Trimming technique
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Dan Thomas
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Dan Thomas
Cool CG shift.
Talked to a guy once who said he got a bit too slow with jumpers hanging from the right wing strut and standing on the right landing gear in a 182 before jumping off.
He said he was running out of rudder and airspeed until they got off, or as he said with a wink, as he kinda made them get off... I didn't ask him to elaborate.
The pilot locks the brake on the right wheel and the jumper stand on it. If he's a little hesitant about letting go, the pilot might release the brake. Can get painful. I read once of a guy who had a jumper reach over and turn off the mags and jump out with the keys in his hand. The pilot had to deadstick to the runway. On the next jump the keys were wired to the panel, and the pilot did the brake-release thing when that same jumper was standing on the tire. As he fell he whacked certain unmentionable body parts on the tire, resulting in a really painful and unpleasant descent.
Ruined his whole jump. Oh dear.
Dan
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
I agree that context is important and it probalby differs a lot by airplane and yada yada... but when I hear guys talking about landing with FULL NOSE-UP TRIM and using the trim to flare instead of flying the airplane with the yoke... that makes me worried.
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
The CG shift and change in weight can be pretty cool. You'll have a LOT of weight with 4 jumpers holding onto the aircraft and then they all jump at once.Cool CG shift.
Talked to a guy once who said he got a bit too slow with jumpers hanging from the right wing strut and standing on the right landing gear in a 182 before jumping off.
He said he was running out of rudder and airspeed until they got off, or as he said with a wink, as he kinda made them get off... I didn't ask him to elaborate.
They ever do that to ya, J? Draggy, those meat bombs are, until you can shake 'em off the hard points?
Well it's quite common to be in a situation where you can't maintain altitude at full power. Sometimes you'll have 3 to 4 jumpers hanging off the side of the airplane and it doesn't matter what you do, full power and you're going down. The key is just to smoothly start a descent while avoiding a stall. Once you start "going down" the jumpers aren't stupid and it's in their best interest to get off the airplane so that they don't waste the altitude they paid for getting up.
The biggest problem really isn't with experienced jumpers. It's with static line students that are doing their first jump. One can sign up for a class that can be knocked out in a day and then make their first jump ever by themselves at the end of the day. Some of these people have never even been in an airplane.
Static line jumpers have a line attached to their parachute and the airplane. When they depart the parachute instantly deploys. They also have a radio on their shoulder and the instructors on the ground will talk them down so that they end up at the airport and not on top of a building.
The problem with first time static line jumpers is altitude. You want to kick them out the door with enough altitude that they'll have a chance of fixing an emergency and deploying their reserve. At the same time you don't want them to be so high that they drift four miles away. So we boot them out at 3,000 AGL.
The key with these static line first time students is to get them to release in a position where they can float back to the drop zone. That is easier said then done. They must crawl out of the airplane holding onto the strut and then move their way up the strut with their body just hanging in the air. Hopefully they'll let go when they're told to do so, but often they do not. We really can't maintain altitude when they're hanging on the strut and we're low enough that we really can't let down either. I've never had to shake a student off but I have watched the jump master have to get rather firm with them.
Thankfully the operation I fly for really doesn't tolerate stupid tricks like that. If someone were to do that - that would be their LAST jump at the drop zone and they'd probably get their ass kicked as soon as their feet hit the ground. I can't even begin to comprehend how ****ed off and angry I would be if someone were to do that. I'd be looking for criminal charges. Safety is the number one priority and it starts with the top down.
It is not possible for someone to stand on the wheel of the jump plane, nor is it possible for most jump planes, as their is generally a step over the wheel that they can stand on.
Here is a picture of the jump 182 I fly. You can see the step that is over the wheel:
Sometimes one of the very experienced jumpers will get out of the airplane early on the jump run and just sit on that step. They'll reach up and close the door so they're just sitting out there on their own at 10,500 feet enjoying the view cruising along at 85 indicated. When it's time to jump they just fall off backwards. It's got to be a hell of a rush.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Ever flown a Comanche ?
Jeanie
Pattern Altitude
l. I read once of a guy who had a jumper reach over and turn off the mags and jump out with the keys in his hand. The pilot had to deadstick to the runway.
Dan[/QUOTE]
~~~~~. I've never flown jumpers or jumped. I have been around them out at Dona Ana airport though. If I was the pilot and someone pulled a stunt like that they would never get back in my plane and if the boss said fly him anyway I'd quit.
Dan[/QUOTE]
~~~~~. I've never flown jumpers or jumped. I have been around them out at Dona Ana airport though. If I was the pilot and someone pulled a stunt like that they would never get back in my plane and if the boss said fly him anyway I'd quit.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It shouldn't. Forward CG, flaps 40, steep enough approach angle that the runway's assured *without* power in my 182, you'll be trimmed for 60-65 knots somewhere around full-up. The trim's not that effective with no power on.
It's not always 100% full-up, but close.
Trim for airspeed. Just like any other airplane. Just gotta push if you add go-around power in the 182. Not all airplanes fly that way.
This is why lots of folks fly long drag-it-in-with-power approaches in the 182. The elevator (and trim) become a crap-ton more effective with even the tiniest bit of power on. 1500-1700 RPM is "nice".
But if you actually need that power to make the runway, you're SOL if the engine quits.
So it's a pilot judgement call. You can trim for and fly the final power-off, or you can come in ten feet over the weeds from 3 miles out. Both are "stable", which one is "on profile" is a different matter.
Even with power on, if you aren't prepared to push on the yoke for a go-around in the 182, leaving the power in a little bit and making the pattern bigger is always an option too.
You'll still have to push. 230 HP makes a pretty powerful change to how much air is blowing over the elevator.
jxdrl
Pre-takeoff checklist
Huh. What do you normally true out at?
The Twinkie R/STOL supposedly doesn't slow it down at all - But that's due to a Comanche quirk. Apparently Robertson discovered during the development process that the Comanches' ailerons are just about stalled during cruise (which makes no sense to me, but then I'm just a lowly pilot...). So, as part of the mod on the Comanches the ailerons are reflexed a few degrees which reduces drag enough that the extra bits and pieces don't make you any slower.
At least in theory. I'd sure love to try one in real operation.
I'll let you know after I get home and can actually fly mine.
I haven't noticed the bad wrap they historically get on landings. They are stiffer than a cessna - similar to the arrow but I've only flown 8 hours or so. I love flying it. So stable.
We are placarded to 15 deg.? or whatever is the bottom of white arc due to the R/STOL and some old STC that was never paid for to remove the limitation. I don't remember the reason off the top of my head but you can still run them all the way down to 30 degrees if in dire need at a short field.
My guess was it had something to do with asymmetric flap deployment in a turn - maybe due to the drooping flaperons and wind resistance with the motor not being strong enough. But, honestly, I have no idea and am going to research it.
I'll let you know the cruise numbers when I start flying it on some real trips.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Only a Twin Comanche, but it is the 1964 version with the overhead trim.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Nothing wrong with that [what you said], but there were a couple guys talking about trimming throughout the flare (way below Vx/Vyse/Vmc I'm thinking..) I wouldn't dare do that. To much risk of tail-strike, trim stall on go-around, and even so its not trimmed for the optimal speed. If the aircraft is trimmed up to where it wants to hold 10-15 degrees of pitch up at 40kts with idle or low power imagine what happens when they open the throttle on the go-around. I have flown a Twin Comanche and it does take a good deal of trim to not be 'nose heavy' but by the time I am in ground effect my non-yoke hand in on the throttle not the trim wheel...
denverpilot
Tied Down
Oh ok. Yeah I'm not a fan of continued trimming (with electric trim) into the flare either. Just pull.
But I also haven't flown their aircraft so ... not up to me.
I thought you were worried about the full up-trim if *needed* crowd like myself.
But I also haven't flown their aircraft so ... not up to me.
I thought you were worried about the full up-trim if *needed* crowd like myself.
It's not an issue of strength, it's one of Finesse. Why "muscle" something when you guide it there with 2 fingers? Which do you think will allow you the most accurate result? Heck, on a decent day I could land my Travel Air hands off just using the rudder, power and one flick of the trim wheel in the last second (not necessary but it would get a greaser out of her). Talk about messing with a CFI giving a BFR when you sit there talking to them with 2 full hand animation all the way down final.
How many for real landings have you converted into a go around from after the middle of the flare? Have you ever gone ahead and put in full trim from minimum controllable airspeed to see what would happen and if you could handle it? How well do you know your plane at the ends of its trim envelope? How much flight and envelope testing have you done in your aircraft?
Full Flaps and Full Nose up trim and my plane is still well under control. I would just need to roll out the trim before taking out the flaps, and I'll be just fine. With that piece of knowledge tested, I can set the plane up and fly it for 99.97% of the time when go around is not in the picture. Going around from < 50' means you screwed up.
If you're a regular screw up, yeah you might want to restrict your landing trim to be the same as takeoff trim and never use more than T/O flaps...
The real question-- there was a "next jump" after the key-pulling stunt?
When you're 11'000' pretty much directly over the runway, it's not too tough to make a deadstick landing. Heck, if someone did that to me, I'd pull it back to stop the prop and point it as far down as I could without getting the prop spinning again and head for the deck faster than I could have got there running. In a 182 or a 206 it can get you an extra load ($$) that day.
If you are even the slightest bit nervous about handling planes and what can happen, you don't want to be anywhere near jumpers. Just remember "I'm wearing a parachute and I have a jump door", anything that happens after about 1500' isn't really a problem (Less than that if I let the jumpers follow me out instead of vice versa
) There was one 182 I used to wonder every time I took off if it was gonna make it lol "Please God let this clap trap get to 1500' amen"... If someone would have pulled that key trick on me, I might have considered getting out after him and letting the plane go to ground alone.
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
When you're 11'000' pretty much directly over the runway, it's not too tough to make a deadstick landing. Heck, if someone did that to me, I'd pull it back to stop the prop and point it as far down as I could without getting the prop spinning again and head for the deck faster than I could have got there running. In a 182 or a 206 it can get you an extra load ($$) that day.
If you are even the slightest bit nervous about handling planes and what can happen, you don't want to be anywhere near jumpers. Just remember "I'm wearing a parachute and I have a jump door", anything that happens after about 1500' isn't really a problem (Less than that if I let the jumpers follow me out instead of vice versa
Let me break it down for ya:
If I'm flying, driving, riding, towing, plowing -- whatever - I'm in the driver's seat. Leave the stuff alone unless I ask you or you'll never ride/fly/drive with me again.
Clear?
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
It's not an issue of strength, it's one of Finesse. Why "muscle" something when you guide it there with 2 fingers? Which do you think will allow you the most accurate result? Heck, on a decent day I could land my Travel Air hands off just using the rudder, power and one flick of the trim wheel in the last second (not necessary but it would get a greaser out of her). Talk about messing with a CFI giving a BFR when you sit there talking to them with 2 full hand animation all the way down final.
LOL I would totally be doing the 2 full hand animation! I trust no one. Still I'm not really sold on flaring with the trim. Trim it up for a nice stablized approach, yes. After that I'll pull back on the yoke to flare.
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