Twin Crash

Henning said:
If that's what happened it's an epic f- up in energy management considering the approach. The props have a reverse lock out system that keeps them from reversing until what, squat switch? Is it possible that a pilot who believes he has a 'trick' to doing short landings could set up a steep approach and stick the handles in hard reverse counting on the switch to trigger reverse ASAP?
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Well he could have been slower than 130, we fly 120 on approach and slow to 100 or 90 depending on model for landing. It doesn't really look like that to me. VMC rolls are very slow. This looks like a snap. I was just throwing ideas as he could have lost an engine, got slow, when max tq on the good engine and stalled/snapped it.
 
Inverted said:
Well he could have been slower than 130, we fly 120 on approach and slow to 100 or 90 depending on model for landing. It doesn't really look like that to me. VMC rolls are very slow. This looks like a snap. I was just throwing ideas as he could have lost an engine, got slow, when max tq on the good engine and stalled/snapped it.
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Hard to tell, I still think he either snagged the gear or managed to give a sample of why there is a placard somewhere there that says something to the effect of "Do Not Use Reverse In Flight". The way it just went like that it required some serious force to accomplish.
 
Is there a chance that it was already in distress in some way? I don't know the airport and his proximity to the runway at the time of crash, but prior to that roll, was he someplace he should have reasonably been?
 
brooklyn26point2 said:
Is there a chance that it was already in distress in some way? I don't know the airport and his proximity to the runway at the time of crash, but prior to that roll, was he someplace he should have reasonably been?
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This text is on the Youtube video linked to by Ben (it may have been added since he posted):
"Video that shows a plane crash at Jundiaí Airport where I did my flight training. One of the engines went, and the pilot attempted to land the aircraft. The right wing seems to stall, causing the aircraft to turn over and crash right before threshold 36."
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There are sirens within 2 seconds of impact; the ground crews were primed for trouble. Very unfortunate.
 
Jim Logajan said:
This text is on the Youtube video linked to by Ben (it may have been added since he posted):
"Video that shows a plane crash at Jundiaí Airport where I did my flight training. One of the engines went, and the pilot attempted to land the aircraft. The right wing seems to stall, causing the aircraft to turn over and crash right before threshold 36."
​
There are sirens within 2 seconds of impact; the ground crews were primed for trouble. Very unfortunate.
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Very sad...not sure what the initial cause of the emergency/engine failure was, but it sure looks like he was in such a hurry to bring it back in that he overshoot final and was skidding to correct and lost it.
 
Henning said:
Offset Beta in the air is the only thing making sense. Looks like one prop went hell for reverse.
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This gets my vote. Either that or the right side of the A/C snagged something... But it looks higher than the brush right there.

I've got a bit of time in King Airs... Done a lot of teaching in King Airs. He's moving pretty good there - there's nothing that as a pilot you could do to cause a King Air to tumble that quickly. Engine failure or even a prop failure are just not that abrupt with a free turbine engine.

Begs the question though - if it it did go into Beta - why right then? Did someone inside accidently pull the power lever all the way back?

Edit: Looking again - that's not a Vmc problem. He looks to have plenty of speed to fly. Too much to be that low actually...
Almost definitely the right engine went into reverse. How? Newer guys who get high, tight and/or fast tend to "tug" back on the power levers - totally without knowing their doing it - hoping to somehow slow the A/C... Like it's a brake or something. There's a detent and a weight-on-wheels to lockout reverse thrust. If the weight-on-wheel failed and he got out of the detent... You'd get an ugly.

Sickening to watch. :nonod:
 
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MitchB said:
This gets my vote. Either that or the right side of the A/C snagged something... But it looks higher than the brush right there.

I've got a bit of time in King Airs... Done a lot of teaching in King Airs. He's moving pretty good there - there's nothing that as a pilot you could do to cause a King Air to tumble that quickly. Engine failure or even a prop failure are just not that abrupt with a free turbine engine.

Begs the question though - if it it did go into Beta - why right then? Did someone inside accidently pull the power lever all the way back?

Edit: Looking again - that's not a Vmc problem. He looks to have plenty of speed to fly. Too much to be that low actually...
Almost definitely the right engine went into reverse. How? Newer guys who get high, tight and/or fast tend to "tug" back on the power levers - totally without knowing their doing it - hoping to somehow slow the A/C... Like it's a brake or something. There's a detent and a weight-on-wheels to lockout reverse thrust. If the weight-on-wheel failed and he got out of the detent... You'd get an ugly.

Sickening to watch. :nonod:
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I've seen the "offset beta" mentioned a few times in this thread -- what is that exactly?
 
MitchB said:
This gets my vote. Either that or the right side of the A/C snagged something... But it looks higher than the brush right there.

I've got a bit of time in King Airs... Done a lot of teaching in King Airs. He's moving pretty good there - there's nothing that as a pilot you could do to cause a King Air to tumble that quickly. Engine failure or even a prop failure are just not that abrupt with a free turbine engine.

Begs the question though - if it it did go into Beta - why right then? Did someone inside accidently pull the power lever all the way back?

Edit: Looking again - that's not a Vmc problem. He looks to have plenty of speed to fly. Too much to be that low actually...
Almost definitely the right engine went into reverse. How? Newer guys who get high, tight and/or fast tend to "tug" back on the power levers - totally without knowing their doing it - hoping to somehow slow the A/C... Like it's a brake or something. There's a detent and a weight-on-wheels to lockout reverse thrust. If the weight-on-wheel failed and he got out of the detent... You'd get an ugly.

Sickening to watch. :nonod:
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I think one of the best tell tales is is the lateral yawning shift at the onset that shoves the tail in the frame in a white flash.
 
Maybe more info........................

A friend who speaks Portugaese has translated the various videos,, and apparently there are several, said in two of them the TV commentator mentioned the plane hit a power wire. One link he sent me showed the sheared wire between two poles. That link has since gone dark for whatever reason as it seems YT pulled some vidoes but not others. Or maybe its the poster themselves.:dunno:....

In this one the wide shot shows a valley at .54 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2ge9LPz5G4&feature=youtu.be

just before the runway and to the left of the frame there is a treeline. This powerline runs parallal to that treeline and perpendicular to the runway. On many of the pan out/pan in shots you can see the power poles that held the wire. You have to look close to see them though.......

My guess is the right main gear just snagged the top electrical wire, which is the flash several people here said they see at about .016 seconds in on the first video... The plane rotates right and before the cable snaps, the plane is pulled out of control and that kinda explains the rapid roll that alot of guys claim a King Air is incapable of by using ailerons only or even with added rudder input. If I can find the pic of that severed cable /wire again I will post it, but it clearly shows it broken and it was located between the two power poles that straddle short final.... Still a sad video to watch..and the sound is sickening as it hit...:eek:


Ps.. What amazes me is the plane itself held up amazing well considering the impact. The front 10 feet or so is obviously crushed but the back 2/3 of the fuselage is very intact.:yesnod: Beech must build military tanks too.
 
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The first thing I was looking for was a wire. That was just too many gs to whipsaw that much weight that fast on any type of maneuver gone wrong.
 
RoscoeT said:
No way that was an intentional aileron roll attempt. And even if it was, you couldn't get that kind of roll rate in that airplane with aileron alone. It was a snap roll, which is driven by yaw, causing one wing to stall. Goes around quick. Even the dumbest twin jockey on earth who doesn't know how to do an aileron roll properly in a plane like this would not attempt one while in a descending turn, at 50' AGL. Didn't look like the wing clipped anything either...looked like a smooth snap roll. Looks like it's skidding pretty good to the right before it rolls. You can see right yaw followed by a smooth rollover.

Plane was flying toward the camera. Plane rolls left from the camera operator's perspective. That's right roll for the airplane.
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That is what I saw also. Lots of skid; low bank, and pushing it around with the rudder. Looked like a snap roll.

edit: at :07 or so he starts diving for the runway, speed picks up and that is why it looks fast. My guess is he starts hauling back on the stick while turning toward us which makes it hard to see that he is slowing. Still hauling back on the stick and with shallow bank, prolly opposite aileron, he kicks in a ton of right rudder. Classic stall-spin.

Or he hit a power line, what do I know? :D
 
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Date: 20-APR-2012
Time: 14:30 LT
Type: Beechcraft C90B King Air
Operator: Private
Registration: PP-WCA
C/n / msn: LJ-1676
Fatalities: Fatalities: 1 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities: 0
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Near Comandante Rolim Adolfo Amaro State Airport - SBJD, Jundiaí, SP - Brazil
Phase: Approach
Nature: Test
Departure airport: SBJD
Destination airport: SBJD
Narrative:
A Beechcraft C90B King Air crashed on final, about 300 metres short of the runway of Comandante Rolim Adolfo Amaro State Airport - SBJD, Jundiaí, SP, and caught fire.
The aircraft was on a pre re-deliver test flight after maintenance work and the pilot reported that he lost power and altitude shortly after takeoff and he tried to return before he crashed near Escola Técnica Benedito Storani (a school for technical education), at Avenida Antônio Pincinato (street).

The pilot was killed.
Sources:
http://desastresaereosnews.blogspot.com/2012/04/aviao-de-pequeno-porte-cai-em-jundiai-e.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otxYSExbg3Q&feature=youtu.be (video of the tragic crash)

http://desastresaereosnews.blogspot.com/2012/04/aviao-de-pequeno-porte-cai-em-jundiai-e.html (photo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnHO5z3huG0
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6777457
 
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