Traveling Faith Healers' Jet goes down in Wichita 10am today.

yikes. no checklist for 'in flight explosion'. RIP.
 
We had bad weather at 10am around here. There was no fireball so I'm wondering if turbulence broke it and the pop of failing metal is what is being described as an explosion.

20 miles from Wichita after take off (at 4 miles a minute) that is 5
minutes after take off.

Citation 500
 
God has mentioned a Gulfstream V many times to me. Hasn't happened yet.
 
Dr. O said:
God has mentioned a Gulfstream V many times to me. Hasn't happened yet.
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Here. Take this paper prayer mat, sprinkle it with this water and send me $5,000.

Jim, from Seattle Washington was only able to donate $2,000 but God still blessed him with a CitationX for his contributions. :rofl:
 
You guys are sick. Two people are dead.

I'm no fan of faith healers, but traveling between gigs in an almost 40 year old jet doesn't sound like someone living the high life to me. More like the guy had enough business demand that owning a jet made sense and that was all he could afford.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You guys are sick. Two people are dead.

I'm no fan of faith healers, but traveling between gigs in an almost 40 year old jet doesn't sound like someone living the high life to me. More like the guy had enough business demand that owning a jet made sense and that was all he could afford.
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I'm not one to grave dance but 150,000 or so people die each day, this one bothers me less than the other 149,999.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You guys are sick. Two people are dead.

I'm no fan of faith healers, but traveling between gigs in an almost 40 year old jet doesn't sound like someone living the high life to me. More like the guy had enough business demand that owning a jet made sense and that was all he could afford.
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Death happens every day. As a faith healer, he made a living off the backs of the gullible. I find the manner of his death ironic, given his high bandwidth connection to God.

On the flip side, he most likely experienced either no, or at the most only seconds, of pain. He transitioned directly from working for God in this life to seeing God in the next, without any of the long dragged out pain and suffering frequently associated with death. He went out doing what he preached: doing the Lord's work. If he ever deserved kudos for anything, this was the time.

And popcorn is tasty. :popcorn:
 
Many days I am not sure god exists as I was brought up to believe in Catholic church or Baptist church I converted to when I married a Baptist preachers daughter.

So I have mixed feeling about this guy. I know I am not his judge.

On one hand he could well have healed that is between his patience and god. I know nothing about his successes.

On the other hand he could have been a crook or just wrong headily a egotistic person who actually believed his own illusions. But even then he might well have performed some real good.

I think a phoney faith healer is probably about as accurate as a doctor or surgeon these days. So I am not going to condemn this mans life nor his calling, nor will I seriously doubt his intentions.

In any case the pilot was just doing his job. RIP.

It did seem ironic to me as it does to most of you.
 
I made a comment earlier and deleted it, so I'll comment on the profession.

I will just say that this profession IMO is absolutely the lowest on earth. I have far more respect for a thief, terrorist, hit man, you name it. Showing up at someones most desperate moment, taking all the money from their estate, food out of their children's mouths, the house, you name it. All with the promise of healing them when they know 100% that they don't have the power to heal any more than the fortune teller at the fair can see the future. Then flying off in the jet leaving the family the clean up the mess and the victim penniless. The only thing that tops that is doing it with a sickening smug piety.
 
I echo your same sentiment about some in the medical and drug community. And for the life of me I do not see a difference between the two.
 
"
Dufresne ran a website that encouraged his followers to donate monthly to his Eagle Partner Club to "fund an aviation department of Ed Dufresne Ministries" to allow him to preach and conduct faith healing in other countries. Dufresne says on the fundraising page, which is embedded with video of a small private plane flying and taxiing, that he has 11 million airline miles "on his bones" and adds that he has been called as a traveling minister to spend 80 percent of his time away from home.
"As you can imagine, flying this many miles commercially has many challenges. Several years ago, God spoke to me about creating a room of anointing in the sky. I realized He was talking to me about changing the way in which I travel to cater to the assignment and anointing He has placed on my life," he wrote."

What a arrogent, self serving ****ole.....

I bet he had NOT paid his income taxes for years either...:no::nonod::mad:
 
Dunno I bet he gave great placebo and placebo is powerful stuff. Even when placebo fails to cure if gives peace of mind to the end of the road. OK the guy was likely a grade A shyster but to be flying around in a jet he must have delivered value to somebody.
 
N801BH said:
I bet he had NOT paid his income taxes for years either...:no::nonod::mad:
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Why should he pay income tax ? Faith healing is his 'ministry', all income and expenses are 'mission related' and not part of the income tax system. Silly wabbit.
 
N801BH said:
Yeah......

Just like Jimmie Bakker, Or Jimmie Swaggart, Or Jim Jones., Or David Corresh..
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The first two did not get anyone killed. They actually did a bit of good. Jones had suicide murder squads and Corresh did not kill anyone either but the ATF picked that fight and blew up in everyone's faces which also later fueled the Oklahoma City Bomber to attack the IRS/FBI/ATF offices in OKC.
 
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I was in ICT yesterday @11:00. At 4000 ft
28 kts out of the south at 3500 ft, 30 kts out of
the north. Icing and moderate turbulence in a Sovereign.
Dave
 
N801BH said:
Horsecrap..... Bakker and Swaggart were responsible for several suicides caused by their greedyness..
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If you kill yourself. The only person responsible is "you". I'm not going to white knight for Bakker or Swaggart, but suicide is 100% on you.
 
I seem to recall Jim Bakker setup some Disneyland for good god loving people and it was ground breaking. Then they added a retirement villa where you bought in or made donations so that you could live there the rest of your life.

I guess there were more doners than units to live in and the government found it a pyramid scheme. True believers are easy victims.

I'm not sure it was done in malice or naivete....many of these believers ministers always feel god will deliver the answer tomorrow. That is powerful but it is also a trap as the rest of us with our feet on the ground have to go by the rules of the law.

I do not believe Bakker set out to be a fraud or take folks retirement for his own betterment. The money went into the kingdom he built.

So I would not put these four people in the same class. Swaggert was unfaithful but I do not recall any financial dealings connected to him other than him and Falwell got into it over control of his church when he came back from sole searching.

The only thing these four men had in common is claimed faith.
 
I don't see much irony, and besides his followers will no doubt accept it as God's will ("The Lord needed him in heaven", etc).
What would have been ironic would be if he'd died from cancer. :wink2:
But I only read these posts to find out what happened, and why. A destroyed airplane and dead pilot... :(
 
If you believe in God, you might believe that He heals. If you believe He heals, it's probably not a stretch for you to believe that it's through those that are called to spread his message. The fact that some make their living that way has no bearing on their calling's legitimacy to me.
 
KeithASanford said:
If you believe in God, you might believe that He heals. If you believe He heals, it's probably not a stretch for you to believe that it's through those that are called to spread his message. The fact that some make their living that way has no bearing on their calling's legitimacy to me.
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Many people can be convinced of many things by smooth talkers. Doesn't have to be religious - it can be scams like investments or other things. But this guy preyed upon people at the very lowest and most vulnerable point in their lives.

And let's assume for a moment that he actually believed what he preached - that god was channeling healing power to believers through him. Over time he has to see the evidence mounting right in front of him that the sicknesses he is able to heal the most are those with no physical evidence. No obvious bumps or lesions or open wounds, etc. When he gets to the point where he's flying around the country in a "ministry supported aircraft", he knows that he's selling snake oil to rubes.
 
Every time I think of faith healers I think of that one scene in Borat
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Many people can be convinced of many things by smooth talkers. Doesn't have to be religious - it can be scams like investments or other things. But this guy preyed upon people at the very lowest and most vulnerable point in their lives.

And let's assume for a moment that he actually believed what he preached - that god was channeling healing power to believers through him. Over time he has to see the evidence mounting right in front of him that the sicknesses he is able to heal the most are those with no physical evidence. No obvious bumps or lesions or open wounds, etc. When he gets to the point where he's flying around the country in a "ministry supported aircraft", he knows that he's selling snake oil to rubes.
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They might not know if they are super narcissists they can believe they have the power. Or they are sociopaths and take great joy in fleecing the nearly dead.
 
d.grimm said:
I was in ICT yesterday @11:00. At 4000 ft
28 kts out of the south at 3500 ft, 30 kts out of
the north. Icing and moderate turbulence in a Sovereign.
Dave
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From another board, apparently a KC-135 that departed shortly after reported severe icing in the climb.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Many people can be convinced of many things by smooth talkers. Doesn't have to be religious - it can be scams like investments or other things. But this guy preyed upon people at the very lowest and most vulnerable point in their lives.
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There's no "smooth talk" in scripture, but if you don't believe the Bible to be inspired by God, I could see how one would interpret it that way. Saying that this guy preyed on people is like saying that infomercials and home shopping channels prey on people. At some point, people make their own choices to believe what's being said. Why do you assume that people seeking hope are vulnerable? Are cancer patients who take part in a clinical trial as a last effort to be "healed" being taken advantage of? How is it different? It's about belief, is it not?

Rigged4Flight said:
And let's assume for a moment that he actually believed what he preached - that god was channeling healing power to believers through him. Over time he has to see the evidence mounting right in front of him that the sicknesses he is able to heal the most are those with no physical evidence. No obvious bumps or lesions or open wounds, etc.
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The role of the faith healer as I understand it, as the bible teaches, is to stir the faith of the congregation, enabling believers to receive healing. Why are you assuming there is never any evidence of healing? Have you ever been to a faith healing service?

Rigged4Flight said:
When he gets to the point where he's flying around the country in a "ministry supported aircraft", he knows that he's selling snake oil to rubes.
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How do you suppose he should travel, by donkey? Or are you one of those people who believe that he should serve in poverty like real servants of God? If the demands of his ministry cause him to travel by plane, couldn't he reach more people over a period of time and therefore do his job better? If this guy sincerely believes he had a calling on his life to serve God in this way and to deliver the good news of redemption, who am I to judge him? And for the record, I don't think Christians are so naive as to think that a tragic plane crash was somehow God's will. If their belief basis is the bible, they'd know better.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I echo your same sentiment about some in the medical and drug community. And for the life of me I do not see a difference between the two.
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I dunno. A nurse practitioner setting a bone or stitching a gash, or an aspirin or Tylenol used to relieve some pain hardly seems nefarious nor predatory.
 
KeithASanford said:
There's no "smooth talk" in scripture, but if you don't believe the Bible to be inspired by God, I could see how one would interpret it that way. Saying that this guy preyed on people is like saying that infomercials and home shopping channels prey on people. At some point, people make their own choices to believe what's being said. Why do you assume that people seeking hope are vulnerable? Are cancer patients who take part in a clinical trial as a last effort to be "healed" being taken advantage of? How is it different? It's about belief, is it not?



The role of the faith healer as I understand it, as the bible teaches, is to stir the faith of the congregation, enabling believers to receive healing. Why are you assuming there is never any evidence of healing? Have you ever been to a faith healing service?



How do you suppose he should travel, by donkey? Or are you one of those people who believe that he should serve in poverty like real servants of God? If the demands of his ministry cause him to travel by plane, couldn't he reach more people over a period of time and therefore do his job better? If this guy sincerely believes he had a calling on his life to serve God in this way and to deliver the good news of redemption, who am I to judge him? And for the record, I don't think Christians are so naive as to think that a tragic plane crash was somehow God's will. If their belief basis is the bible, they'd know better.
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Bernie Madoff is in prison, this guy wasn't. There's no distinguishable difference between the two. They're both selling something that doesn't exist. Just because people were stupid enough to send Madoff money for a "too good to be true" investment, didn't make it less illegal.

Knowing what I know know, I'd still send my money to Bernie over this guy. At least with Bernie the courts might get some of it back for you.
 
bartmc said:
Bernie Madoff is in prison, this guy wasn't. There's no distinguishable difference between the two. They're both selling something that doesn't exist. Just because people were stupid enough to send Madoff money for a "too good to be true" investment, didn't make it less illegal.

Knowing what I know know, I'd still send my money to Bernie over this guy. At least with Bernie the courts might get some of it back for you.
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Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People that send money to a ministry to "purchase" a healing have way more problems than what ails them medically. That's as ridiculous as the Medicis funding the Catholic church because they thought they were buying seats on the throne next to Jesus Christ.

More often, people contribute to ministries because the good news of redemption is being spread. If they believe that way, they could care less if you think they're stupid. Bernie Madoff is offering no one peace of mind on their deathbed.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Death happens every day. As a faith healer, he made a living off the backs of the gullible. I find the manner of his death ironic, given his high bandwidth connection to God.
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How "gullible" his supporters were is all a matter of perspective. I would say that the folks who buy magic elixirs to cure cancer and other diseases, peddled by people who claim that their "cures" would be scientifically proven if not for some grand conspiracy, are more gullible.

In either case, people are free to decide to whom they want to send their money, and for what reason. That's a much better option than the alternative.

I'm not going to defend the guy's practices because I know nothing about him, but I will say that the "prosperity gospel" is not biblical. Never does God promise that His followers will always find prosperity, or avoid suffering, especially in return for sending someone money. The Bible teaches that God works for His desires, not ours, which is a concept that I suspect non-believers (and many believers) find to be troubling. I will also say that "grave dancing" for someone simply because you happen to dislike or disagree with them is reprehensible by any reasonable standard.

The Christian church in all of its forms throughout history has a far better track record of changing people's lives for the better than any other entity or effort, through both faith and through science. With that being said, it's important to note that God is perfect, but the church is not. The Bible, read within full historical context, helps us identify the difference, and we have a responsibility to learn and recognize that difference.


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
..... The Bible, read within full historical context, helps us identify the difference, and we have a responsibility to learn and recognize that difference.


JKG
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Which version of the Bible .:dunno::dunno:

It has been rewritten hundreds of times of the last 2000 years to fit one religions beliefs and to cast doubt on other religions...
If God was perfect, he would not have allowed that to happen..:no:

As for your comment that religion has saved more people then hurt them,, I remind you.... More people have been killed fighting over religion in the last 2000 years then all the World Wars combined...

So much for God protecting his flock..:mad2:
 
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Two data points:

I was in Harrison, AR when I did my primary training. At that time Harrison was the most convenient "real" airport to Branson. 6,000' with an ILS approach. The private jets of Branson's entertainers would regularly use Harrison, including religious "entertainers". Remember, Jim Baker had a Theater in Branson for a while and there were other religious entertainment venues in town at the time (late 90's, early 00's). I was always amazed at the size and number of really nice jets (those that make a Citation look like a Yugo) that would be sitting on the ramp.

Owned by ministries.

At least one every weekend.

Then I was in Springfield, MO when I did my instrument training. My instructor was a local corporate pilot who was formerly employed as the Assembly of God's pilot (the AG world headquarters is in Springfield). He told me that the purpose of many of his AG flights was to fly the church elders around the country to visit dying "parishioners" (or whatever they're called) and the elders would attempt to convince the dying individual to donate their wealth/estate to the AG.

He said the money was good but he had to quit after a few years because he just couldn't stomach it any more.

Religion, like alcohol, drugs, and tobacco, is simply a crutch to help the weak of mind make it through the day. A mental illness so to speak.

And we're all weak of mind and have a certain degree of mental illness. I'll stick with beer thanks.
 
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timwinters said:
.....Religion, like alcohol, drugs, and tobacco, is simply a crutch to help the weak of mind make it through the day.....
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Truer words were never spoken........

Amen, praise the lord...... and oh yeah... Make that check out to my congregation please..:yes::D
 
timwinters said:
Religion, like alcohol, drugs, and tobacco, is simply a crutch to help the weak of mind make it through the day. A mental illness so to speak.
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Wow. I couldn't imagine ever comparing religion to drugs. An anti drug maybe.

I don't understand the huge disconnect with our culture and religion whatever it may be. I believe our society would be better if everyone "including me" spent more time following our chosen religion. I myself believe in God, such as all my descendant and the great founders of our country.

RIP and God bless to those involved in this accident. I hope we hear the outcome and can learn from this. Definitely a scary situation.
 
JGoodish said:
The Christian church in all of its forms throughout history has a far better track record of changing people's lives for the better than any other entity or effort, through both faith and through science.
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I'm a believer. I don't place my faith in an organized religion or in a man that puts his pants on the same way I do. I'm not going to pay a priest to grease my way in to heaven, and I'm not going to send in my donation to some dial-a-prayer hotline, and I'm not going to fund some guy's private jet so he can go around the country telling people that if they just believe more fervently and demonstrate their faith by giving to the Lord he will show them God's blessings by healing their sick.

With that being said, it's important to note that God is perfect, but the church is not. The Bible, read within full historical context, helps us identify the difference, and we have a responsibility to learn and recognize that difference.
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Clowns like this one attract people with loud noise and spectacular fire, and people in need of a miracle will come hoping that the man behind all that noise and fire will perform a miracle in their life. They'll give everything they have to get that miracle. And this clown will take everything they have to give and he'll tell them they are healed. And the people will go home and they will struggle to pay their bills and they will tell their doctors they no longer need their services and they will suffer in silence because the fault must lie with them and if they only believed harder or gave more then God would bless them with the miracle that this man promised them. But they believed a false prophet. He's a wolf among the sheep and he's robbing these people of their faith and their money.

God isn't in the noise. God isn't in the fire. God is in the still small voice. But the world can't hear it because attention whores like this clown drown out the actual miracle: that God loves us, just like we are. We don't have to sell all of our possessions or walk around in snake pits or do any number of idiotic things that people do in the name of religion. All of that takes the focus away from the real miracle, and it's a crying shame.
 
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