Trip to MAMMOTH LAKES, CA.

amoel

amoel

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amoel
Hello SW guys, any of you have flown to MAMMOTH LAKES (KMMH)? I would appreciate any tips you can give me, specially regarding possible best routes from SAN DIEGO to avoid being over the mountains too long and avoid turbulence if possible for my passengers.

Flying an SR22T with wife and kids on 12/25.

Thanks!

AM.
 
Pray for calm winds or else hope your pax have a high tolerance for turbulence. Also, consider landing in Bishop and renting a car to go the rest of the way (usually less than an hour). Enterprise in Bishop can usually do a drop off car for you by the tower base. Learn everything you can about MMH because the surrounding terrain makes any wind interesting there.

It is not always windy through the valley. What you want to pay attention to are the wind speeds coming over the Sierras from the West. If the wind speeds are over 15 -20kts, it probably won't be comfortable through the valley. Some guys have higher tolerances.

Check the winds aloft @ 10k, 12K & 15K, maps here: http://aviationweather.gov/adds/winds/

There is another website for wind reports over the Sierras, but I can't find the link. A lot of good posts on flying the Owens Valley over on AOPA forums.

CharlieTango on this forum flies (or used to fly) an LSA out of Mammoth. Look up some of his posts.

An understanding of flying in the mountains, and mountain wave, etc. is very important before you go.

Having on board O2 for everyone onboard is helpful in case you need to climb high to escape the turb. There have been times that I've gone to 16,500 to find smooth air. Enjoy your trip.
 
ActiveAir said:
Pray for calm winds or else hope your pax have a high tolerance for turbulence. Also, consider landing in Bishop and renting a car to go the rest of the way (usually less than an hour). Enterprise in Bishop can usually do a drop off car for you by the tower base. Learn everything you can about MMH because the surrounding terrain makes any wind interesting there.

It is not always windy through the valley. What you want to pay attention to are the wind speeds coming over the Sierras from the West. If the wind speeds are over 15 -20kts, it probably won't be comfortable through the valley. Some guys have higher tolerances.

Check the winds aloft @ 10k, 12K & 15K, maps here: http://aviationweather.gov/adds/winds/

There is another website for wind reports over the Sierras, but I can't find the link. A lot of good posts on flying the Owens Valley over on AOPA forums.

CharlieTango on this forum flies (or used to fly) an LSA out of Mammoth. Look up some of his posts.

An understanding of flying in the mountains, and mountain wave, etc. is very important before you go.

Having on board O2 for everyone onboard is helpful in case you need to climb high to escape the turb. There have been times that I've gone to 16,500 to find smooth air. Enjoy your trip.
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Thanks a lot for your reply Rick,

When you mention THE VALLEY do you mean the EAST of the mountains where Bishop is? because I was planning on flying west of the mountains all the way from San Diego to FRIANT VOR (FRA) and then a quick hop over the mountains to KMMH hoping to find less turbulence than on the east side of the ridges. What do you think of this plan?

I will have O2 for everyone and will familiarize with the maps as you suggest. I do have some limited experience flying mountains, but I have flown to Vail, CO and Big Bear, CA (baby mountain) before.

Thanks!

AM.
 
KSAN L35 NV21 3651N11646W 3718N11714W 3716N11802W 3712N11814W KBIH KMMH would be a pretty easy route. keeps you east of the mountains to help avoid wind rotors..near the CA/NV border depending on my altitude i would be picking my way through the mountains by flying over the lowest saddle until i got into bishop, then follow hwy 395 all the way to mammoth. should be pretty un eventful. highly suggest going in the morning when winds are light, and when you leave be sure to get all that ice off!
 
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" San Diego to FRIANT VOR (FRA) and then a quick hop over the mountains to KMMH "

i dont suggest this. you will be flying over some of the biggest mountains in California and very inhospitable terrain this time of year. beautiful to fly over sure..but i wouldn't if i didn't have to. you would probably need to be at a minimum of 15,000 feet to fly that route due to wild life refuge...

also, go to REI or the like and pick up a couple large emergency blankets. they dont weigh anything or take up any room and they are good to have
 
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"keeps you east of the mountains to help avoid wind rotors.."

I thought that it would be more turbulent east of the Sierras than west of the Sierras for the en route portion.
 
true..

but that route is pretty far east and rotors likely wont be a factor at all. you wouldn't notice them until you were around deep spring lake just east of bishop, and bishop itself.

i would rather approach mammoth from the south east to have a easy bail out behind me back to bishop if things were getting to exciting than approaching from the west and having more, bigger mountains, farther distance to get out, and basically having to cancel the trip since you likely arent going to land at fresno and drive up..actually you wont because sonora pass and tioga pass are likely closed. you can drive from bishop pretty easily.
 
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I've done it from San Diego ... pay attention to winds at mountain top elevation as that will tell you a lot about what kind of turbulence to expect. I took the Owens valley and aside from a little chop, it's a pretty easy flight. You have the 395 below you the whole way. I wouldn't want to cross the range from the west as there aren't many outs and those mountains are big. Kmmh is in valley and is pretty easy to access from the east. The strip in plenty long, just don't rotate too early on departure. :).
 
Great advice to go as early in the morning as possible. I'd fly up over French Valley (F70), then jog over toward El Monte, then traverse the San Gabriels just west of Mt. Wilson to Lancaster. My experience is that this is smoother than following the Cajon Pass, and more direct. 8500' msl will give you plenty of terrain clearance. After that, contact Joshua Approach (if not already on FF) to traverse the MOAs and proceed along the Owens Valley toward Bishop, then northwest to Mammoth. Nice airport there, friendly FBO folks, great view of Lake Crowley on approach.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Great advice to go as early in the morning as possible. I'd fly up over French Valley (F70), then jog over toward El Monte, then traverse the San Gabriels just west of Mt. Wilson to Lancaster. My experience is that this is smoother than following the Cajon Pass, and more direct. 8500' msl will give you plenty of terrain clearance. After that, contact Joshua Approach (if not already on FF) to traverse the MOAs and proceed along the Owens Valley toward Bishop, then northwest to Mammoth. Nice airport there, friendly FBO folks, great view of Lake Crowley on approach.
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This sounds amazing (and saves several NM from my plan and others suggested here), but I have two concerns:

1.- Is it not Owens Valley probably the worst turbulence in the area (I do not know what I am talking about, just asking).
2.- Will they almost always allow me to traverse all those MOAs?

I am looking at KSEE F70 PMD KDJF O26 (east of the ridges) BIH KMMH
 
amoel said:
This sounds amazing (and saves several NM from my plan and others suggested here), but I have two concerns:

1.- Is it not Owens Valley probably the worst turbulence in the area (I do not know what I am talking about, just asking).
2.- Will they almost always allow me to traverse all those MOAs?

I am looking at KSEE F70 PMD KDJF O26 (east of the ridges) BIH KMMH
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I've only flown through the Owens Valley a couple of times, on days where winds were forecast to be low, and with a morning departure. I stayed in the center of the valley, at altitudes from 8500' to 10500' msl. Glass smooth on the way up, and what a view!! Coming back from Mammoth in the afternoon, I ran into some light to moderate chop...not enough for things to fly around in the cockpit, but I did pull back the throttle a few times.

No problems on the MOAs. Joshua Approach will issue you a squawk code, and suggest an altitude or vectors if necessary. It's not even required to talk to ATC through an MOA, but it's a damn good idea! And of course, if you go on a weekend the MOAs aren't hot.

IMG_2211.jpg
 
If it’s windy at Mammoth, it’s a 90degree crosswind.

I don’t live in Sandy Eggo, but to the east. Coming up from the south I would stay east, up through Cajon Pass, then NW towards EDW. Talk to Joshua Appch and they’ll get you through or west around the restricted area. Head up to Inyokern and Bishop then over to Mammoth.
 
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Go read the Colorado Springs thread and you will understand that YOU WILL DIE if you do this without proper mountain flying training.
 
skiermike said:
Go read the Colorado Springs thread and you will understand that YOU WILL DIE if you do this without proper mountain flying training.
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Totally! If your not flying a twin turbo prop and a 10,000 hour all IFR pilot your done for.

Mammoth isn’t to big of a deal. Just understand the risk, and be able to say No. To me flying in the mountains is all about having multiple solutions to one problem. If you fly over from the west you may be forced to continue because if you have to turn around you know your trip is cancelled. The mt road passes are closed so they may make you make a bad decision to keep going. It’s all about breaking the chain of decisions. It’s also the hardest thing to say NO.

Watch the wind, fly though the saddles, cross them at 45 degree angles, if you can see the mt range on the other side of the pass your about to fly though your probably high enough. Don’t freak out when you sink unless your close to the mountains and you can’t see the range behind it.

You will do fine. If it’s blowing 20kts or more at mammoth then yea hang on. 10 or below will just be some o there’s a bump kind of ride.
 
Meh, done this flight hundreds of times. You will be fine in the cirrus. Just follow the 395. No need to do anything unusual. Sometimes it gets a little bumpy but won't be a huge deal. Don't go over the central valley and over the sierras. That's silly. Looking at the current weather winds aloft should be very light that day.
 
Thank you very much to all! Plans changed and I am going to Lake Tahoe instead. Weather looks good on 12/25, will depart early and stay WEST of the Sierra all the way to SPOOK intersection and then DIRECT.

Again, I do have SOME mountain flying experience and have read a couple of books that I read before flying to VAIL, CO. Will look into the material again.

Please let me know if there is any reason why my plan to fly this way to Lake Tahoe might be a bad idea.

Best regards!
 
amoel said:
Thank you very much to all! Plans changed and I am going to Lake Tahoe instead. Weather looks good on 12/25, will depart early and stay WEST of the Sierra all the way to SPOOK intersection and then DIRECT.

Again, I do have SOME mountain flying experience and have read a couple of books that I read before flying to VAIL, CO. Will look into the material again.

Please let me know if there is any reason why my plan to fly this way to Lake Tahoe might be a bad idea.

Best regards!
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Great choice. Much better skiing in Tahoe. Actually, though, we are still waiting for snow... I have my season pass for Northstar and still haven’t made the 1 1/2 hour drive.
 
John221us said:
Much better skiing in Tahoe.
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Right now or in general? I have season pass at Mount Rose and already skied this November but snow is getting a bit problematic again. I visited Mammoth last year - awesome mountain where you can ski above timber line but Tahoe (Incline Village) is really where my heart is. To amoel: to go from San Diego to Tahoe - this is where utility of your aircraft will shine.
 
olasek said:
Right now or in general? I have season pass at Mount Rose and already skied this November but snow is getting a bit problematic again. I visited Mammoth last year - awesome mountain where you can ski above timber line but Tahoe (Incline Village) is really where my heart is. To amoel: to go from San Diego to Tahoe - this is where utility of your aircraft will shine.
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I learned to ski, living in So Cal (30 days of skiing my 3rd year in college) and Mammoth was the go to place for long weekends. Yeah, so far this year hasn’t delivered, but in general, I like Tahoe better. Mammoth is large and has some good runs (Dave’s was a favorite), but the snow is more reliable in Tahoe and there are a ton of choices. Squaw has some of the best steeps (also large) and Alpine isn’t bad on that too. Sugar Bowl has some great runs. I am not a big fan of Heavenly, but Mott Canyon is pretty good, there. I like Northstar, because it is close and has some good variety and a fair amount of decent tree skiing. It lacks a little on the steeps, though.
 
Just flew over it. Never had a problem.
2813324e7007b1bb0a549bdc9a416016.jpg
 
amoel said:
Thank you very much to all! Plans changed and I am going to Lake Tahoe instead. Weather looks good on 12/25, will depart early and stay WEST of the Sierra all the way to SPOOK intersection and then DIRECT.

Again, I do have SOME mountain flying experience and have read a couple of books that I read before flying to VAIL, CO. Will look into the material again.

Please let me know if there is any reason why my plan to fly this way to Lake Tahoe might be a bad idea.

Best regards!
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I have flown into TVL a couple of times. Not flown into Truckee, yet. When flying to KTVL, I have flown up West side of Sierras to KPVF before turning east to KTVL. That leaves me over the Hwy 50 and somewhat less gnarly terrain. I like options. I will fly it VFR with advisories.

As for skiing/boarding, I think Mammoth is usually more reliable for decent snow, plus it's just a giant playground. I particularly like over by chair 9. Usually less crowds and a nice mix of terrain, trees, steep, etc. Mammoth better for snowboarding, too.

Tahoe better for skiing and (south shore) better for night life. I was just in Tahoe 3 weeks ago for a wedding at the Ritz at Northstar. Flew to Auburn and left the plane there. Rented a car and drove the rest of the way. It snowed Sat night, and I didn't want to get stuck up there. Didn't get a chance to ski or ride. Love Tahoe.

If the wx is nice, it is spectacularly beautiful over the lake. Watch your DA on departure. Have a great trip! A great use of our planes! Nothing like getting there in about 2 1/2 hours from So Cal.
 
mtnflyr said:
" San Diego to FRIANT VOR (FRA) and then a quick hop over the mountains to KMMH "

i dont suggest this. you will be flying over some of the biggest mountains in California and very inhospitable terrain this time of year. beautiful to fly over sure..but i wouldn't if i didn't have to. you would probably need to be at a minimum of 15,000 feet to fly that route due to wild life refuge...

also, go to REI or the like and pick up a couple large emergency blankets. they dont weigh anything or take up any room and they are good to have
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I cross that pass all the time. You only need to be a little over 10K to clear it via V230. More is better of course, but on what basis to you think you need to be at 15K?
 
cb7e41258f6dc24454baff62be1d54d1.jpg


I hope you’re a little more than a little
over 10k Sac!

I’m a fan of going up through Lake Isabella and then Walker Pass... especially when you’re dealing with low performance birds, because there are numerous outs and only a few miles of inhospitable terrain.

0f0d5c33d23e20178a77a0681a1e7232.jpg


Plus, L05 has excellent food.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tampico Trauma said:
cb7e41258f6dc24454baff62be1d54d1.jpg


I hope you’re a little more than a little
over 10k Sac!

I’m a fan of going up through Lake Isabella and then Walker Pass... especially when you’re dealing with low performance birds, because there are numerous outs and only a few miles of inhospitable terrain.

0f0d5c33d23e20178a77a0681a1e7232.jpg


Plus, L05 has excellent food.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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This is either purposefully argumentative or just doesn’t know the area. The saddles to either side of the actual ski mountain are much lower than 11,000 - roughly 9,000’.
 
Good plan to go to spook intersection. I am flying up tomorrow so you should see my plane on the ramp! climbing up to 11500 ensures gliding distance to both placerville and tvl in a cirrus. You should start descending earlier than you think into TVL you only need to cross echo summit by like 1000 feet. Most likely you will be landing to the south so just make left traffic and extend downwind as necessary to land at TVL. Usually you don't need to go out to the lake unless you were slow on the descent. I usually do not use full flaps and do be careful of the 500 foot per minute sink hole right before the runway. The runway is super long so don't worry about touching down early. If you need to go around you will not be able to clear the terrain on either side of the airport and need to follow a little stream to a golf course and circle. It is a right turn at the end of the runway.
 
pilotrick said:
Good plan to go to spook intersection. I am flying up tomorrow so you should see my plane on the ramp! climbing up to 11500 ensures gliding distance to both placerville and tvl in a cirrus. You should start descending earlier than you think into TVL you only need to cross echo summit by like 1000 feet. Most likely you will be landing to the south so just make left traffic and extend downwind as necessary to land at TVL. Usually you don't need to go out to the lake unless you were slow on the descent. I usually do not use full flaps and do be careful of the 500 foot per minute sink hole right before the runway. The runway is super long so don't worry about touching down early. If you need to go around you will not be able to clear the terrain on either side of the airport and need to follow a little stream to a golf course and circle. It is a right turn at the end of the runway.
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What do you mean with 500 fpm sinkhole right before the runway??
 
Oh a little down draft. It was there today. Seems to always be there.
 
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