Trim on landing?

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drotto

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drotto
I know every plane is a little different, but I wanted to know where people generally have their trim set on final. The flight school I use has 5 warriors; three pa28-161's, and two pa28-151's. I usually use the 161 version, but will fly in different planes. I am still having some problems getting a good smooth flair on landing at times. On my last lesson that may have been a result of not flying for a few weeks, and (even though it sounds like an excuse), the plane a flew this time is generally my least favorite. To me this plane seems to need a lot of forward trim to fly level, and when I set up for landing I feel I need a lot of back trim in addition to the plane feeling like it needs more back pressure than the others I have flown.

So where do most people put their trim settings on final?
 
I'm no pro but I just trim to where I don't feel like I'm having to pull hard on the yoke.
 
It doesn't matter how other pilot's set their trim. If the plane is sinking when you let go, flick the wheel up. If the plane is rising when you let go, flick the wheel down. If you feel yourself muscling the aircraft, use trim.
 
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When I am on the proper final approach speed, I set the trim so that when I take my hands off the yoke, no pitch change occurs.
 
jordane93 said:
It doesn't matter how other pilot's set their trim. If the plane is sinking when you let go, flick the wheel down. If the plane is rising when you let go, flick the wheel up. If you feel yourself muscling the aircraft, use trim.
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I think that is backwards.
 
As to "where" do I set my trim, I'm normally done after I've established my final approach speed. Depends on the plane though.
 
If you're looking for a position on the trim wheel, you're going to get all sorts of different answers. I couldn't tell you where my trim wheel is set on final other than noticing it takes a few spins forward to reset it to takeoff trim after I've landed and cleared the runway.

As OkieAviator said, the trim should be set to wherever it needs to be to allow "hands off" flying (but keep your hands on). You'll need to pull/hold back pressure during the flare, though, because that's not the time you want to be setting trim. Set it for the descent on final and pull back (smoothly, and as necessary) during the flare until touchdown.
 
drotto said:
So where do most people put their trim settings on final?
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Nose attitude equals airspeed. Pull on the yoke to the desired airspeed, then trim out the force. If I need more than a finger pull or push to make a change, I hold the force needed, then trim it out.

There is no marked starting setting like there is for take off. As I'm making my approach, I'm establishing the airspeed I want for the phase of landing, trim, then adjust power to maintain altitude or descend.

Remember, you trim for airspeed. One exercise to practice is to get up to a decent practice altitude (3000-4000 AGL) and set up power and trim for level cruise. Note the airspeed.

Now pull power for a descent, say 400-600 FPM. After the aircraft settles, again, not the airspeed. It should not have changed. While descending, roll a bit of nose up. Note the airspeed decreases. Now roll it nose down and note the airspeed increases.

Same idea applies when landing. Power settings affect altitude, pitch affects airspeed.
 
Cessna here so FWIW...

I trim my airplane for 75 MPH on downwind with one notch of flaps. And then don't touch it after that. That will put me at about 60 to 65 (hands off) over the fence with three notches.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
When I am on the proper final approach speed, I set the trim so that when I take my hands off the yoke, no pitch change occurs.
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I do the same. It's a mental checklist item to release the yoke and flex my hand. This makes sure I'm not hamfisting and over controlling.

Dr.Otto; one thing to keep in mind. Once you get the trim setup correctly, it shouldn't take massive pressures to perform the roundout and flare.
 
timwinters said:
Cessna here so FWIW...

I trim my airplane for 75 MPH on downwind with one notch of flaps. And then don't touch it after that. That will put me at about 60 to 65 (hands off) over the fence with three notches.
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When Ron Levy showed me that "change only one thing" technique, my landings improved immediately.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Nose attitude equals airspeed. Pull on the yoke to the desired airspeed, then trim out the force. If I need more than a finger pull or push to make a change, I hold the force needed, then trim it out.

There is no marked starting setting like there is for take off. As I'm making my approach, I'm establishing the airspeed I want for the phase of landing, trim, then adjust power to maintain altitude or descend.

Remember, you trim for airspeed. One exercise to practice is to get up to a decent practice altitude (3000-4000 AGL) and set up power and trim for level cruise. Note the airspeed.

Now pull power for a descent, say 400-600 FPM. After the aircraft settles, again, not the airspeed. It should not have changed. While descending, roll a bit of nose up. Note the airspeed decreases. Now roll it nose down and note the airspeed increases.

Same idea applies when landing. Power settings affect altitude, pitch affects airspeed.
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The plane I was in yesterday at cruise does require significant forward trim to stay level. When I looked at the trim wheel indicator it was about 2/3 of the way forward of the neutral mark. So to me it feels very nose down during cruise. I know this is the big thing I need to work on getting better. At this point all of my other maneuvers are within test standards, and I have about 18 hours in the plane since soloing. I am safe, but something about a smooth and greater flair still gets me at times. Especially when I am in that particular plane.

My last two landings were just fine, but I was definitely ****ed at myself after the first two.
 
Where is my trim set, I'm looking outside not at my trim lol

It's set to where ever it takes the pressure off my controls.
 
"...it was about 2/3 of the way forward of the neutral mark"

Neutral mark or takeoff setting mark?

There's really no such thing (that I've been told) as a neutral setting.

That much nose down trim sounds close to right. My C182P requires a decent amount of forward trim for level cruise speeds.
 
AggieMike88 said:
"...it was about 2/3 of the way forward of the neutral mark"

Neutral mark or takeoff setting mark?

There's really no such thing (that I've been told) as a neutral setting.

That much nose down trim sounds close to right. My C182P requires a decent amount of forward trim for level cruise speeds.
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Take off setting would be a better term, for whatever reason I tend to think of it as neutral because it is in the middle.
 
One thing that might help is to go out and practice slow flight.

Go out at a good practice altitude, reduce power, and then pull and hold the yoke for a slow flight speed, something with the stall horn beginning to blare at you. Hold that by hand for a bit, then trim out the force until you can hold there hands off.

Stay that way for a bit to re-acquaint yourself to the sight picture and feel of the deck angle.

Then reapply power and come back to cruise speed, easing the yoke pressure forward so you don't enter a power on stall. Trim as needed to return to cruise speed.

Repeat that a few times.

Eventually you will get a better idea of what to do to get the setup you desire.
 
AggieMike88 said:
One thing that might help is to go out and practice slow flight.

Go out at a good practice altitude, reduce power, and then pull and hold the yoke for a slow flight speed, something with the stall horn beginning to blare at you. Hold that by hand for a bit, then trim out the force until you can hold there hands off.

Stay that way for a bit to re-acquaint yourself to the sight picture and feel of the deck angle.

Then reapply power and come back to cruise speed, easing the yoke pressure forward so you don't enter a power on stall. Trim as needed to return to cruise speed.

Repeat that a few times.

Eventually you will get a better idea of what to do to get the setup you desire.
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This is why when the CFI asked me what I want to do next flight, my solo xc, night flight, etc. My response was I just want to go up solo and practice/try a few things mainly in the pattern so I can get that landing down.

My speed control is generally very good (or so I have been told), and I always get compliment on my ability to safely compensated for being a little high, or off on my pattern. I think what I need to try is trimming out more heavily right at the start of final, to get a better nose up descent and then leaving it alone.
 
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High wing Cessna's tend to pitch up with flap extension, I have no experience with low wing Pipers............do they tend to pitch down with flap extension? I'm guessing they would :dunno:
Anyway, FWIW landing my Cessna 170B-> slowing from cruise at indicated 115 mph getting down about to 100mph (top of the white arc) the nose starts getting a little heavy, instead of trimming I'll drop 10* of flaps and she'll lighten right up. Slowing further I'll drop another notch of flap and the nose will wanna' pitch up so I'll give the trim wheel about a quarter turn (one to one&a half "swipes") and she's good to the ground even with further flap extension, as she slows to sixty or so over the fence the nose will be getting just a wee bit heavy, just the way I like it (helps with a wheel landing if the nose is just a little heavy :D).
 
peerlesscowboy said:
High wing Cessna's tend to pitch up with flap extension, I have no experience with low wing Pipers............do they tend to pitch down with flap extension? I'm guessing they would :dunno:
Anyway, FWIW landing my Cessna 170B-> slowing from cruise at indicated 115 mph getting down about to 100mph (top of the white arc) the nose starts getting a little heavy, instead of trimming I'll drop 10* of flaps and she'll lighten right up. Slowing further I'll drop another notch of flap and the nose will wanna' pitch up so I'll give the trim wheel about a quarter turn (one to one&a half "swipes") and she's good to the ground even with further flap extension, as she slows to sixty or so over the fence the nose will be getting just a wee bit heavy, just the way I like it (helps with a wheel landing if the nose is just a little heavy :D).
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My general feeling is that the Pipers tend to pitch nose up when you extend the flaps. I feel this most when doing short field or soft field takeoffs. Once that plane lifts of it generally requires forward pressure to keep the plane in ground effect. Also when extending the plane during descent you get a slight sensation of rising.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
High wing Cessna's tend to pitch up with flap extension, I have no experience with low wing Pipers............do they tend to pitch down with flap extension? I'm guessing they would :dunno:
Anyway, FWIW landing my Cessna 170B-> slowing from cruise at indicated 115 mph getting down about to 100mph (top of the white arc) the nose starts getting a little heavy, instead of trimming I'll drop 10* of flaps and she'll lighten right up. Slowing further I'll drop another notch of flap and the nose will wanna' pitch up so I'll give the trim wheel about a quarter turn (one to one&a half "swipes") and she's good to the ground even with further flap extension, as she slows to sixty or so over the fence the nose will be getting just a wee bit heavy, just the way I like it (helps with a wheel landing if the nose is just a little heavy :D).
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When you extend flaps you increase lift. So yes Pipers pitch up as well.
 
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I keep a little forward trim in mine in case of a go around because if you shove the throttle in with full aft trim, you better be popeye the sailor man.

It's a little dangerous.
 
Speaking of trim...

in many properly rigged single engine cessnas...if you have an engine failure...simply roll the trim wheel all the way to the aft stop and it will settle in really close to best glide, mine is dead on, it even slows down appropriately when lightly loaded. This saves a buttload of time during an emergency when you have more important things to worry about than spending 30 seconds or more trimming for best glide.

This has worked in every cessna that I've tried it in (2-182s, 3-172s, and one 150) except for the 150. But it was a clapped out trainer that probably wasn't anywhere close to being properly rigged.

If you own or fly a 152/172/182...try it.

It might save your ass one day.
 
That full-nose-up trim trick works on PA28s as well.

It's also close to (slower) best glide with flaps down.

Which means a proper slow landing will also have quite a lot of nose up trim. Short field approach speeds tend to be pretty close to best glide, with full flap.

Those trim indicators are useless. Trim is generally a relative thing. Like, 1 notch of flaps = 1 handful down for constant airspeed (for a 172 -- trim is a lot more sensitive than that on a Warrior).
 
txflyer said:
I keep a little forward trim in mine in case of a go around because if you shove the throttle in with full aft trim, you better be popeye the sailor man.

It's a little dangerous.
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There is another reason not to trim full nose up, especially in a tailwheel aircraft that uses a servo tab trim system, and that is because doing so decreases the surface area of the elevator for nose up pitch authority. I know that doing so in the Maule would make it difficult or impossible to do a proper three point landing.
 
txflyer said:
I keep a little forward trim in mine in case of a go around because if you shove the throttle in with full aft trim, you better be popeye the sailor man.

It's a little dangerous.
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On what? I've done full flap go arounds in 182s like that. I'm hardly built like Popeye. It does take some firm forward pressure to gain airspeed.
 
I just keep rolling in trim down final until I'm trimmed for 1.1 Vso over the fence, from there flare is a two finger operation. On my base-final turn I'm typically around 1.3-1.4 Vso.
 
MAKG1 said:
On what? I've done full flap go arounds in 182s like that. I'm hardly built like Popeye. It does take some firm forward pressure to gain airspeed.
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I think any plane that's had a bigger engine installed will be more nose heavy and more HP could be a real problem, the Mooney Rocket/Missle conversions come to mind.
 
teejayevans said:
I think any plane that's had a bigger engine installed will be more nose heavy and more HP could be a real problem, the Mooney Rocket/Missle conversions come to mind.
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...yup...like my Cherokee 235 with ~500lbs of engine up front.

If you aren't trimming on final it's gonna feel like you are fighting a black marlin when you try to flare.
 
MAKG1 said:
On what? I've done full flap go arounds in 182s like that. I'm hardly built like Popeye. It does take some firm forward pressure to gain airspeed.
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My airplane on a full aft trim full power up requires an immense amount of forward pressure on the yoke.

If your hand slipped off for even a second, it could get squirrely real fast.

I have a manual trim wheel. There's a lot going on in a very short time span if you power up full aft trim.
 
In my school, trimming a Cherokee was done while still on downwind. When you pull the power abeam the numbers, it takes a few seconds for it to decelerate before you can start descending. That is a perfect time to give it 3 turns of the crank. Well, you have a wheel in Warrior, which is not as convenient, but same principle applies: don't tarry until the final when you need to focus on a stable approach. We added the 2nd flap notch on downwind, too.
 
My trim is full back from cutting power abeam the numbers until touchdown, but in my airplane that is still not enough to trim out all the pressures and I'm probably going to have my trim adjusted because of that.
 
txflyer said:
My airplane on a full aft trim full power up requires an immense amount of forward pressure on the yoke.

If your hand slipped off for even a second, it could get squirrely real fast.

I have a manual trim wheel. There's a lot going on in a very short time span if you power up full aft trim.
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:confused: 180 is no different from a 182 in those regards and I never come near stall with 1.2 Vso nose up trim. With trim for neutral yoke on final, just go full throttle, ease the flaps out and let her climb the **** out of there. Once you have the flap lever to the deck you can roll to the trim away from Vx.

If you obviously don't have to go around trim in some more and slow her down across the threshold for a three point or to give you a bit of forward resistance for a wheel landing. I found mine came out better if I had a little forward tension.

What scares people on a go around is that they have excess energy going in, so when you add more energy from the engine, you suddenly have a full on ****load of energy to convert into altitude, and since Vx and the 1.2 Vso you are trimmed for are very close together, the airplane will try to convert that excess energy quickly and efficiently by turning it into climb. It will drop the nose automatically as excess energy dissipates in the climb. The plane does not get squirmy in a hurry, the plane scares you and you make it squirrelly trying to fight it, no different than a spirited horse, sometimes it's best to just give the reins hang on and provide guidance with your feet.
 
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Okay, I confess. When wheel landing my Cessna 185, I don't have neutral trim. It is trimmed slightly nose down. Then when just grazing the surface all I have to do is slowly release the back pressure and the wheels slide on. It is THEN in neutral trim. Thus, trim can be anticipated.

Same thing in cruise. I had a WWII B-17 pilot ask if I kept a slight amount of nose up or down trim at cruise. Turns out I did, subconsciously, and so did he. It is easier to cruise level with a slight amount of nose up trim, very slight. Then to keep level there is only one direction to correct, down.


BTW, Col. Bill Hicks went on to fly Skyraiders in Korea and C-47 gun ships in Vietnam. I worked for him.
 
kgruber said:
Okay, I confess. When wheel landing my Cessna 185, I don't have neutral trim. It is trimmed slightly nose down. Then when just grazing the surface all I have to do is slowly release the back pressure and the wheels slide on. It is THEN in neutral trim. Thus, trim can be anticipated
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I do the same in my Cessna 170 :)
 
Come on folks, despite how much nose up trim you dial in there is no reason to crash if you have to go around. For one thing you don't have to pour on the coals like somebody is shootin' missiles at you. You're in a controlled flight situation and unless there is an extreme obstacle ahead there's no reason to perform a panic move.

Think of it more like trying to dock a boat, if it doesn't work ease off and try again.
 
timwinters said:
Speaking of trim...

in many properly rigged single engine cessnas...if you have an engine failure...simply roll the trim wheel all the way to the aft stop and it will settle in really close to best glide...
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True on my 177B too. Best glide = full nose up trim.

Also, on final I am at full nose up trim. This reliably gives me 1.3 Vso (according to the airspeed indicator and the AOA indicator).
 
I agree with henning. Trim on final to suit yourself. I've never been one to trim way back on landing, usually like to pull on the stick or wheel some. I've never had a problem with a go round and often times have buzzed the runway just for fun or touched down and gone round for the h.. Of it. But always announce my intentions on radio. Always.
 
The proper trim technique is very simple: in any sustained flight regime...level cruise, power descent, normal climb, level approach/pattern, final approach...trim to neutralize pressure on the yoke for the selected airspeed/power/attitude. That's it. When properly trimmed, only a light touch is required to make correction or to flare for landing.
 
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