two handed flare?

kgruber said:
You don't "rotate" a 172. It will fly off by itself when it is trimmed and ready.

Vr is a swept wing jet term, never mentioned in the Cessna 172 POH.

At best, they mention a "lift off" speed, but the airplane lifts off with the slight amount of back pressure the pilot has been holding during most of the takeoff roll. It's finesse not muscle.
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It ain't a taildragger.

Cessna 172S

VR 55
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I had a real problem in one 172 that ended up being a sticky control column, so I'd definitely look into that. I didn't read all the posts due to a lack of time, so someone may have mentioned it, but I'm no weakling and I was having serious trouble getting the nose all the way up to flare. Once you put two hands on the yoke, it becomes really easy because you're applying the force equally to both sides.
 
Henning said:
Not quite, every time you make a speed change you retrim. You trim for speed, use power to control descent. If you are trimmed for 65kts, the plane will fly 65kts regardless of power setting from full throttle to glide. That's why you use the throttle and power to increase or decrease the angle of approach rather than the yoke and pitch. If you try to fly it down final using the yoke, unless you are on the money at entry to final, you will have an unstable approach.
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The very definition of trim speed.

Bob Gardner
 
I heard Rod Machado speaking about using two hands during the flare in high crosswinds. Not for strength but for finer control in gusty conditions.

Tried it but I find myself using one most of the time, because that's how I was taught.
 
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kgruber said:
...find a Vr reference in the Cessna 172S POH.
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As a 30-hour student I'm so not qualified to enter this debate. :redface: But the normal takeoff procedure in the 172S POH does say:

4. Elevator Control -- LIFT NOSE WHEEL (at 55 KIAS).

So not strictly "Vr" but pretty similar I'd think?
 
kwc98 said:
It is a little mysterious on pre-flight 'set trim to takeoff' to see the line on the wheel and the housing to know if it is set correctly. Should they line up considering that I am looking from above or should they line up if I was looking at them level. That may have been the problem.
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Put it one place and see how it flies off. Put it more up or down in that airplane the next time once you know how it behaves. During flight control check turn around and LOOK at where trim tab is.

Match that in the future and don't trust the indicator which is just a wire following a groove on the trim wheel on a Cessna and they do sometimes jump a track.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Are there any?

I've flown DC-3s which most would describe as heavy controls, and you sure don't need two hands to flare.

Now we do use two hands to rotate, but that has nothing to do with strength.
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Everyone I've seen flare the Sovereign does it two-handed, even 220 pound guys. I sure do. But it's by far the heaviest feeling airplane I have ever flown. It's like flying a car (truck?) without power steering.
 
denverpilot said:
Put it one place and see how it flies off. Put it more up or down in that airplane the next time once you know how it behaves. During flight control check turn around and LOOK at where trim tab is.

Match that in the future and don't trust the indicator which is just a wire following a groove on the trim wheel on a Cessna and they do sometimes jump a track.
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Might explain why my "neutral" setting isn't neutral. :idea:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Might explain why my "neutral" setting isn't neutral. :idea:
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Another issue with setting initial trim is knowing where your CG is. The more forward the CG, the more nose up trim you require for 'take off' trim. One nice thing Beech does is give you a numerical scale indicator on the trim, not just a needle and line, so once you know what trim you need for what loading scheme, you can replicate it accurately.
 
My takeoff in virtually all GA aircraft I've flown, definitely involves rotation.

My M.O. is to wait until the airspeed approaches the bottom of the white arc, and then gently lift, or rotate, the nose to a climb attitude. The mains will lift when they're ready, at close to my normal climb speed and attitude. Typically this happens a short, but definite time after rotation. .

I basically mimic what I see airliners do, and it works for me.

Even in a taildragger, after lifting the tail up, I still go for a "rotation" just before flying speed is reached.

Of course, this is modified in gusty crosswinds, and in a soft field takeoff the rotation occurs earlier and in a short field takeoff I'll often leave it on the ground to Vx or Vy as appropriate.


Edited to add: Just looked at the POH for my Sky Arrow:

5. 51KCAS (50KIAS)........ROTATE

In normal takeoffs I tend to start my rotation earlier, but just pointing out the word is sometimes used in small GA POH's.

Edited yet again to add:

From the Cirrus SR22 POH:

4. Elevator Control ........................ ROTATE Smoothly at 70-73 KIAS
 
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"Rotation" is a jet term, regardless of how it is used improperly in some publications.

John Deakin has this to say........

"""With a piston aircraft, the proper technique is to place the aircraft in the liftoff attitude as the speed increases. This is not a "rotation"; it is simply a few degrees nose-high, just enough to fly off at some point safely above the stall speed. """

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/pelicans_perch_86_where_are_the_eyes_part_2_195465-1.html
 
John Deakin notwithstanding...

...this is just silly.

Lifting the nosewheel for takeoff rotates the plane around its lateral axis.

So it's a perfectly acceptable term to use, and is in wide enough usage to make objecting to it pedantic at best.

In my opinion, of course.
 
As an example...

...watch the airspeed in this takeoff (fast forward to about the one minute mark):

http://youtu.be/aEDltmHhwrE

You can see me rotate the nose up right about at the bottom of the white arc, then the plane lifts off at close to my normal initial climb speed (60-65k).

This was soft field, of course, but is very similar to my normal procedure.

As an aside, note how awkward it would be to use two hands with a side stick!
 
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FastEddieB said:
John Deakin notwithstanding...

...this is just silly.

Lifting the nosewheel for takeoff rotates the plane around its lateral axis.

So it's a perfectly acceptable term to use, and is in wide enough usage to make objecting to it pedantic at best.

In my opinion, of course.
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But it is not a Vr, BTW, it's not only a jet thing, my 310 had a defined Vr of 92kts. Reason being you want to keep it on the ground before that at low flying speeds due to Vmc reasons. "Rotation" as they are defining it is something that happens after flying speed but before it's safe to leave the ground.

That condition doesn't exist in single engine plane so they say you don't "Rotate" you 'let the plane fly off'. On a SE plane I am used to, I'll use Vy as my 'take off trim' setting, and from there with throttle application I bring the yoke full aft and hold it there until the nose wheel comes up and then hold that attitude by easing forward as helm pressure increase until the trim pull stops and I have reached Vy. Somewhere around the end of that the plane flew off the runway. I don't rotate the plane, I accelerate the plane into flight. Basically every SE T/O I do is a 'soft field' runway technique.
 
In a 172 it's all about the trim.
 
Henning said:
Another issue with setting initial trim is knowing where your CG is. The more forward the CG, the more nose up trim you require for 'take off' trim. One nice thing Beech does is give you a numerical scale indicator on the trim, not just a needle and line, so once you know what trim you need for what loading scheme, you can replicate it accurately.
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SWEET! I always wondered what those numbers were for. (I had been using them to know if I was getting closer to zero when spinning the wheel.)

Interesting thread. The most I've ever had to do is PUSH really hard when taking off. Happens if you don't reset the trim before takeoff. Haven't had to do it very often, but this weekend I did.

But to PULL using 2 hands? Never had that as I usually have one hand on the throttle - if you ever need to abort, there isn't a lot of time to go looking for the red knob. Best to have that sucker ready for a quick pull + breaks ... (Granted, after about 65KTS - it's best to just focus on making it fly...)
 
FastEddieB said:
My takeoff in virtually all GA aircraft I've flown, definitely involves rotation.

My M.O. is to wait until the airspeed approaches the bottom of the white arc, and then gently lift, or rotate, the nose to a climb attitude. The mains will lift when they're ready, at close to my normal climb speed and attitude. Typically this happens a short, but definite time after rotation. .

I basically mimic what I see airliners do, and it works for me.

Even in a taildragger, after lifting the tail up, I still go for a "rotation" just before flying speed is reached.

Of course, this is modified in gusty crosswinds, and in a soft field takeoff the rotation occurs earlier and in a short field takeoff I'll often leave it on the ground to Vx or Vy as appropriate.


Edited to add: Just looked at the POH for my Sky Arrow:

5. 51KCAS (50KIAS)........ROTATE

In normal takeoffs I tend to start my rotation earlier, but just pointing out the word is sometimes used in small GA POH's.

Edited yet again to add:

From the Cirrus SR22 POH:

4. Elevator Control ........................ ROTATE Smoothly at 70-73 KIAS
Click to expand...
If you rotate prior to reaching liftoff speed you only serve to increase takeoff roll. What is the benefit, other than style points?
 
Many useful comments here. Thanks. I am going to:

Try to pull back the yoke with just my left hand while sitting on the ramp, it may be binding. Compare to pulling back with 2 hands, perhaps another plane.

Discuss trim with my CFI. The plane was trimmed for 100 mph (old bird!) and I never changed it for landing. I am not sure which way to trim as I come in for a landing....flaps gives me nose up, decrease in speed nose down...I am not sure if I will need to increase or decrease the pitch. I better find out.

-Ken
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you rotate prior to reaching liftoff speed you only serve to increase takeoff roll. What is the benefit, other than style points?
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Good point.

I feel it gets the plane into the air at what I consider the "right" speed.

Short field, I'd hold it on to Vx or Vy as appropriate, then pull it into the air.

But I think I do it mainly for the "style points"! :yes:

Answering a question with a question, why don't commercial jets just hold it on until liftoff speed and then pull it into the air? Serious question - I've never flown one nor thought about it a whole bunch.
 
FastEddieB said:
Good point.

I feel it gets the plane into the air at what I consider the "right" speed.

Short field, I'd hold it on to Vx or Vy as appropriate, then pull it into the air.

But I think I do it mainly for the "style points"! :yes:

Answering a question with a question, why don't commercial jets just hold it on until liftoff speed and then pull it into the air? Serious question - I've never flown one nor thought about it a whole bunch.
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:popcorn:
 
FastEddieB said:
Answering a question with a question, why don't commercial jets just hold it on until liftoff speed and then pull it into the air? Serious question - I've never flown one nor thought about it a whole bunch.
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As a wild guess, risk of wheelbarrowing?

That's gotta be fun in a 737.
 
kgruber said:
You have great grasp of the of the English language. Have you EVER flown a "taildragger?" I doubt it. Just like I doubt you can pull a rabbit out of your hat and find a Vr reference in the Cessna 172S POH.
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I've got something like 1500hrs tailwheel, I own a tailwheel, and have trained folks from 0 time in tailwheels, and made a living in tailwheels.

Cessna has a speed to lift the nose wheel at 55kts, sounds like VR to me champ.

VR is certainly not just reserved for swept wing jets, as an ATP and CFI you should know that.


If you just go barreling down the runway in a trike and it lifts off on its own, you screwed up, and could have been wheels up at a lower speed and with less realestsate behind you.

What do you spose VR with a speed of 55 on the AS tape means on this G1000 172??

I'd guess it means ROTATE at 55

image.jpg
 
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James331 said:
I've got something like 1500hrs tailwheel, I own a tailwheel, and have trained folks from 0 time in tailwheels, and made a living in tailwheels.

Cessna has a speed to lift the nose wheel at 55kts, sounds like VR to me champ.

VR is certainly not just reserved for swept wing jets, as an ATP and CFI you should know that.


If you just go barreling down the runway in a trike and it lifts off on its own, you screwed up, and could have been wheels up at a lower speed and with less realestsate behind you.

What do you spose VR with a speed of 55 on the AS tape means on this G1000 172??

I'd guess it means ROTATE at 55
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Cessna does not publish a Vr for the 172S for the reasons Deakin states. He is clearly an expert on the subject as well as able to write in the English language. You are not, and can't.
 
kgruber said:
Cessna does not publish a Vr for the 172S for the reasons Deakin states. He is clearly an expert on the subject as well as able to write in the English language. You are not, and can't.
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Give me a break, I'm typing for someone who doesn't understand VR, on a tablet, on a internet board :rolleyes2:

Perhaps you should find a grammar board, you might do better there.

So what does VR on that airspeed tape mean???
 
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My instructors always called it Vr in the Cessna 172's I learned in.

:dunno:
 
brian];1550116 said:
SWEET! I always wondered what those numbers were for. (I had been using them to know if I was getting closer to zero when spinning the wheel.)

Interesting thread. The most I've ever had to do is PUSH really hard when taking off. Happens if you don't reset the trim before takeoff. Haven't had to do it very often, but this weekend I did.

But to PULL using 2 hands? Never had that as I usually have one hand on the throttle - if you ever need to abort, there isn't a lot of time to go looking for the red knob. Best to have that sucker ready for a quick pull + breaks ... (Granted, after about 65KTS - it's best to just focus on making it fly...)
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If you ever need two hands to pull on a Bo, you'll be at a speed so great you're in serious trouble.:lol: I used to fly my Travelair by the knob in the middle of the tree.
 
James331 said:
Give me a break, I'm typing for someone who doesn't understand VR, on a tablet, on a internet board :rolleyes2:

Perhaps you should find a grammar board, you might do better there.

So what does VR on that airspeed tape mean???
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I pretty sure those numbers are entered by the user. So it means what ever it meant when it was setup.
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you rotate prior to reaching liftoff speed you only serve to increase takeoff roll. What is the benefit, other than style points?
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Shimmy damper conservation number one. Number two, how do you know what lift off speed is if you don't set your flying AoA below it and accelerate it off the ground? If you use the 'Book Speed' that is calculated for max gross and if you are light like solo in a 150 with a couple hours worth of fuel, you're gonna give up a lot of runway to me. People who 'pull' the plane off the ground and fly immediately have given up more ground roll than I did with my bit of extra drag.

Besides, for the typical student it is completely irrelevant to get a 'Maximum performance takeoff'. If you tag on an extra 50' onto 700' operating on 3000+' it really makes no difference. Come off the ground in a stable configuration all ready set for Vy climb has greater benefit. Plus the nose wheel shimmy thing, those are a nuisance to fix on 150/2 & 172s. With the nose wheel up early they last a lot longer.

I just pick up the nose until the wheel comes off the ground and hold that, it's really not a bunch of drag. Give it a shot.
 
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kwc98 said:
Many useful comments here. Thanks. I am going to:

Try to pull back the yoke with just my left hand while sitting on the ramp, it may be binding. Compare to pulling back with 2 hands, perhaps another plane.

Discuss trim with my CFI. The plane was trimmed for 100 mph (old bird!) and I never changed it for landing. I am not sure which way to trim as I come in for a landing....flaps gives me nose up, decrease in speed nose down...I am not sure if I will need to increase or decrease the pitch. I better find out.

-Ken
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Holy Crap!!! LOL, no wonder.:rofl:

There are three secrets to flying, trim, trim, & trim. You must be pulling 20+ pounds to flare. You have to trim for the speed you want. You need to get your instructor instruction on trim, he obviously doesn't know if he didn't teach you what's been discussed in this thread.:mad2: Either that or he's not teaching you to fleece you in the extra time it takes you to learn.

I can't think of any other reasons he would sit there and let you struggle like that. If I ever had more than a thumb and one or two fingers on the yoke my CFI would say 'Trim it'.

You may consider showing him this thread....

Trim nose up for a slower desired airspeed,matrimony nose down for a higher desired air speed, use power to control rate of climb or descent.

From 100mph to 65mph is going to take 3-4 full run 'flicks' of the wheel to slow down.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Good point.

I feel it gets the plane into the air at what I consider the "right" speed.

Short field, I'd hold it on to Vx or Vy as appropriate, then pull it into the air.

But I think I do it mainly for the "style points"! :yes:

Answering a question with a question, why don't commercial jets just hold it on until liftoff speed and then pull it into the air? Serious question - I've never flown one nor thought about it a whole bunch.
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Control issues if one loses an engine below that speed in the air.
 
Henning said:
From 100mph to 65mph is going to take 3-4 full run 'flicks' of the wheel to slow down.
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Actually, in a 172 with 40 flaps, it won't be far off at full flap if trimmed with no flaps. Each notch of flaps is equivalent to about a turn of nose-up trim. It's not good technique, but it's not quite as wild as it sounds at first glance. And Vfe should be pretty close to 100 MPH (it's 85 KIAS on the slightly later ones).

I'm not suggesting keeping that technique. I'll suggest it's not helping anything. Trim for the airspeed you want, at every configuration change, hands off. Your landings (and just holding altitude) will be so much better you'll be astounded. And not all aircraft have the nice trim/airspeed/flap correspondence that 172s do.

…and "decrease in speed" is nose UP, not nose down. Unless you mean you're responding to a decrease in speed and want to speed it up….
 
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ejensen said:
I pretty sure those numbers are entered by the user. So it means what ever it meant when it was setup.
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Those are factory set.

It's been a while since I flew a G1000, I don't recall V speeds being user editable.
 
So OP is not taking advantage of trim for T/O (and climb?), sets it for cruise, maybe resets it for descent, and doesn't touch it in the pattern?:goofy:

I think we found the problem! Flying any plane untrimmed for 1+ hours will tire you out- you'll be using two hands to flare just because you are fatigued.

BTW- Reducing power or adding flaps (except the first 10 degrees on those big skyhawk barn doors) will give a nose-down pitching moment and require nose-up trim.
 
James331 said:
Those are factory set.

It's been a while since I flew a G1000, I don't recall V speeds being user editable.
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They'd have to be or the G1000 could only go in one aircraft. It may take a password or something but they can be changed. I don't have Garmin but my on my Grand Rapids glass I entered all the critical flags. I agree the 1000s installed at the factory will have the speeds set.
 
ejensen said:
They'd have to be or the G1000 could only go in one aircraft. It may take a password or something but they can be changed. I don't have Garmin but my on my Grand Rapids glass I entered all the critical flags. I agree the 1000s installed at the factory will have the speeds set.
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There is a difference between USER changeable vs. being set at the aircraft factory. Yes, SOMEONE has to be able to enter the speeds for a given airplane, but that does not mean the end user will be able to change them.

As far as the Grand Rapids thing goes, that, pretty much by definition, means the end user can change the settings because it is designed for, and marketed to, the experimental crowd.
 
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