example of a real classic (and btw I think your airplane is absolutely gorgeous). But a GPS antenna far back on the turtledeck is pretty low profile.
Click to expand...

Hopefully I won't need yet another one back there if I put in a 406 ELT? :/

GRG55 said:
One consideration for proceeding with the 430 WAAS upgrade now is I understand Garmin will no longer service a 430 that is not WAAS. So if in future you need to send it in you'll likely be dinged for the price of the WAAS upgrade at that time.
Click to expand...

That thought has crossed my mind as well.
 
bnt83 said:
They do make combo VHF comm radio and GPS antennas. That are bigger and have a larger base, and SPENDY

View attachment 62636
Click to expand...

Any limitations on those imposed by the Garmin installation docs? I was under the general impression you needed to use their amplified antenna only with their WAAS units.

Edit: And needed the WAAS capable version of their antenna to boot.
 
GRG55 said:
One consideration for proceeding with the 430 WAAS upgrade now is I understand Garmin will no longer service a 430 that is not WAAS. So if in future you need to send it in you'll likely be dinged for the price of the WAAS upgrade at that time.
Click to expand...

Yikes, is there a date associated with that assertion? That's a game changer. If that is indeed true, I'd expect the 430 non waas units' market value to sink like the titanic.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Yikes, is there a date associated with that assertion? That's a game changer. If that is indeed true, I'd expect the 430 non waas units' market value to sink like the titanic.
Click to expand...

Looks like it is only the 28v units (early 430s) that have that requirement. From the Garmin website:

"28v only GNS 430 systems require a WAAS upgrade (which includes other required repairs) to continue to be serviceable."

https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/warranty-information/out-of-warranty
 
denverpilot said:
Any limitations on those imposed by the Garmin installation docs? I was under the general impression you needed to use their amplified antenna only with their WAAS units.

Edit: And needed the WAAS capable version of their antenna to boot.
Click to expand...

Some of the VHF/GPS antennas like that are approved for use with Garmin systems, including the GTN series.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Oh ok, yeah that's old news. 28v unit pricing has reflected that reality for a long time now.
Click to expand...

I had heard "through the grapevine" that Garmin would not service any 430s unless they were W (or upgraded to such as part of any service request), but there isn't anything official on their website I could find (other than what I posted earlier) so I have to believe there is no substance to that story. The endurance of the 430 is impressive. Looks like those of us who have them in our planes will be using them for some years to come.
 
As earlier poster mentioned-- https://www.uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

This seems like the best solution for your desires although you might have to wait a few weeks for the FAA to issue it's approval. Easy (inexpensive installation), no need for new antenna, all your current equipment can remain, meets ADS B out requirements and provides ADS B in wirelessly to tablet if desired. $1500 price point is estimated. ...I'm not affiliated in any way with UAvionix.
 
Really it comes down to what you want out of the plane and what you use it for. Are you in a location where ADS-B even impacts you? If you don't operate in airspace where it's required, why bother?

Personally, to me something like a 140 is about old school taildragger flying and not about going places. Or if you do, look out the window. I wouldn't want a 430 in one, and if I bought one that had it, I would probably rip it out. I'd want the most bare bones panel possible in a plane like that.

However where I am, I DO need ADS-B (since a 140 has an electrical system), so that would push me towards doing some sort of stand-alone ADS-B out solution.

That's why I want a Cub. No electrical system, so no ADS-B requirement. I'll just use a handheld and look out the window.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Are you in a location where ADS-B even impacts you?
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm based under a bravo.

Ted DuPuis said:
I wouldn't want a 430 in one, and if I bought one that had it, I would probably rip it out. I'd want the most bare bones panel possible in a plane like that.
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Me too, but I get the nagging feeling that I'd be throwing good money after bad if I did that. Doesn't mean I won't, I suppose.
 
Survey says... GTR225/GTX335/ELT406GPS.
 
GeorgeC said:
Option 2: Remove the VOR/GS antenna and the CDI, replace the 430 with a plain comm, and swap in an ADS-B transponder.
Click to expand...
This ended up being 7.5 AMU out the door.
 
Yep.
 
GeorgeC said:
Yep.
Click to expand...

Is the $7.5 AMU net cost after you sold the GNS-430?

Regardless, I am guessing that's a pretty significant percentage of what you paid for the plane in the first place. Damn good thing that plane of yours is gorgeous - like spending money on a beautiful woman. :cool:
 
cgrab said:
If you get an ADS-B transponder with a WAAS GPS antenna, can you split the signal into your non-WAAS 430? You would still only have one antenna.
Click to expand...
No. The ADS-B transponder requires a waas gps receiver. The antenna, is just an antenna, the 430W is the receiver, and communicates the results to the ADS-B out unit. (transponder) That's why you need a waas enabled GPS source, whether it be a 430w, or 530, or gdl-82, or whatever, including the waas gps antenna. Now I believe there may be a transponder out there that has it's own waas gps receiver, and it still needs a waas gps antenna. I don't think the gtx345, or 335 have a waas receiver, and require an external one. There are very few, if any, totally self contained ADS-B units for certified aircraft.
 
Both the 335 and 345 are available with builtin WAAS receivers, as well as the Appareo and the Lynx.
 
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GeorgeC said:
Both the 335 and 345 are available with builtin WAAS receivers, as well as the Appareo and the Lynx.
Click to expand...

But they still require an approved, external WAAS GPS antenna. You may have been thinking this but wanted to be sure it was clear.
 
Sorry I wasn't clear, if the ADS-B transponder solution has a built in WAAS, can the antenna used for that be split to provide info to a non-WAAS 430?
 
No, you can't split it. For example, I have a WAAS antenna for my 335 and a separate one for my ELT.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Really it comes down to what you want out of the plane and what you use it for. Are you in a location where ADS-B even impacts you? If you don't operate in airspace where it's required, why bother?

Personally, to me something like a 140 is about old school taildragger flying and not about going places. Or if you do, look out the window. I wouldn't want a 430 in one, and if I bought one that had it, I would probably rip it out. I'd want the most bare bones panel possible in a plane like that.

However where I am, I DO need ADS-B (since a 140 has an electrical system), so that would push me towards doing some sort of stand-alone ADS-B out solution.

That's why I want a Cub. No electrical system, so no ADS-B requirement. I'll just use a handheld and look out the window.
Click to expand...

Actually a 140 can be more fun and capable if properly equipped. My 140 has a custom made panel with a six pack and center stack, two VOR’s, on LOC and one LOC/GS, and is IFR certified.

I kind of blew it a few months ago when my son in law upgraded his panel from a 430W to a 650. He offered me the 430 free and I decided that by the time I bought the antennas, the indicator and an ADS-B transponder along with the installation, it would just be too much money to put into the plane. Now I hurt my shoulder and can’t fly my manual gear Mooney because I can’t handle the landing gear. I fly the 140 into the DFW metroplex from time to time and it would be nice to have it better equipped and ready for 2020.

I am sure this makes no sense to someone doing long distance travel in a serious and fast twin, but taildragger flying doesn’t have to be limited to going in and out of goat pastures.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Actually a 140 can be more fun and capable if properly equipped. My 140 has a custom made panel with a six pack and center stack, two VOR’s, on LOC and one LOC/GS, and is IFR certified.

I kind of blew it a few months ago when my son in law upgraded his panel from a 430W to a 650. He offered me the 430 free and I decided that by the time I bought the antennas, the indicator and an ADS-B transponder along with the installation, it would just be too much money to put into the plane. Now I hurt my shoulder and can’t fly my manual gear Mooney because I can’t handle the landing gear. I fly the 140 into the DFW metroplex from time to time and it would be nice to have it better equipped and ready for 2020.

I am sure this makes no sense to someone doing long distance travel in a serious and fast twin, but taildragger flying doesn’t have to be limited to going in and out of goat pastures.
Click to expand...

It makes plenty of sense to me, my point was more just how I think of a 140 and what I'd use it for if I had one. If I had a 140 I'd probably put something in it simply to be ADS-B compliant since I'm near the KC Bravo and keep the MU-2 under the Bravo shelf.

That's actually a good part of why I want to go Cub and not 140. No electrical system means I can skip ADS-B and just get a handheld for flying up to MKC.
 
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