Ultralights, Experimentals and LSA's

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Number7

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Number7
I'm so new here that I don't have a picture of what you sport guys are doing, have done, and like to do. Hope you don't mind a newbie asking you to jump in and run it down.
I like to attend Sun-n-Fun and spend a day, at least, checking out the new fun stuff we use to poke holes in the sky. My personal favorites tend toward the more basic planes, that don't cost an arm and a leg, because someone just has to have $50 grand in electronics, for a plane that flies a hundred miles per hour.
I like quick, not necessarily fast, and lots of useful load, to go with a wide cabin and at least 100 pounds of storage capacity.
To that end I hated the 162. It just failed in my book, and I flew one about forty hours as a favor to a friend.
The Tecnam is a plane I loved flying and they make them near me in Florida.
 
Saying fast and LSA are two different things in my book. You know there's a 120 knot speed limit for LSA's right ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
Saying fast and LSA are two different things in my book. You know there's a 120 knot speed limit for LSA's right ?
Click to expand...

That is why I said quick instead of fast. You know, quick off the ground...
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
Did you see the S7 rans ? Excellent airplane. Or possibly the coyote S20, another nice Rans.
Click to expand...

I like the RV's and have a friend who built one. I am not familiar, with the S20, or don't know I am, anyway.
 
You have left the UL realm completely behind. Wide cabin, no. 100Lb storage, prolly not.

It is quick off the ground, and fun as heck. I got a demo ride(by myself, yes) in the Backyard Flyer and it was a hoot and a half. No affiliation but if/when I go for an UL it will be the Backyard Flyer, with the cools swing wing.
 
Number7 said:
That is why I said quick instead of fast. You now, quick off the ground...
Click to expand...

Quick as in short field, or quick as in high vertical climb rate? As a rough first approximation, the former can be done by applying more wing area per pound, the latter with more horsepower per pound. Or both.

In addition to the RANS models already mentioned could be added the CH-750 or Savannah for short field.
 
Zenith has some popular models that will meet your needs.the older ctsw model might work,what's your budget?
 
The most popular ones that get mentioned are usually the RV-12, Rans S-20 or one of the Zenith CH 750, although I like the 650 look better (and it's an E-LSA).

100 lbs of storage capacity? Not sure you're going to get that in any smaller airplane, isn't even a Cessna 172 limited to 120 lbs in the baggage area? Unless you use the right seat for luggage...
 
My Sky Arrow can carry 66 lbs under the rear seat, and 33 lbs behind it.

But with an EW around 860 lbs, it would be hard to make full use of it with a passenger, even with the skimpy 18 gals of fuel.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Did you see the S7 rans ? Excellent airplane. Or possibly the coyote S20, another nice Rans.
Click to expand...

The S7 is an excellent airplane.

The Coyote is the S6. The S20 is the Raven. The Raven is obviously derived from both the S7 and the S6.

Just in case the newbie wanted to look them up and got confused.

I test flew the S20 and the S7 and laid down my money for the S7 kit. Should be here in Oct/Nov.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Saying fast and LSA are two different things in my book. You know there's a 120 knot speed limit for LSA's right ?
Click to expand...

Yes, 120 k Vh. It can be 140 kias at 10,000 feet, but your point is well taken.

Vh Maximum speed in level flight at maximum continuous power. Now, let us define maximum continuous power. Carbon Cub fans, you're up. :)
 
Number7 said:
I'm so new here that I don't have a picture of what you sport guys are doing, have done, and like to do. Hope you don't mind a newbie asking you to jump in and run it down.
I like to attend Sun-n-Fun and spend a day, at least, checking out the new fun stuff we use to poke holes in the sky. My personal favorites tend toward the more basic planes, that don't cost an arm and a leg, because someone just has to have $50 grand in electronics, for a plane that flies a hundred miles per hour.
I like quick, not necessarily fast, and lots of useful load, to go with a wide cabin and at least 100 pounds of storage capacity.
To that end I hated the 162. It just failed in my book, and I flew one about forty hours as a favor to a friend.
The Tecnam is a plane I loved flying and they make them near me in Florida.
Click to expand...

I only have half an hour in a Tecnam but agree with you; it is a nice flying airplane.

LSA in general can cover a fair range of capabilities, but I don't know of one that does it all. You might want one that flies as fast as is legal. For me, that is my Flight Design CTSW. I cruise it at 112-115 kias and can run it all day at 120 kias if I want to put the extra gas through it. I've put on half a dozen round trips of over 600 nm on it and it does all right, although it's not in the class with a heavier, bigger cruiser.

My Champ (which I'm selling to build a Rans S7) flies at 85-90 mph and is great for flying off grass and checking out the area.

The S7 will fly a little faster but will be much better at getting in and out of short strips, which is why I'm changing to it. Plus, I can maintain the S7 without an A&P.

As you say, price is all over the place. The older standard certificated airplanes can be bought in the $20k easily, maybe less. The fancy new ones can beat the heck out of $200k.

A major benefit of the E-AB and ELSA fields (and even the SLSA) is the relative ease with which you can legally perform condition inspections (even the SLSA only takes a three -week school). That is such a benefit that it's one factor in building the S7 and even if the third class medical passes and I decide to get a bigger, faster airplane, I'd probably have to build an E-AB for the maintenance benefits.
 
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Number7 said:
I'm so new here that I don't have a picture of what you sport guys are doing, have done, and like to do. Hope you don't mind a newbie asking you to jump in and run it down.
I like to attend Sun-n-Fun and spend a day, at least, checking out the new fun stuff we use to poke holes in the sky. My personal favorites tend toward the more basic planes, that don't cost an arm and a leg, because someone just has to have $50 grand in electronics, for a plane that flies a hundred miles per hour.
I like quick, not necessarily fast, and lots of useful load, to go with a wide cabin and at least 100 pounds of storage capacity.
To that end I hated the 162. It just failed in my book, and I flew one about forty hours as a favor to a friend.
The Tecnam is a plane I loved flying and they make them near me in Florida.
Click to expand...

It's difficult to beat the Zenith Zodiac 601/650 for speed, payload load and the option to tie it down instead of needing a hangar. The Just Aircraft Highlander is a hoot to fly, but they are pricey for rag and tube. I personally like the Fisher Super Koala for useful load, but it's an all wooden airframe and would need to be hangared. What's the budget again?
 
Last weekend flew my Jabiru J230 to Telluride CO and back. Plenty of room for the wife and luggage. Storage is huge. They took out the back seats out of a 4 place and put limits in the manual. 120 knots @6.1 gph.
 

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jnmeade said:
I only have half an hour in a Tecnam but agree with you; it is a nice flying airplane.

LSA in general can cover a fair range of capabilities, but I don't know of one that does it all. You might want one that flies as fast as is legal. For me, that is my Flight Design CTSW. I cruise it at 112-115 kias and can run it all day at 120 kias if I want to put the extra gas through it. I've put on half a dozen round trips of over 600 nm on it and it does all right, although it's not in the class with a heavier, bigger cruiser.

My Champ (which I'm selling to build a Rans S7) flies at 85-90 mph and is great for flying off grass and checking out the area.

The S7 will fly a little faster but will be much better at getting in and out of short strips, which is why I'm changing to it. Plus, I can maintain the S7 without an A&P.

As you say, price is all over the place. The older standard certificated airplanes can be bought in the $20k easily, maybe less. The fancy new ones can beat the heck out of $200k.

A major benefit of the E-AB and ELSA fields (and even the SLSA) is the relative ease with which you can legally perform condition inspections (even the SLSA only takes a three -week school). That is such a benefit that it's one factor in building the S7 and even if the third class medical passes and I decide to get a bigger, faster airplane, I'd probably have to build an E-AB for the maintenance benefits.
Click to expand...

It's odd to see a post where the poster has basically covered my entire list of questions. Thank you! I like the Tecnam and it is an advantage knowing that the factory is nearby (about 90 minutes away). I'm not certain they will always have the parts needed, because so much of their process is in Italy, but it has to be better than some of the foreign models that never seem to have the parts and are always waiting on three to eight week delivery times.
The Rans S-7 really interests me, as does the RV line. I've only spent a couple of hours in the CTSW, but it was wicked fun to fly, IMHO.
 
I flew a Carbon Cub earlier this summer. Short of a pogo stick, I'd say it's about as quick off the ground as it gets. I was getting almost 1,800 fpm climb on a muggy day in July with the (skinny) owner onboard.

Don't know about the useful load offhand. Comfort-wise, it's a bit wider than a J3. I had no problem fitting my fat ass in there. It can be flown from the front, too.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
I flew a Carbon Cub earlier this summer. Short of a pogo stick, I'd say it's about as quick off the ground as it gets. I was getting almost 1,800 fpm climb on a muggy day in July with the (skinny) owner onboard.

Don't know about the useful load offhand. Comfort-wise, it's a bit wider than a J3. I had no problem fitting my fat ass in there. It can be flown from the front, too.

Rich
Click to expand...

Good information. I appreciate everyone for the patience you've shown.
 
Like Jim, I like my CTSW. I flew it to Oshkosh this year, it performed like a champ. On the way home we did a 558 statue mile leg in 4.1 hours burning about 6gph. Average ground speed was 118kt @ 9500ft. That was with two in the airplane and it basically at max gross.
 
Take a look at a Jabiru J230. It's not a STOL bird like the CH 750... takeoff distance over a 50' obstacle is 1166 ft. and landing over a 50' obstacle is 1755 feet..., but it has a huge luggage area that can carry 250 lbs.
 
jcwCT said:
Take a look at a Jabiru J230. It's not a STOL bird like the CH 750... takeoff distance over a 50' obstacle is 1166 ft. and landing over a 50' obstacle is 1755 feet..., but it has a huge luggage area that can carry 250 lbs.
Click to expand...

Plus it was tested at 1640 and restricted to 1320 to be LS. And the engine in 120hp.

Eric
2009 Jabiru J230
 
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