Two pilots, different goals (logging question)

mjburian

mjburian

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Two pilots are out flying together. Pilot 1 is interested in building PIC XC time while pilot 2 would like to stay current/proficient with instrument approaches. Neither pilot is a flight instructor, in case that matters.

Assume the following:
Pilot 1 performs the takeoff, enroute and landing phases of flight. Pilot 2 flies a practice approach in VFR conditions, requiring a safety pilot. At some point beyond the FAF (but at a safe altitude), pilot 2 hands the controls back to pilot 1 for the landing.

Can pilot 1 legally log this flight as PIC XC time? If so, can he log the entire flight as PIC (since he is required crew while the pilot flying is under the foggles) or only the time he was sole manipulator of the controls?

Thanks!
 
Pilot 1 can log it when he is soe manipulator and when the other is under the foggles. Pilot 2 can log it when he is under foggles flying and when he isn't under foggles as sole manipulator. Only time you can both log it is when one of you are under foggles. If you go to an airport 50 nm away, I'd definitely log all of it as XC.
 
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mjburian said:
Two pilots are out flying together. Pilot 1 is interested in building PIC XC time while pilot 2 would like to stay current/proficient with instrument approaches. Neither pilot is a flight instructor, in case that matters.

Assume the following:
Pilot 1 performs the takeoff, enroute and landing phases of flight. Pilot 2 flies a practice approach in VFR conditions, requiring a safety pilot. At some point beyond the FAF (but at a safe altitude), pilot 2 hands the controls back to pilot 1 for the landing.

Can pilot 1 legally log this flight as PIC XC time? If so, can he log the entire flight as PIC (since he is required crew while the pilot flying is under the foggles) or only the time he was sole manipulator of the controls?
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Pilot 1 can definitely log the whole thing as PIC (including takeoff and landing). Pilot 2 can definitely log the time under the hood as PIC, and the approach (but not the landing).

Somebody will come along and say Pilot 1 shouldn't log XC, since they weren't "really responsible for navigation the whole way" but I think that's based on pretty specific readings of letters. My personal belief would be that if Pilot 1 did "all of" the navigating required to get from airport A to airport B and made the takeoff and landing, that's fair enough to log as XC.

If instrument procedures for the landing airport began really near to the departure airport (maybe Pilot 2 is flying a whole STAR and IAP) and so Pilot 1 didn't really "navigate to" airport B, then I think letters rightly say it wasn't really an XC flight by Pilot 1.

Best case scenario, pick an approach with an IAF directly over the field. Then if anybody asks, Pilot 1 can say "I took off from airport A, navigated to airport B more than 50 nm away, then my friend shot an approach, and then I landed." If that's not XC, who knows. (Alternatively, have Pilot 1 do a touch-and-go before the approach if you think your logbook is going to be combed over by a very hostile person tomorrow.)
 
You might want to read the Glenn interpretation. but my feeling is Pilot 1 can log it all as PIC and XC time, but cannot log the approaches for currency, while Pilot 2 can log PIC time while flying and the approaches for currency, but not log any XC time.
 
mcmanigle said:
Pilot 1 can definitely log the whole thing as PIC (including takeoff and landing). Pilot 2 can definitely log the time under the hood as PIC, and the approach (but not the landing).

Somebody will come along and say Pilot 1 shouldn't log XC, since they weren't "really responsible for navigation the whole way" but I think that's based on pretty specific readings of letters. My personal belief would be that if Pilot 1 did "all of" the navigating required to get from airport A to airport B and made the takeoff and landing, that's fair enough to log as XC.

If instrument procedures for the landing airport began really near to the departure airport (maybe Pilot 2 is flying a whole STAR and IAP) and so Pilot 1 didn't really "navigate to" airport B, then I think letters rightly say it wasn't really an XC flight by Pilot 1.

Best case scenario, pick an approach with an IAF directly over the field. Then if anybody asks, Pilot 1 can say "I took off from airport A, navigated to airport B more than 50 nm away, then my friend shot an approach, and then I landed." If that's not XC, who knows. (Alternatively, have Pilot 1 do a touch-and-go before the approach if you think your logbook is going to be combed over by a very hostile person tomorrow.)
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That's exactly the way I feel about it, but wasn't sure if I had missed something regarding Pilot 1 handing the controls over and therefore not getting "credit" for the XC time. Thanks for the response!
 
Ron Levy said:
You might want to read the Glenn interpretation. but my feeling is Pilot 1 can log it all as PIC and XC time, but cannot log the approaches for currency, while Pilot 2 can log PIC time while flying and the approaches for currency, but not log any XC time.
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Also my feeling, but it's good to have a resource to back that up (specifically, the portion that reads "According to the Gebhart interpretation..." so I may look that one up as well). Thanks for the help!
 
There are all these threads on here about when to log, when not to...simple rule, use your best judgment - very few people are going to "check" or "ask" the other person you are with and most likely you're not going to remember 6 months down the road. Furthermore, you are only required to log time to show currency, you don't have to log everything...
 
mrkbbd said:
There are all these threads on here about when to log, when not to...simple rule, use your best judgment - very few people are going to "check" or "ask" the other person you are with and most likely you're not going to remember 6 months down the road. Furthermore, you are only required to log time to show currency, you don't have to log everything...
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I don't completely disagree, but am trying to help a friend out by giving him the controls for the whole flight while still getting something out of it myself (shooting the approach). I'd hate to find out down the road that a good portion of his XC PIC time won't count toward his rating(s) and/or have my IFR currency called into question.

This one seems legit, but it's also just enough outside of "normal" ops (for me, anyway) that I figured I'd ask (and got some really great responses) before just doing it and hoping/assuming it's all OK.
 
same scenario except;
Pilot #1 is the owner of the airplane, a Cessna 180. Pilot #1 performs the take-off and landing, his friend pilot #2 isn't legally qualified to fly a tailwheel airplane but wants to fly a practice instrument approach for currency. Neither pilot is a certified instructor. Can pilot #2 log the instrument approach?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
same scenario except;
Pilot #1 is the owner of the airplane, a Cessna 180. Pilot #1 performs the take-off and landing, his friend pilot #2 isn't legally qualified to fly a tailwheel airplane but wants to fly a practice instrument approach for currency. Neither pilot is a certified instructor. Can pilot #2 log the instrument approach?
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Yes. Tailwheel isn't a rating, and so isn't required to log PIC or approaches, only to act as PIC (as an endorsement).

The only really weird / unexpected outcome of the tailwheel situation is that a not-tailwheel-endorsed pilot, acting as a safety pilot in a tailwheel aircraft, may not log PIC time. (Because a safety pilot can only log PIC if "acting as" PIC, and a non-tailwheel pilot cannot "act as" pilot of a tailwheel aircraft.) Probably not intended by anybody, but true. (Usual caveats about tailwheel grandfather clause notwithstanding.)
 
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mcmanigle said:
Yes. Tailwheel isn't a rating, and so isn't required to log PIC or approaches, only to act as PIC (as an endorsement).

The only really weird / unexpected outcome of the tailwheel situation is that a not-tailwheel-endorsed pilot, acting as a safety pilot in a tailwheel aircraft, may not log PIC time. (Because a safety pilot can only log PIC if "acting as" PIC, and a non-tailwheel pilot cannot "act as" pilot of a tailwheel aircraft.) Probably not intended by anybody, but true. (Usual caveats about tailwheel grandfather clause notwithstanding.)
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There was a discussion last week about this - the difference between acting and logging - so not entirely true
 
mrkbbd said:
mcmanigle said:
Yes. Tailwheel isn't a rating, and so isn't required to log PIC or approaches, only to act as PIC (as an endorsement).

The only really weird / unexpected outcome of the tailwheel situation is that a not-tailwheel-endorsed pilot, acting as a safety pilot in a tailwheel aircraft, may not log PIC time. (Because a safety pilot can only log PIC if "acting as" PIC, and a non-tailwheel pilot cannot "act as" pilot of a tailwheel aircraft.) Probably not intended by anybody, but true. (Usual caveats about tailwheel grandfather clause notwithstanding.)
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There was a discussion last week about this - the difference between acting and logging - so not entirely true
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In what way? As far as I can tell, everything in mcmanigle's post is accurate.
 
Ron Levy said:
In what way? As far as I can tell, everything in mcmanigle's post is accurate.
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The safety pilot comment - if I'm not endorsed in a complex airplane but act as safety pilot, I can log PIC time even though I really can't be PIC from the discussion last week, same as a tailwheel
 
mrkbbd said:
The safety pilot comment - if I'm not endorsed in a complex airplane but act as safety pilot, I can log PIC time even though I really can't be PIC from the discussion last week, same as a tailwheel
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No, you can't. The only way to log PIC time as a 91.109(c) safety pilot while someone else is manipulating the controls is to actually be the PIC, and without those endorsements, you cannot be the PIC. See 61.51(e/f) and 61.31(e/f/g/i) for details. Since those endorsements only apply to acting as PIC, you can still be the safety pilot without them since 91.109(c) only requires PP with applicable category and class ratings to act as safety pilot, and you can log SIC time -- see 61.51(f). However, without them, you cannot act as PIC of an aircraft to which they apply, and there is no way under 61.51(e) to log PIC time in this situation without actually being the PIC.

If you think that some discussion last week said otherwise, please point out that discussion so we can correct the misunderstanding there.
 
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Ron Levy said:
No, you can't. The only way to log PIC time as a 91.109(c) safety pilot while someone else is manipulating the controls is to actually be the PIC, and without those endorsements, you cannot be the PIC. See 61.51(e/f) and 61.31(e/f/g/i) for details. Since those endorsements only apply to acting as PIC, you can still be the safety pilot without them since 91.109(c) only requires PP with applicable category and class ratings to act as safety pilot, and you can log SIC time -- see 61.51(f). However, without them, you cannot act as PIC of an aircraft to which they apply, and there is no way under 61.51(e) to log PIC time in this situation without actually being the PIC.
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Yes; in the standard "both pilots logging PIC time" safety pilot scenario, the justifications go like this:
Pilot flying / Hood pilot: "I'm logging PIC time because I'm the sole manipulator of controls in an aircraft I'm rated for."
Pilot not flying / Safety pilot: "I'm logging PIC time because I'm acting as the PIC in a flight operation requiring multiple pilot crewmembers."

If pilot flying doesn't have a tailwheel or complex or whatever endorsement, that doesn't change anything. S/he's still rated for the plane, and is sole manipulator, and so can log PIC time.

If pilot not flying doesn't have a tailwheel or complex or whatever endorsement, it doesn't work anymore. Pilot not flying is only allowed to log PIC time because s/he is acting as PIC. Without the proper endorsement, s/he can't act as PIC.

The pilot not flying is qualified to act as safety pilot without the endorsements. And would hypothetically be qualified to log PIC if they were the one manipulating the controls. They just can't act as PIC, and so can't log PIC under the "acting as PIC of a multi-crew flight" rule.
 
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