Transponder recommendations

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
Well the Cessna/ARC transponder is dead. No secondary target, no Mode C.

I'm guessing it's unwise to repair it but will leave that opinion to the avionics shop.

Will call them tomorrow probably -- sometimes they have used stuff in stock.

Meanwhile... If you had to buy a new transponder today -- what's your choice?

Panel is King stuff.
 
Defiantly one of the GTX transponders. Might as well throw in an Aspen and a GTN-750 while you're at it.
 
GTX 330, get a 430 and you can have Heather yell at you while you fly.
 
For 2020, you'll need a new transponder anyway. One with ADS-B Out.
 
I love my GTX-330 w/traffic, but if you don't already have a Garmin box (430), the 327 would work just fine.
 
Don't own a plane, but have many hours renting aircraft with the GTX series. I really like the ease of use of both the interface and features.

Current C172's I rent have the Bendix/King ones for the NavII package. They are also okay, but still have a preference for the Garmin.
 
Don't own a plane, but have many hours renting aircraft with the GTX series. I really like the ease of use of both the interface and features.

Current C172's I rent have the Bendix/King ones for the NavII package. They are also okay, but still have a preference for the Garmin.

The king units suffer from the same screen failures as the rest of their avionics.

GTX330 /thread
 
GTX 327.

Wait for the 330ES. Competition is a good thing and time value of money counts (even a low discount rates).
 
The Garmin 330ES will do the extended squatter ADSB output

I'm not questioning that a mode-s transponder can be used for ADS-B out, I'm questioning that any transponder change is required. That is, it is my understanding that small GA can continue to use the old mode 3 a/c transponder.
 
So those who are saying "wait"... wouldn't it make more sense to drop a used Mode C in there to wait with?
 
Wait for what? A transponder is probably the least expensive piece of avionics that you can put in a stack. You can probably buy an old King KT-76a for cheap, but you still have to have the rack and connections, and you're still stuck with an old fashioned transmitter that will wear out sooner and takes more energy.

For a few more dollars you can get a used GTX327, or if you have the capability of displaying traffic, then a 330.

If you want to make an investment, get a 330 ES. If the rest of your avionics is older King and you have no need for GPS, traffic, Nexrad, and MFD's, the used 327 is still a better buy than a King KT76 with the manual switches.
 
Wait for what? A transponder is probably the least expensive piece of avionics that you can put in a stack.

"Wait" came from Clark's comment that the 330ES isn't available yet. We're talking a week and a half to put this in.

You can probably buy an old King KT-76a for cheap, but you still have to have the rack and connections, and you're still stuck with an old fashioned transmitter that will wear out sooner and takes more energy.

The current Cessna/ARC in the aircraft is original. No signs in the logs that it has ever been serviced. 36 years. How reliable does "reliable" need to be? "Wear out sooner?" Perhaps.

As far as "more energy" goes... Haven't really seen the ancient one causing any load issues in our stack. Lowering energy utilization doesn't really matter much. We've heard stories of older aircraft with severe limitations on the power draw but we're in good shape there.

For a few more dollars you can get a used GTX327, or if you have the capability of displaying traffic, then a 330.

Nothing to display traffic on yet. Moot point right now. Worth noting for future upgrades.

If you want to make an investment, get a 330 ES. If the rest of your avionics is older King and you have no need for GPS, traffic, Nexrad, and MFD's, the used 327 is still a better buy than a King KT76 with the manual switches.

Investments in tech are usually a loser's game. The tech will change before the other boxes go in. And usually get cheaper. This assumes competition which there isn't much of in avionics right now, against Garmin...

So... Basically it looks like the options are:

Low-end: Swap the Cessna/ARC for a serviceable one and have no changes to rack, blind encoder, antenna, anything. ~$800

Medium: Swap out the tray and possibly the encoder (are their outputs standardized?), and put in something else. If buttons/dials are a worry, go KT-76C to match the rest of the stack and cross fingers that the display doesn't act up. The Garmin GTX-327 fits nicely here also. ~$1600 plus tray.

Medium-high: Mode-S without any traffic or other data. Makes zero sense. Not even going to bother looking up which transponders will do this. No requirement to do it at our altitudes and buys us nothing. Makes airliner TCAS happier, I suppose. Helps out Big Brother with serialized transmissions if anyone cares.

High: Garmin GTX-330. ~$3300. Does Mode-S and TIS which will probably be phased out for ADS-B In/Out. No display currently on board for it.

Super-high: Garmin 330 ES. ~$5500. Supposedly future-proof. Cream o' the crop and all that jazz.

None of the above include labor, or course. Leaving the encoder alone means no static system IFR recent req'd.

That's a pretty darn big price swing to maintain the only requirement for just under 9 more years as basic Mode C.

Other thoughts:

- TIS has coverage here only around DEN and COS (granted those are the places you want it). Outside of the coverage rings around those, TIS is a barren wasteland here. Mission-wise, the airplane has been East of the Mississippi less than five times in six years. We're all go southwest (AZ, NM, UT, NV etc.) or way north by northeast (Dakotas).

- Below 18,000' UAS on 900 MHz is going to be required to utilize ADS-B properly anyway and Rocky Mtn Region hasn't even completed ground station roll-out. Zero coverage here right now. No published estimate on availability.

It's pretty tempting in light of the lack of coverage and uselessness of the data without a compatible display to just go low-end and wait to see what the market offers prior to 2020. If anything.

Perhaps someone will offer a dual mode UAS 900 MHz ADS-B In/Out and transponder combo in a single package, which makes the most sense eventually -- now that the ADS-B designers have rammed their heads up against the blatantly obvious bandwidth wall.

Did I miss something?
 
Sounds like you already had made up your mind and are just looking for confirmation of the same. If your mission requirements are largely met with an older rack and your flying is generally local and VFR, there is obviously no need for anything recent or high end, or even a panel mounted gps. You might as well go the budget route.
 
[snip]
- Below 18,000' UAS on 900 MHz is going to be required to utilize ADS-B properly anyway and Rocky Mtn Region hasn't even completed ground station roll-out. Zero coverage here right now. No published estimate on availability.

[snip]

Did I miss something?

Now it's my turn to ask if I missed something...Why do you say that UAT is needed below 18000'? Is there some aspect of the ADS-B architecture that requires UAT instead of Mode-S below 18000'?
 
Sounds like you're pretty well decided.

Given that my flying circumstances are different than yours (I'm in the ADIZ where failure really is not an option...), I'd go with solid state over tube, which would rule out the old stuff. But YMMV.
 
well if I had an unlimited budget, for the flying I do, I would buy a Trig TT20 or 21.
 
Sounds like you already had made up your mind and are just looking for confirmation of the same. If your mission requirements are largely met with an older rack and your flying is generally local and VFR, there is obviously no need for anything recent or high end, or even a panel mounted gps. You might as well go the budget route.

No, mind not made up... just searching for the utility of Mode-S at this point and not seeing any. Was seeing if I missed something.

Don't know what the Instrument Rating may bring as part of any new "mission" for the airplane but without a compatible display on board yet, that seems a better place to spend upgrade funds (Garmin or Aspen) down the road. $4000 price difference buys a large chunk of either one.

As far as Bob's question goes, I ran across some docs showing that the reason for UAS was that if you mandated ADS-B tomorrow the frequency would be overloaded with squitter traffic. The need for an additional data channel was not well thought out or well-designed.

Having seen this kind of data network growing pain before, I'd rather not be caught in the breech with gear of questionable future value right now. IMHO, anyway. Not really into being a Beta tester on my dime. It's usually expensive. Better to wait for the main up-take curve.

One shop today said their avionics person is on vacation this week. The other hasn't called back yet.
 
Flying in a club with 10 different aircraft, with different equipment, ranging from 1970's 152's, Warrior II's to 172SP's, I can't say that I ever thought "man, I wish this thing had a newer transponder". If it works, that's all I care about. The only interaction I have with the thing is to turn it on, put in 4 numbers and occasionally I might press the ident button.
 
No, mind not made up... just searching for the utility of Mode-S at this point and not seeing any. Was seeing if I missed something.

Unless you're using a display for TIS or are getting the ES box for ADSB, you're unlikely to see much value for Mode S.

OTOH, I've found that some ATC facilities seem to be able to see Mode S, making for faster identification after assigning your beacon code. Again, not a big deal in most cases
 
We just put in a GTX327. I've used both the GTX327 and 330, they're flawless transponders.

We chose the 327 over the 330 because the 330 still needs an upgrade to be ADS-B compliant, and 2020 is a ways away. There is a significant cost difference, and in 8 years, who knows what we're going to want to go with for avionics.

Our 327 was about $2,200 installed for a brand new unit. Go cheap.
 
Chat with a local shop today, they have a direct replacement for Ye Olde Cessna/ARC refurbished and sitting there on the shelf.

They'll test the antenna and if it's not the antenna, swap the transponder while I wait. They'll take the old one in trade for parts. Stuff the new one in the tray. Logbook entry and ... Outta there.

If antenna needed, they can do that too.

Kinda hard to pass that up. Let the world sort out the ADS-B goofiness in the meantime.

Downside is lack of any significant warranty, probably 30 days. If it croaks, we get to do it all over again. Or buy a Garmin. ;)
 
Downside is lack of any significant warranty, probably 30 days. If it croaks, we get to do it all over again. Or buy a Garmin. ;)

I'd go straight to the Garmin for that reason.
 
I hear ya.

Well... With the Garmin it's still downtime to get it fixed if it were to fail. Not much difference in anything except price. Quality to some extent, but this one lasted 35 years...

Co-owners also like the idea of just swapping it for now. Upgrade later if needed to match other future capabilities in the overall panel.

Mode-C waiver phone call made to DEN, asked for tail number and said to call 'em 15 minutes prior to departure to coordinate tomorrow.

That was relatively painless...
 
Follow up. Very interesting.

Transponder tested fine. Huh? Yup.

Coax cable to the rear antenna failed. Shorted. Here's why...

If you've seen me mention that we have a heater leak... The coax for the tail mounted transponder antenna fin runs... right above the passenger side heat vent for the back seats.

Over time, the coax center conductor under heat "migrates" toward the shield at bends in the cable. Eventually it shorts out. Happens to lots of Cessnas according to the shop.

Taping up the heat vents in LNK made this worse and/or finished the job.

So... Here's the goofy part.

Went to turn on all the avionics for the flight up and now the DME is dead. Hahaha. When it rains, it pours.

Avionics shop pulled both for bench tests. You already have the transponder's story. The DME wouldn't power up on the bench.

Shop swapped antenna cables... Transponder temporarily on the forward (center of the belly) DME antenna.

Kept DME to ascertain whether or not it's a simple failure worth fixing on the bench or if it's toast. Will know more probably tomorrow.

If DME is worth fixing, they'll need the airplane for half a day to route new coax to the tail. And we need to find a permanent fix for our heater issue. ;)

Transponder worked great on the DME antenna coming home. Wind gusting to 30 again. Down the runway at both BJC and APA.

How's that for interesting side-effects and everything always being related?! ;)

The geek in me said, "It's always Layer 1. Always." LOL! (OSI networking model.)
 
The shop that did our transponder install said they always change the coax for the transponder when doing a new transponder install. In our case, the cable was the original 45-year-old cable.
 
Have you considered fixing your heater?
 
Mine just went flakey too. Last trip ATC told me it was bounching between 6200 and 7200 when I was rock solid at 6500. Same thing today. Pulled it out, hit contacts on unit and tray with contact cleaner, no luck. Pulled it out for the car ride to the shop. If it's fixable, great. If the shop needs the airplane to check wiring too, then that's next week's project. Only after that will I start looking for a used transonder. I'm sure the shop will have a slide in replacement.

Rats.
 
Have you considered fixing your heater?

Uhh. Oh yeah, that. ;) (Kidding.)

Yes. Of course. Problem is in the airbox on the firewall. Door doesn't fully close. When the door is closed the heat goes overboard under the cowl back near the right side cowl flap.

From our research, replacing it is both expensive -- the fiberglass box and heat door mechanism is over $1000, since it's a specialty part -- and it requires drilling out all the rivets that hold the dang fiberglass box to the firewall.

Up until this event it was a "we just kinda live with it and open all the vents and mix outside air with it" kinda thing. Oh and drink lots of water. It wasn't unbearable. Plus much of the year around here we're happy for heat. ;)

Lesson learned. Should'a fixed it.

Lots of posts on the CPA forums of just unhooking the heat tube that feeds it, safety wiring it out of the way so the heat goes overboard in the summer. Haven't had the cowl off to look at how feasible that is on ours. (Some use clamps to attach, some the hose is riveted to the airbox.)

The big mistake was trapping all the heat in the vent by taping it over.
 
Mine just went flakey too. Last trip ATC told me it was bounching between 6200 and 7200 when I was rock solid at 6500. Same thing today. Pulled it out, hit contacts on unit and tray with contact cleaner, no luck. Pulled it out for the car ride to the shop. If it's fixable, great. If the shop needs the airplane to check wiring too, then that's next week's project. Only after that will I start looking for a used transonder. I'm sure the shop will have a slide in replacement.

Rats.

I assume you have a blind encoder hooked to it. That sounds more like a static leak to the encoder.

We had all our static lines replaced last year or the year before (I forget) when a leak was found. Old tubing gets brittle.
 
I assume you have a blind encoder hooked to it. That sounds more like a static leak to the encoder.

We had all our static lines replaced last year or the year before (I forget) when a leak was found. Old tubing gets brittle.

Excellent suggestion! Local shop will take a look on Monday, so no flying this weekend for me. I may go out during the weekend and see if something's come loose or the tubing is bad.

rats.
 
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