Transponder setting in IMC while in Class G

Cap'n Jack said:
Another question- I think ATC can clear an IFR plane into class G airspace (subject to terrain), but the pilots use reporting points to let ATC know where they are? If true, I suppose they assume other planes aren't flying IMC, or see & avoid would hold.
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No need for position reporting in Class G airspace. ATC doesn't care where you are, they have no responsibility or authority for separation, you're completely on your own.

Can an IFR flight be cleared into Class G?
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IFR flights can be cleared through Class G airspace only when requested by the pilot. A route and altitude filed through Class G airspace is considered to be such a request.
 
gismo said:
It's my understanding that you can be on an IFR clearance inside class G but that the "clearance" doesn't provide anything besides separation from other IFR traffic.
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An IFR clearance through Class G airspace provides no separation at all.

Certainly this is the case when clerared for an approach that penetrates class G in IMC.
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Where approaches penetrate Class G airspace there isn't enough room to operate IFR in that Class G airspace without a clearance. Any IFR aircraft there will be either on an approach or departure clearance and none will be issued while another aircraft is on an approach.

Seems to me the clearances I've received when launching into class G included the phrase "upon entering controlled airspace" so maybe the clearance doesn't really exist until then.
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And that phrase was probably immediately followed by "fly heading nnn". At untowered fields outside of surface areas ATC cannot specify direction of takeoff or direction of turns after takeoff. If it's necessary to specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff it must be issued so as to apply only within controlled airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
IFR flights can be cleared through Class G airspace only when requested by the pilot. A route and altitude filed through Class G airspace is considered to be such a request.
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While ATC can issue that, the pilot should be very much aware that this is essentally a clearance to depart and reenter controlled airspace. By definition, a "clearance" is "An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace." From a practical standpoint, all this means is that you have ATC's permission to re-enter controlled airspace on the other side of the G-space, not that you are cleared through the uncontrolled airspace, since ATC cannot "clear" you through uncontrolled airspace.
 
FlyNE said:
Without discussing the safety and/or practical aspects of doing such, I have a theoretical question.

Technically, it is legal to fly in IMC while in class G airspace as long as you have an instrument rating. So let's say that I'm departing an airport in class G and hit IMC at 300 ft AGL. I level off at 350 ft. AGL and fly in circles while staying clear of all Class B, C, D and E airspance. Since I don't need to talk to ATC (and as such will not receive a transponder code)...and since I wouldn't squawk 1200 (since I'm not VFR). What should I set my transponder to?
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For the Canucks among us, we squawk 1000. See
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/RAC/1-0.htm#1-9-3

I don't see an American equivalent to that.

Dan
 
(I am getting some strong deja-vue as I type this, forgive if I posted it here before). You can, of course, take off in class G airspace, fly in solid IMC, navigate to another airport and land in class G without a clearance.

You would squawk 1200.

Up north (in Canada) its a practical necessity to fly IMC in class G and they use an enroute frequency and you sort of self-announce position reports. There are also mandatory aerodrome frequencies so you can announce an approach and negotiate out the sequencing if you hear someone else.

It makes you feel kind of like a pirate when you are solid in the clouds and they offer "frequency change approved."
 
twdeckard said:
You can, of course, take off in class G airspace, fly in solid IMC, navigate to another airport and land in class G without a clearance.
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Only under limited circumstances, particularly that you don't go over any airports with published IAP's down from controlled airspace overhead (see Murphy, linked above, for that discussion), and that you can do so while adhering to the minimum IFR altitudes in 91.177 (pretty much impossible anywhere east of the Rockies).
You would squawk 1200.
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1200 means you're operating VFR, so that would not be the appropriate squawk. While I can find no FAA guidance on what to squawk if you're operating IFR outside controlled airspace, 1200 isn't it, since it announces that you are operating VFR and thus complying with 91.155 (and therefore not in the clouds).
 
Ron Levy said:
1200 means you're operating VFR, so that would not be the appropriate squawk. While I can find no FAA guidance on what to squawk if you're operating IFR outside controlled airspace, 1200 isn't it, since it announces that you are operating VFR and thus complying with 91.155 (and therefore not in the clouds).
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Interesting -- is 1200 an anouncment that you are VMC? Or simply not assigned a squawk code by ATC?
 
dmccormack said:
Right -- which is NOT the same as "Squawking 1200 and VMC" -- even though the two should be synonymous.
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How do they differ? If you're operating in accordance with Visual Flight Rules you must be in Visual Meteorological Conditions.
 
roncachamp said:
How do they differ? If you're operating in accordance with Visual Flight Rules you must be in Visual Meteorological Conditions.
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The point of this thread -- you are flying IFR IMC in uncontrolled airspace -- in that case, you'd be squawking VFR even though you were IMC...

Unless I missed something...?
 
roncachamp said:
How do they differ? If you're operating in accordance with Visual Flight Rules you must be in Visual Meteorological Conditions.
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...at least, if you're operating legally -- I've come across folks squawking 1200 while not in VMC and not talking to ATC, but not in G-space.
 
dmccormack said:
The point of this thread -- you are flying IFR IMC in uncontrolled airspace -- in that case, you'd be squawking VFR even though you were IMC...
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...which is why 1200 is the wrong code -- it means you're operating under VFR, which requires being in VMC to be legal. I don't know what the right code is, but it isn't 1200.
 
Ron Levy said:
...which is why 1200 is the wrong code -- it means you're operating under VFR, which requires being in VMC to be legal. I don't know what the right code is, but it isn't 1200.
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Exactly -- and so the practical default code ("I haven't been given a squawk code...") is 1200.
 
dmccormack said:
The point of this thread -- you are flying IFR IMC in uncontrolled airspace -- in that case, you'd be squawking VFR even though you were IMC...

Unless I missed something...?
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1200 is for aircraft operating VFR and not in radio contact with an ATC radar facility. If you are "flying IFR IMC in uncontrolled airspace" you are not operating VFR.
 
Since the FAA gives no guidance on the matter perhaps the ICAO code of 2000 for an IFR aircraft entering controlled airspace from uncontrolled airspace would be acceptable?
 
Clark1961 said:
Since the FAA gives no guidance on the matter perhaps the ICAO code of 2000 for an IFR aircraft entering controlled airspace from uncontrolled airspace would be acceptable?
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That's a better guess than 1200. Only question is whether US controllers will recognize it (Steven?) and whether any US pilots will know it, since AFAIK it's not written in any pubs US pilots not flying internationally are expected to read.
 
Clark1961 said:
Since the FAA gives no guidance on the matter perhaps the ICAO code of 2000 for an IFR aircraft entering controlled airspace from uncontrolled airspace would be acceptable?
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JO 7110.65S Air Traffic Control

Chapter 5. Radar

Section 2. Beacon Systems

5-2-6. FUNCTION CODE ASSIGNMENTS ​


Unless otherwise specified by a directive or a letter of agreement, make nondiscrete code assignments from the following categories: ​

a. Assign codes to departing IFR aircraft as follows: ​

1. Code 2000 to an aircraft which will climb to FL 240 or above or to an aircraft which will climb to FL 180 or above where the base of Class A airspace and the base of the operating sector are at FL 180, and for inter-facility handoff the receiving sector is also stratified at FL 180. The en route code shall not be assigned until the aircraft is established in the high altitude sector. ​

2. Code 1100 to an aircraft which will remain below FL 240 or below FL 180 as above.​

3. For handoffs from terminal facilities when so specified in a letter of agreement as follows: ​

(a) Within NBCAP airspace- Code 0100 to Code 0400 inclusive or any other code authorized by the appropriate service area office. ​

(b) Outside NBCAP airspace- Code 1000 or one of the codes from 0100 to 0700 inclusive or any other code authorized by the appropriate service area office. ​

b. Assign codes to en route IFR aircraft as follows: ​

NOTE-
1. FL 180 may be used in lieu of FL 240 where the base of Class A airspace and the base of the operating sector are at FL 180, and for inter-facility handoff the receiving sector is also stratified at FL 180. ​

2. The provisions of subparas b2(b) and (c) may be modified by facility directive or letter of agreement when operational complexities or simplified sectorization indicate. Letters of agreement are mandatory when the operating sectors of two facilities are not stratified at identical levels. The general concept of utilizing Codes 2100 through 2500 within Class A airspace should be adhered to. ​

1. Aircraft operating below FL 240 or when control is transferred to a controller whose area includes the stratum involved. ​

(a) Code 1000 may be assigned to aircraft changing altitudes. ​

(b) Code 1100 to an aircraft operating at an assigned altitude below FL 240. Should an additional code be operationally desirable, Code 1300 shall be assigned. ​

2. Aircraft operating at or above FL 240 or when control is transferred to a controller whose area includes the stratum involved. ​

(a) Code 2300 may be assigned to aircraft changing altitudes. ​

(b) Code 2100 to an aircraft operating at an assigned altitude from FL 240 to FL 330 inclusive. Should an additional code be operationally desirable, Code 2200 shall be assigned. ​

(c) Code 2400 to an aircraft operating at an assigned altitude from FL 350 to FL 600 inclusive. Should an additional code be operationally desirable, Code 2500 shall be assigned. ​

3. Code 4000 when aircraft are operating on a flight plan specifying frequent or rapid changes in assigned altitude in more than one stratum or other conditions of flight not compatible with a stratified code assignment. ​

NOTE-
1. Categories of flight that can be assigned Code 4000 include certain flight test aircraft, MTR missions, aerial refueling operation requiring descent involving more than one stratum, ALTRVs where continuous monitoring of ATC communications facilities is not required and frequent altitude changes are approved, and other aircraft operating on flight plans requiring special handling by ATC. ​

2. Military aircraft operating VFR or IFR in restricted/warning areas or VFR on VR routes will adjust their transponders to reply on Code 4000 unless another code has been assigned by ATC or coordinated, if possible, with ATC. ​

c. Assign the following codes to arriving IFR aircraft, except military turbojet aircraft as specified in para 4-7-4, Radio Frequency and Radar Beacon Changes for Military Aircraft: ​

NOTE-
FL 180 may be used in lieu of FL 240 where the base of Class A airspace and the base of the operating sector are at FL 180, and for inter-facility handoff the receiving sector is also stratified at FL 180.​

1. Code 2300 may be assigned for descents while above FL 240. ​

2. Code 1500 may be assigned for descents into and while within the strata below FL 240, or with prior coordination the specific code utilized by the destination controller, or the code currently assigned when descent clearance is issued. ​

3. The applicable en route code for the holding altitude if holding is necessary before entering the terminal area and the appropriate code in subparas 1 or 2. ​

[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-2-8, IFR-VFR and VFR-IFR Flights.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-2-3, Nondiscrete Environment.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-2-4, Mixed Environment.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-2-9, VFR Code Assignments.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-3-3, Beacon Identification Methods.[/SIZE]​
​
 
roncachamp said:
1200 is for aircraft operating VFR and not in radio contact with an ATC radar facility. If you are "flying IFR IMC in uncontrolled airspace" you are not operating VFR.
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No kidding.

The question remains -- Flying with no contact with ATC, in uncontrolled airspace, there is no code other than 1200 that pilots can self-assign (other than 7500, 7600, 7700).

Simply turning off the transponder is not a good option, either.

So my point was and is -- since 1200 is the default code, what else can you, would you squawk in uncontrolled airspace while flying IMC?

Disclaimer -- this discussion is purely hypothetical for me, as if I need to take off IMC I get a squawk code via Clearance Delivery -- from any airport I've departed so far.
 
dmccormack said:
The question remains -- Flying with no contact with ATC, in uncontrolled airspace, there is no code other than 1200 that pilots can self-assign (other than 7500, 7600, 7700).
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And there is no code including 1200 that pilots can legall self-assign for IFR operations.
So my point was and is -- since 1200 is the default code, what else can you, would you squawk in uncontrolled airspace while flying IMC?
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Last time, Dan -- 1200 is not the "default" code. It is the code you squawk when operating VFR without a code assigned by ATC. And Steven has put paid to the "2000" idea.

It seems there is simply no appropriate and legal code to squawk in this situation. Maybe the FAA did that deliberately.
 
Ron Levy said:
And there is no code including 1200 that pilots can legall self-assign for IFR operations.
Last time, Dan -- 1200 is not the "default" code. It is the code you squawk when operating VFR without a code assigned by ATC. And Steven has put paid to the "2000" idea.

It seems there is simply no appropriate and legal code to squawk in this situation. Maybe the FAA did that deliberately.
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Where does legality enter into it? Is there some reg that specifies transponder codes?
 
Ron Levy said:
While it is technically legal to fly in IMC in Class G without a flight plan or a clearance, you can still get fried for doing it. See Administrator v. Murphy. Also, you would not be legal to "fly in circles" in IMC at 350 AGL (91.177(a)(2)(ii)).

As for what to squawk when operating in IMC in Class G without a flight plan or a clearance, I don't think there is any regulatory or advisory guidance on the subject.
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I don't see how 91.177 is applicable since it says flying under IFR, not IMC.
 
jmaynard said:
Since there apparently is no right thing, though, is 1200 the least wrong thing?
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Good question, although personally, I can't see getting ourselves wrapped around the axle over a situation that seldom comes up, especially considering the lack of radar coverage in areas where this would be an issue.
 
EdFred said:
I don't see how 91.177 is applicable since it says flying under IFR, not IMC.
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IFR = instrument flight rules. I don't recall seeing anything in those rules that precludes their being applicable in uncontrolled airspace. The requirement to have a clearance and flight plan in 91.173 has an exception for uncontrolled airspace, but it doesn't say that instrument flight rules in general don't apply there. In particular, I don't see any exception for uncontrolled airspace stated in 91.177.
 
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Ron Levy said:
And there is no code including 1200 that pilots can legall self-assign for IFR operations.
Last time, Dan -- 1200 is not the "default" code. It is the code you squawk when operating VFR without a code assigned by ATC. And Steven has put paid to the "2000" idea.

It seems there is simply no appropriate and legal code to squawk in this situation. Maybe the FAA did that deliberately.
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Read my post -- I said "practical default code" -- in other words, without guidance of an actual default, 1200 has become the default.

2000 would be fine if there was a reference to it anywhere. My time is limited today, but I'm guessing it's nowhere in the Controller's manuals, either
 
dmccormack said:
2000 would be fine if there was a reference to it anywhere. My time is limited today, but I'm guessing it's nowhere in the Controller's manuals, either
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It is in the controller's manual, see 5-2-6.a.1. None of the codes in paragraph 5-2-6 are self-assigned by pilots, they're assigned to pilots by controllers, and all of them are for assignment in controlled airspace because that's where ATC has authority for these sorts of things.
 
roncachamp said:
It is in the controller's manual, see 5-2-6.a.1. None of the codes in paragraph 5-2-6 are self-assigned by pilots, they're assigned to pilots by controllers, and all of them are for assignment in controlled airspace because that's where ATC has authority for these sorts of things.
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OK.. so that still doesn't solve the dilemna -- what does a pilot squawk when flying IMC in uncontroleld airspace?

1200 is VFR squawk -- got it, had it, no issue here.

Any other squawk is either emergency or assigned, but why would there be an assigned code flying in uncontrolled airspace?

Interesting dilemna, but my guess is that any pilot who has done this has used the alternate, stealth squawk code -- Transponder to OFF.

Scary thought....
 
dmccormack said:
OK.. so that still doesn't solve the dilemna -- what does a pilot squawk when flying IMC in uncontroleld airspace?

1200 is VFR squawk -- got it, had it, no issue here.

Any other squawk is either emergency or assigned, but why would there be an assigned code flying in uncontrolled airspace?

Interesting dilemna, but my guess is that any pilot who has done this has used the alternate, stealth squawk code -- Transponder to OFF.

Scary thought....
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That is EXACTLY the original question and only answer that I could come up with. It's not the safe answer, but it is the ONLY legal answer.

If you assume that such a flight can be made legally (leave safety aside) and you assume that such a flight can be made safely (within the comfort zone of the pilot) how can you legally set your transponder to anything other than off?
 
I'm enjoying this thread. I know its a hypothetical that will most likely never happen to any of us, but still...its interesting.

It reminds me of the thread where we discussed what to do when a Bravo Tower closes for some reason.
 
FlyNE said:
That is EXACTLY the original question and only answer that I could come up with. It's not the safe answer, but it is the ONLY legal answer.

If you assume that such a flight can be made legally (leave safety aside) and you assume that such a flight can be made safely (within the comfort zone of the pilot) how can you legally set your transponder to anything other than off?
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Around here (Pittsburgh, Southwest PA, West Virginia), the transponder to off code is the most used (Don't ask me how I know).

PIT APP picks you up as a primary at about 2000 MSL. Terrain here is 1200-1300 MSL west of the ridge. Ridge goes up to 2400'.

CKB APP picks you up higher -- usually 2400'
 
FlyNE said:
If you assume that such a flight can be made legally (leave safety aside) and you assume that such a flight can be made safely (within the comfort zone of the pilot) how can you legally set your transponder to anything other than off?
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There is no legal requirement I can find to prevent you from choosing any transponder code you like, other than the requirement to obey ATC instructions, and if they give you an instruction on what to squawk, the dilemma is solved.

Under 14 CFR 91.3, my command decision in these circumstances would be to turn the transponder on so that people's TCAD units will see me, and set it to 1200 because that code would be the least likely to cause problems once I got into an area of radar coverage.

So in summary, I think the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is 1200. (And that's octal, of course!) :)
 
Wow. Save this thread. Ronca and Ron agreeing with each other. Which way is up? :confused:

--Carlos V.
 
dmccormack said:
OK.. so that still doesn't solve the dilemna -- what does a pilot squawk when flying IMC in uncontroleld airspace?
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If you're operating IFR through uncontrolled airspace with an ATC clearance to enter/re-enter controlled airspace, you squawk as assigned by ATC. Outside of that, I think what the FAA is telling you is that they really don't want you operating out there, and if you do it, they don't want to know about it. But if you choose to do so anyway, don't squawk something which could make it seem like you're operating VFR in IMC, and 1200 is an announcement that you're operating VFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
<SNIP>But if you choose to do so anyway, don't squawk something which could make it seem like you're operating VFR in IMC, and 1200 is an announcement that you're operating VFR.
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Aside from potentially confusing someone as to the visibility, what's the huhu about squawking 1200 under IFR in Class G?

If I had an active TCAS, I'd rather know someone was out there even if it is a bogus code assuming I am flying under the same conditions.

Anything other that 1200 would accomplish the same thing but I don't understand how 1200 reduces safety. Anyone flying in the same area will know quickly it isn't VFR...

If a transponder code is squawked but no one is around to receive it, does it matter?:smile:
 
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