Trying not to be discouraged

To the OP: During my training for the PPASEL, I remember going home after a humbling day of many crash-and-gos and telling my wife that it was not possible for anyone under any circumstances to land a plane well. And pass the Scotch, please.

Yes the landings got better - over time. Just stick with it, you will get it too.

-Skip
 
I personally prefer low wings, and fly one myself. The Cherokee seemed to me to allow some poor practices without any real penalty. For example, stalling with the ball a little off... no problem, it just mushes into that easy to manage Cherokee marshmallow bag of a stall. Try that in a 172 and you'll get a nice little reminder of why you want to stay coordinated.

Again, my opinion. I like Cherokees, I just think they may be a little *too* easy to make really good trainers.

Of course everyone knows that low wing airplanes, and the pilots who fly them, are much cooler and more attractive to the opposite sex.
+1

I flew 172s during my PPL training and I'm now flying Cherokees for my IR. They are easier to fly and to land. The stalls are so much more docile...
 
You’re flying enough it’ll come.

Everybody plateaus a bit somewhere and more challenging conditions can look like a plateau also.

Your instructor will hell you work through it. Relax and put the airplane exactly where you want it.
 
Trust your instructor, I prefer wind versus no wind, which causes your ground speed to be faster when touching down. Cross wind is all about the approach, get aligned then stay aligned. For me, I transferred from crabbing to slipping about 100 feet above the runway until I was comfortable. Even now I switch to a slip about 25 feet above versus before touch down. I just like it better that way.
I seem to do better with a little crosswind for some reason, I think maybe it makes me work harder or concentrate more.
 
Alright, before anyone jumps on me, let me preface by saying I am very tough on myself and have high standards.

In 2015 I logged 15 hours in a Cherokee and was getting ready to solo. Things seemed to click and I was really picking up the skills.

Fast forward to today and I’m resuming my flight training in a 172, have about 10 hours and am struggling to maintain basic landing skills. In flight maneuvers are all good but my landings suck. I just can’t visualize the approach, know when to transition, and struggle to maintain directional control. Ugh! I’m discouraged and afraid that I’m going to blow my budget for flight training!

I know! I’m probably getting ahead of myself but that’s why I’m here to get advice.

One thing that helped a lot with landings was when my CFI had us come in for a landing and keeping the RPMs around 1500. First he demonstrated the process, and said we were going to play a game, where we fly over the runway, at the "flare" height above the ground, and try to keep the plane from settling down to the runway. Of course, eventually gravity wins, and the plane settles down to the runway. He said this is a good way to learn to land, as normally the way it's done is that at some point, the power is cut to idle, and then everything happens too fast to absorb it all, and the landing occurs before you really grasp what's going on. Practicing a couple landings with a little power keeps the plane flying for a bit, and allows the student more time to get a feel for what's going on.
Of course, once one does a few of these landings with a little power, you go to doing the "normal" way of landing, as one always wants to land with power at idle.
The exercise really helped me get a feel for the ground effect, and learning how to just keep the plane from settling down, as opposed to over doing it, and causing the plane to start going back up.

Good luck with your flying! I'm sure you'll get it.
 
And my standard tip for student pilot landings: Once you're down to that last foot or two of air between you and the runway with power off and full flaps, just relax and and try NOT to land. Try to keep the airplane from touching the pavement. You'll fail, but (with luck) fail gracefully, and it may even fool your instructor into thinking you did it on purpose.

I actually chant over and over again, "Don't let it land... Don't let it land... Don't let it land..." Most students get a giggle from that the first couple times. Eventually they start to understand. Some even adopt it as their own technique. :D
 
Even that can be done. Better practice first. :)

Sometimes you need short AND soft. The book doesn’t mandate that one. :)

Agreed. However, according to the FAA, there is no such thing. o_O Although the ocasional POH will address the possibility, they usually only mention them exclusively. The POH for the Warrior II comes close with procedures for "...takeoff from a soft field with an obstacle" but make no distinction either way for the landing phase.
 
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Work with your instructor to hone the necessary skills. I think mastering safe landings is the most difficult skill for new pilots. Here is my list of possible things to discuss and verify with your instructor:
  • Are you using trim to neutralize yoke forces at the appropriate final approach speed? Carrying too much speed on final is guaranteed to make landing more difficult. I've flown with WAAAAAY too many pilots who choose an approach speed that is the POH recommendation, plus 5 knots for the crosswind 5 knots for the gusts, 5 knots for the wife and kids, and 5 more knots just to be safe. I exaggerate only a little. One of these pilots used 3990 feet of a 4000 foot runway to plant a C172 on the ground, I kid you not. The approach speed on that beauty was like 80 knots, where 60-65 is plenty.
  • Are you using your feet enough during final approach, flare, and landing? Sawing the ailerons back and forth (alone) to point the nose in the right direction is guaranteed to make tracking the centerline and landing a laggy, frustrating experience. (I can still hear in my mind my primary instructor shouting "Use your feet, use your feet!" every time I land, to this day. What a difference it makes!)
  • Have you practiced slow flight at altitude to get accustomed to controlling the aircraft in a nose-high attitude? (That's how you will be flying to land.)
  • Have you tried slow flight down the length of the runway at an altitude of 3-6 feet to get an idea of the sight picture for landing? This is what crystallized the landing attitude and control for me. If you fly 3 feet above the runway in slow flight, you can land by just closing the throttle and letting the plane ease on to the runway nose high. You WILL learn to use your feet during this exercise. You got no room for sawing the ailerons between 20-30 degree banks.
  • Where are you looking to gauge your height above the runway in the final flare? I find that looking far down the runway is good for monitoring tracking the centerline, while out the corner of the windshield is good for judging height. I think there is actually a nice video about landings on the Finer Points that explains this concept, but I never knew it was a "thing", I just picked it up during my training.
Good luck. You will get there. It's one of those things that doesn't happen until it suddenly "clicks".
 
The thing that helped me the most was realizing that the basic idea is to fly it down into ground effect and fly it along the runway while it slows as you bring the nose up. It will then land.

After I was confident I could do that, the rest of the finesse followed.
 
Didn’t read all the posts so excuse me if this is redundant.

Many CFIs teach a much higher than necessary approach speed (for SAFETY). In a Skyhawk that translates to a long float down the runway atnd leaves you struggling to keep the airplane straight and centered. Keep your speed in the 60 to 65 Knot range on final but no higher than 1.3 above stall. When I flew Skyhawks I tried to cross the threshold around 55 knots with full flaps. High cross winds require some adjustments but at those speeds aerodynamic braking in the flare will make the plane mush and stall sooner without floating nose high for 1500’.
 
Didn’t read all the posts so excuse me if this is redundant.

Many CFIs teach a much higher than necessary approach speed (for SAFETY). In a Skyhawk that translates to a long float down the runway atnd leaves you struggling to keep the airplane straight and centered. Keep your speed in the 60 to 65 Knot range on final but no higher than 1.3 above stall. When I flew Skyhawks I tried to cross the threshold around 55 knots with full flaps. High cross winds require some adjustments but at those speeds aerodynamic braking in the flare will make the plane mush and stall sooner without floating nose high for 1500’.
Agree. At my recent flight review (first one in 30 years), my CFI told me the 172 likes 70-70-70..."70 is your friend". My landings were terrible. I thought it was just rust, but once I got in and flew solo I went back to the 80 downwind, 70 base, and 60 final that I was taught decades ago and it landed much more the way I remember that a 172 is supposed to land.
 
Quick update. I flew again yesterday and did so much better. I followed a lot of your advise to relax which helped a ton. I focused on my speeds (85 downwind, 75 base, 65 on final) and was following glide path great. I was having a little directional control issues with the wind gusts but nothing crazy. I’m heading back up today and will be working on slips at altitude.
 
"Many CFIs" know nothing more than what they were taught. IMHO many of GA's problems can be traced to bad instruction. Why is a higher approach speed taught "for safety" when the time=tested Vs x 1.3 on final and Vs x 1.2 over the fence provide a safety cushion in and of themselves?? Isn't a thirty-percent safety cushion enough??

Bob Gardner
 
Quick update. I flew again yesterday and did so much better. I followed a lot of your advise to relax which helped a ton. I focused on my speeds (85 downwind, 75 base, 65 on final) and was following glide path great. I was having a little directional control issues with the wind gusts but nothing crazy. I’m heading back up today and will be working on slips at altitude.

Next step, this is from one of my instructors concerning directional issues "Make the airplane your *****". Best advice I got. Sometimes your feet just have to dance, once you figure that out, I suspect you will solo soon after.
 
"Many CFIs" know nothing more than what they were taught. IMHO many of GA's problems can be traced to bad instruction. Why is a higher approach speed taught "for safety" when the time=tested Vs x 1.3 on final and Vs x 1.2 over the fence provide a safety cushion in and of themselves?? Isn't a thirty-percent safety cushion enough??

What?! Don’t we want a 90 knot “stabilized approach” all the way to the threshold?!?! ;)

(For the challenged, that’s sarcasm about the modern training emphasis so Bob can laugh...) :)
 
As quickly as you get the landing technique down, you can just as quickly pick up bad habits. Even at all levels of aviation. I’ve flown with far too many Captains in the past with dangerous landing habits they couldn’t break even after thousands of hours.
 
"Many CFIs" know nothing more than what they were taught. IMHO many of GA's problems can be traced to bad instruction. Why is a higher approach speed taught "for safety" when the time=tested Vs x 1.3 on final and Vs x 1.2 over the fence provide a safety cushion in and of themselves?? Isn't a thirty-percent safety cushion enough??

Bob Gardner

If 30% is for safety, then 60% should be even more safetyer... :p
 
Lol it’s true. Scare the crap out of you that you’re going to break the gear, too.

I remember years ago sitting at the airport on a snowy day waiting for the plow to come and a guy came thinking there was just a little snow on the runway and landed his Cherokee in about 100 feet. :)
 
I can only identify two mistakes.

1) Switching from Piper to Cessna
2) Coming to PoA for encouragement

Other than that, keep at it and enjoy laughing about it all after your checkride.

Hahaha...yeah, as far as the encouragement part goes, I can agree to a certain extent. Some folks on here can be downright cruel, BUT I must say that I've also had plenty of people come to me and say "brush those guys off, they're just grouchy" and offer their own friendly advice or words.

One thing that I have found helpful if I've gone a week or so without flying or am just having a stiff day is that my instructor (who is very good at sensing when I'm a bit off) will play "student". He takes control of the aircraft and has ME verbally walk him through the pattern during landings. This gives me time to take a breather and make observations that I may not be making while the aircraft is mine, and it gives him an opportunity to see where I might be missing something so that we can focus on that. Maybe suggest this exercise this to your CFI?

Anyway, don't let discouragement ground you. And don't let any of the grouches on here get to you either
 
Alright, before anyone jumps on me, let me preface by saying I am very tough on myself and have high standards.
Don't worry Greg, you could never possibly be as hard on yourself as some of us here can be on you.


In 2015 I logged 15 hours in a Cherokee and was getting ready to solo. Things seemed to click and I was really picking up the skills.
So keep this in context... 5 years ago you had 15 TOTAL HOURS of flight time. At that stage of the game, that is not enough to have engrained much of anything in you. You have no real foundation to fall back on. Now if you'd said, 5 years ago I stopped flying and I had 5000 hours... now you would have a solid foundation to resume flying 5 years later... make sense?

Fast forward to today and I’m resuming my flight training in a 172, have about 10 hours and am struggling to maintain basic landing skills. In flight maneuvers are all good but my landings suck. I just can’t visualize the approach, know when to transition, and struggle to maintain directional control. Ugh! I’m discouraged and afraid that I’m going to blow my budget for flight training!

Again, keeping things in perspective, in terms of how far along you should be today, forget about your 15 hours 5 years ago. In other words, you've just started flying, and you have 10 hours. And landings typically are one of the hardest things for any student to master.

It doesn't help that you're adding additional stress on yourself by the way you're viewing flight lessons -vs- budget. We all get that flying is expensive, especially for a hobby, but placing your priority on the budget, vs the outcome, would be extremely difficult for just about anyone. Keep in mind, you might want to reconsider your budget, and increase it. Remember, you stopped 5 years ago with only 15 hours. You pretty much (not completely) but pretty much waisted that money. Now you're starting over.

Also, don't be afraid of flying with a different instructor. If you've met an instructor who you really admire, and think could help you, jump on that opportunity. Yes, sometimes changing instructors can cost you a little more money, but sometimes it can save you a lot too.

An example is I once met someone who had close to 100 hours of flight time, and still a student pilot. They had half a dozen requirements that had not even been completed yet. Their instructor was holding them back. I reviewed the log book and determined what we needed to do and completed all remaining requirements, and in about two weeks they had everything done, took their check ride and passed. The point of this is not to say this is your case, but rather if you feel that you've hit a plateau with your instructor, don't hesitate to seek out one with more experience who might be able to help you through a difficult phase.

As for your landings... cross winds are great.. however it kind of sounds like maybe you're not ready for them just yet. You do need to have acceptable landings down, prior to throwing in crosswinds.

Remember; Pitch for Airspeed, Trim, Power for Altitude

1. On final, pitch for the airspeed you want and trim for hands off as much as possible.
2. Aim for the threshold... using slight gentle changes in throttle to maintain that glide scope.
3. Over or near the threshold, start a gentle flair and reduce power ---
4. Hold if off.. try to just fly inches above the runway for as long as you can.. very small inputs on the yoke. The slower you go, the larger the inputs will have to become to hold it off.. a perfect landing happens immediately after the stall horn sounds.
5. Keep the yoke back until the aircraft has slowed to taxi speed. After that you may or may not want to continue holding it back depending on what the winds are doing.

I know it's tough and it can be stressful, especially if you have placed monetary restraints on yourself, but try to look at the big picture. You're training to become a pilot, and there are difficult phases you'll have to work through, but the pay off in the end is well worth it.

Best of luck.
 
Everyone already passed along great advice and I don’t think anyone was grumpy!!

I will just add one thing. I’m at mid-200ish hours and most of my flights are still pattern practice. Sometimes I’ll do a short XC for that time but still make a few laps around the pattern. Landing is the most difficult skill to accomplish in flying. You will get it!!
 
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