Typical time for tailwheel rating

[RyanShort1]

$800/year for say a hundred hours of instruction works out to $8 an hour. That in itself does not justify $75/hour. You need far better credentials to command that rate than saying it's because you are carrying a CFI non-owned policy.

There are indeed some that I would gladly pay that much.....but they are few and far between.

I'm not disputing that, but I think you are being overly critical of guys that choose to charge that and have willing and happy customers. You don't know why they choose the rates they do, nor do you necessarily know what all factors into their decisions for how much they charge. I see a lot of self righteousness in your posts and a lot of unfair criticism of guys that happen to be happily doing lots of good business with from what I can tell happy and satisfied customers. Also, you don't need anything (referencing your remark about credentials) to set a rate and hold out, but the market will probably decide if you are worth it. What might work one place also might not work in another based on population, overhead, competition, and market. If a guy's charging $75/hr and still in business and you try to schedule him and have to make an appointment, he's probably doing ok.

I pay my mechanic $80/hr and don't complain. If another mechanic came on the board saying that he was overcharging and ripping people off, I would defend him since I know him personally and believe him to be worth it. There does happen to be another mechanic that charges more that I would avoid at all costs, but that is because of personal negative experience.

BTW a $200K hull value policy might be a LOT more than $800/yr. You and I both know that a lot of newer aircraft - Super Cubs, Huskys, Carbon Cubs, etc are worth a lot more than $40K.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm not disputing that, but I think you are being overly critical of guys that choose to charge that and have willing and happy customers. You don't know why they choose the rates they do, nor do you necessarily know what all factors into their decisions for how much they charge. I see a lot of self righteousness in your posts and a lot of unfair criticism of guys that happen to be happily doing lots of good business with from what I can tell happy and satisfied customers.

Self righteous? Seems I've struck a nerve with you. I'm not the one charging that much and I've already pointed out that I am willing to pay a high rate for the right person.

I've known and worked with a lot of good people who charged high rates (but none as high as $77/hr). I may sound critical, but honestly, I take exception to someone charging a very high rate simply because they can get it. Yes, I understand there are people out there who bill that way. And maybe I've just been fortunate to have only worked with people who believed in more reasonable billing.

You know Ryan, earlier, you were trying to justify that rate on the basis of insurance cost. Now you say it is because that is what people are willing to pay.....what is it???

I still stand by the earlier statement that $77/hr is high for basic tailwheel.

 

[RyanShort1]

Self righteous? Seems I've struck a nerve with you. I'm not the one charging that much and I've already pointed out that I am willing to pay a high rate for the right person.

Not so much struck a nerve, just finally worked up the nerve to say it. I've thought it before.
I don't charge that much, either, and yeah, I've paid about that to another instructor before.

I've known and worked with a lot of good people who charged high rates (but none as high as $77/hr). I may sound critical, but honestly, I take exception to someone charging a very high rate simply because they can get it. Yes, I understand there are people out there who bill that way. And maybe I've just been fortunate to have only worked with people who believed in more reasonable billing.

You know Ryan, earlier, you were trying to justify that rate on the basis of insurance cost. Now you say it is because that is what people are willing to pay.....what is it???

I'm not charging that much, either, but I believe I could compute the numbers on some of the guys I know and find it completely justified. I believe in a free market, and that guys whose service is valuable have a right to put a value on their time and experience. We hear so much about how little pilots get paid in some segments of the industry. Would you tell a 777 captain that he's being paid too much and should accept the rates of a 737 FO? Where does it stop? I was just giving a "for instance" and did edit my post above. The insurance cost above was for what I was paying - and for a pretty low hull value compared to a number of entry level brand new tailwheel airplanes. I'm saying you don't know the overhead, or why the guys are charging what they are charging, but gave a "for instance" to help people see that there might be other things involved.

I still stand by the earlier statement that $77/hr is high for basic tailwheel.

In a Taylorcraft, Champ, J-3 that is owned by a flight school and a lower time instructor? Probably. For an instructor who is in demand, has a good reputation, is flying in higher hull-value or experimental aircraft, not necessarily, and not if most of the rest of his flying is worth $100/hr. If a guy is making $150/hr flying a Citation, but chooses to give some instruction on the side for $75/hr because that what he feels his time is worth, let the market decide and don't try to tell everyone that his time isn't worth that. If you feel he's wrong to do so, be positive in telling people that you have more experience and can teach them equivalent or better quality for whatever price you charge and leave it at that, don't be so judgmental on the value of his time.

 

[Fearless Tower]

In a Taylorcraft, Champ, J-3 that is owned by a flight school and a lower time instructor? Probably. F

Since you're all worked up, please go back and read Azpilot's question that started this thread drift: he thought $77/hour at the local FBO was excessive. While he didn't specify J-3 or Champ...etc, I did not get the feeling he was referring to anything high end or exotic.

 

[RyanShort1]

Since you're all worked up, please go back and read Azpilot's question that started this thread drift: he thought $77/hour at the local FBO was excessive. While he didn't specify J-3 or Champ...etc, I did not get the feeling he was referring to anything high end or exotic.

Ken Wittekiend (http://www.promarkaviation.net/tailwheel-training/)was teaching at the local FBO in Burnet, TX. He was the "local guy" but also had a national customer base and was in a LOT of demand whenever I saw him. I could be wrong, but I think he charged pretty close to that for basic tailwheel in the Super Cub - which is what the original poster referenced. Almost the exact same scenario. I've seen his operation, I think he's worth it. So yeah, I was in my posts referring to almost exactly the same scenario. I don't know the instructor at azpilot's airport, but he could be just as good.

Likely, though, the initial poster was referring to Chandler Air in AZ. It is probably close to him and was mentioned in post #16.
http://www.aerobatics.com/tailwheel.htm
I've been there, flown with one of their pilots on a private biplane checkout. They charge $67/hr for ground instruction for tailwheel. They charge $112/hr for Super Cub time (That's good from what I've seen - it's like $165/hr at the airport where my 120 is) and quote $189/hr for dual tailwheel. http://www.aerobatics.com/rental.htm
The instructor there is probably very high time tailwheel, the endorsement MIGHT take less time than elsewhere because of the instructor's experience level, although it looks like they believe that a minimum of 10 hours is a good idea and that's what they stick to. I think the price is probably OK.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Ken Wittekiend (http://www.promarkaviation.net/tailwheel-training/)was teaching at the local FBO in Burnet, TX. He was the "local guy" but also had a national customer base and was in a LOT of demand whenever I saw him. I could be wrong, but I think he charged pretty close to that for basic tailwheel in the Super Cub - which is what the original poster referenced. Almost the exact same scenario. I've seen his operation, I think he's worth it. So yeah, I was in my posts referring to almost exactly the same scenario. I don't know the instructor at azpilot's airport, but he could be just as good.

Likely, though, the initial poster was referring to Chandler Air in AZ. It is probably close to him and was mentioned in post #16.
http://www.aerobatics.com/tailwheel.htm
I've been there, flown with one of their pilots on a private biplane checkout. They charge $67/hr for ground instruction for tailwheel. They charge $112/hr for Super Cub time (That's good from what I've seen - it's like $165/hr at the airport where my 120 is) and quote $189/hr for dual tailwheel. http://www.aerobatics.com/rental.htm
The instructor there is probably very high time tailwheel, the endorsement MIGHT take less time than elsewhere because of the instructor's experience level, although it looks like they believe that a minimum of 10 hours is a good idea and that's what they stick to. I think the price is probably OK.

He said $77 though. Not $67. I would agree that $189 overall with instructor is probably reasonable (actually pretty good) for a Super Cub, though, but $112 for the airplane itself seems kind of low. I was paying $145/ hr for a Super Cub in SoCal. (Instructor was $65)

 

[RyanShort1]

$189-$112=$77/hr for the instructor for air time.
LOL
It IS a good price for a Super Cub. I've seen insurance stuff for renting a Super Cub out solo.
Aircraft prices are probably low because of volume, in-house maintenance, probably bulk insurance rates and high-time instructors, too, and I'd bet that their 10 hour dual package is because of insurance stuff and making sure that the students are really prepared when they leave.. Probably really helps. I flew with an air force Lt. who had been there and checked him out in an Acroduster that he'd purchased and Chandler had prepared him decently well from what I could tell.
It also occurs to me that if it's a big school, the instructor might only be seeing $40-50/hr of that if instructor pay is anything like the rest of the FBO world.

 

[strangebird]

I was 18 years old, the glider operation needed a pilot with a commercial ticket, I had just come back from my commercial check ride, I had no tail wheel time, so I got in a Super Cub with a glider hooked up and the instructor in the back,we took off, and climbed to 3,000 ft, glider released, I went back and landed, the instructor got out, hooked up another glider and waved at me to take off, off I went towing the glider again. So my check out was about fifteen minutes, back then there was no log book entry for a TW. I pretty much taught my self wheel landings and how not to ground loop by reading a few books and trial by error.