Transiting airspace of military airports

jpower

jpower

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James
Hi all,
I'm kicking around the idea of a day trip down to the Norfolk area for a little high-altitude (4500 ish--can't go through the ORF Class C because I'm still a SP w/o the endorsement) sightseeing followed by lunch at Charly's at JGG. Right on the way from Norfolk to JGG is Felker AAF. I'd like to start my descent right after the ORF Class C, but that would put me in Felker's Class D. There's nothing on the chart or on Airnav that would suggest that I can't transit the airspace, but is there something I'm missing?

This brings up the question of other interesting airports that could be transited. For example, could you transit the Class D airspace of the Shuttle Landing Facility down in FL? Or any other military (/special use, like the Shuttle facility) Class D? I assume so...but that's because I don't see anything that says I couldn't.

Thanks!
 
Funny you should post this.....I'm moving back to the Norfolk area in a month and one of the things I want to do when I get there is overfly the James River fleet and take some photos.....only issue is that the reserve fleet is tied up right within Felker's D. All military air fields have civilian band frequencies....the only question is whether they monitor them, which is probably a hit or miss thing depending on the facility.

Anyway, my plan was to contact Felker Tower on 126.3 and ask to transition their airspace. Worst they can do is no.



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jpower said:
Hi all,
I'm kicking around the idea of a day trip down to the Norfolk area for a little high-altitude (4500 ish--can't go through the ORF Class C because I'm still a SP w/o the endorsement) sightseeing followed by lunch at Charly's at JGG. Right on the way from Norfolk to JGG is Felker AAF. I'd like to start my descent right after the ORF Class C, but that would put me in Felker's Class D. There's nothing on the chart or on Airnav that would suggest that I can't transit the airspace, but is there something I'm missing?

This brings up the question of other interesting airports that could be transited. For example, could you transit the Class D airspace of the Shuttle Landing Facility down in FL? Or any other military (/special use, like the Shuttle facility) Class D? I assume so...but that's because I don't see anything that says I couldn't.

Thanks!
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By SP, do you mean Sport Pilot or Student Pilot? Student Plot only needs an endorsement for Class B. Sport Pilot requires an endorsement for class B, C, and D airspaces.
 
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They should be monitoring VHF. We have civil traffic transiting below our departures/arrivals @ Oceana, and I know at Miramar, there were several established VFR transitions overhead the field for civilian traffic that were deconflicted via altitude with break and pattern traffic. I wouldn't think it would be too much of a problem, especially if you were above their airspace, or were low and flying around the periphery.
 
35 AoA said:
They should be monitoring VHF.
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'Should' being the key term.

I know North Island is usually pretty good about letting GA folks through. I have no idea how well the Army towers function, but if they are anything like the rest of the Army, they probably aren't the most on the ball.




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Fearless Tower said:
'Should' being the key term.

I know North Island is usually pretty good about letting GA folks through. I have no idea how well the Army towers function, but if they are anything like the rest of the Army, they probably aren't the most on the ball.
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What experience have you had that makes you think military ATC facilities don't monitor their published VHF frequencies?
 
kkoran said:
What experience have you had that makes you think military ATC facilities don't monitor their published VHF frequencies?
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I'm active duty Navy. I know what goes on behind closed doors....you'd be suprised at how often the volume knobs get turned down.
 
I transit military airspace all the time in my area, on flight following. Travis, Beale and a number of others. I hear ATC dealing with the military traffic, just like everyone else. Nothing says you can't get flight following, even if you are SP, whatever that is.
 
> All military air fields have civilian band frequencies....the only question is whether they
> monitor them, which is probably a hit or miss thing depending on the facility.

I have never had a military staffed tower/approach fail to respond.

Transit their airspace? Probably, depending upon ops.

Overfly the field? Probably not, in my experience.
 
There are civilian frqs for all military towers, and, they are supposed to be monitoring them all them time. Supposed to be. Out west we don't have many problems with bases. We call them up, ask for transit, and unless there's lots of military traffic, it's not a problem. In 15 years of flying near Buckley AFB, I've been denied only once and that was during a major exercise.

Of course there are times I know the base is not a good place to fly over, so I fly around and don't get in their way.

The Buckley tower folks are great to work with, don't know about other bases. They even kept me out of Class B one day by asking me to "reset the transponder..."

Go find a Denver map and see why. BAFB sits under Denver's Class B and in between KAPA and KFTG class D.

Buckley has to pay attention to civ freqs - the local traffic helicopter has to fly thru all the time during rush hour.

Just remember to listen to AITS at the base before calling.
 
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murphey said:
Go find a Denver map and see why. BAFB sits under Denver's Class B and in between KAPA and KFTG class D.

Buckley has to pay attention to civ freqs - the local traffic heli opter has to fly thru all the time during rush hour.
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I was based at KFTG when it went from non-towered to towered/Class D. That is a narrow bit of airspace there, and some pilots I knew got dinged for busting the KDEN Class B. I used to pick up pax a lot at KAPA so know that slot well.

Gotta watch for the F-16's heading east out of Buckley. I've never had da problem talking to military ATC either. Always get them when I call them up and often get worked by military approach.
 
jpower said:
This brings up the question of other interesting airports that could be transited. For example, could you transit the Class D airspace of the Shuttle Landing Facility down in FL? Or any other military (/special use, like the Shuttle facility) Class D? I assume so...but that's because I don't see anything that says I couldn't.
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The requirements for entry of Class D airspace do not vary with the operator of the control tower.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Funny you should post this.....I'm moving back to the Norfolk area in a month and one of the things I want to do when I get there is overfly the James River fleet and take some photos.....only issue is that the reserve fleet is tied up right within Felker's D. All military air fields have civilian band frequencies....the only question is whether they monitor them, which is probably a hit or miss thing depending on the facility.
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All ATC facilities, even those operated by the military, are required to monitor assigned radio frequencies continuously.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm active duty Navy. I know what goes on behind closed doors....you'd be suprised at how often the volume knobs get turned down.
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Why would they turn down the volume on an assigned frequency? It's not like UNICOM, where most of the calls are about operations at some other airport.
 
Sorry about the SP confusion. I'm a sport pilot with a Class D endorsement but without a Class C (or B) endorsement. There aren't any Bs or Cs on the Eastern Shore, which is where I've been burning my holes in the sky, so it hasn't been an issue.

As to why I don't want to overfly Felker at 2501 feet, I would have to make like a grand piano and drop to get down to the pattern at JGG. I'd need a 1200+ ft/min descent rate. I'll most likely be on flight following, so it shouldn't be an issue, but I figured I'd check to see if anyone here had any experience.

And actually, I just checked the hours of operation, and it's only Mon-Fri. So on a weekend, I would think I'd be fine.
 
roncachamp said:
All ATC facilities, even those operated by the military, are required to monitor assigned radio frequencies continuously.
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That's not quite true. I guarantee that nobody's monitoring KSBY's tower freq when the tower's closed (except maybe a pilot in the pattern using it as a CTAF), and nobody's breaking any rules. Ditto Patuxent Approach when they're closed -- Washington Center only monitors their own freq's then, not Pax's.

As for Felker, if you're receiving flight following from Norfolk Approach (125.7), you're already covered whether the tower is open or not. If not, call Felker Tower on 126.3, but don't expect anyone to answer unless the tower is open (1200-0400Z++ MON-FRI EXC FEDERAL HOL), in which case the airspace reverts to Class G except for one hour before the tower opens when it's Class E.
 
roncachamp said:
Why would they turn down the volume on an assigned frequency? It's not like UNICOM, where most of the calls are about operations at some other airport.
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It usually happens because they are busy doing other ops on the primary UHF freqs and there could be static or interference on the VHF, so someone reaches over and turns the VHF down, time passes and it is forgotten.....until a couple watches later when it is discovered and corrected. My experience is all on ships, but I see no reason that a shore based facility would be immune.
 
roncachamp said:
All ATC facilities, even those operated by the military, are required to monitor assigned radio frequencies continuously.
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The only reaon you and I appear to disagree Steven, is that you speak to what is supposed to happen and I tend to relate what I have seen. You are correct.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not quite true. I guarantee that nobody's monitoring KSBY's tower freq when the tower's closed (except maybe a pilot in the pattern using it as a CTAF), and nobody's breaking any rules. Ditto Patuxent Approach when they're closed -- Washington Center only monitors their own freq's then, not Pax's.
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You have an amazing grasp of the obvious.
 
I wouldn't disagree with Fearless Tower......many folks in mil towers are students (obviously under supervision from the twr chief) and they make mistakes, a bit more frequently than most are used to flying in and around civilian fields. I'm sure there is a certain "art" to it, and not all of them have it early on. Ran out of fingers to count the times that I had a close call @ towered mil fields due to poor calls from tower. Not a knock on them, as they don't know what they don't know, but it would not surprise me if they were saturated enough at times to be unresponsive to VHF non-participating traffic. I know it is a real gong show every time we have FCLP's going on with other non-FCLP traffic departing/recovering. And that is just military/UHF traffic. Any time there is any emergency whatsoever, KNTU basically shuts down for all intents and purposes.....everyone goes to hold regardless of fuel state, ground just tells you to stand by if you are on deck, Giant Killer starts restricting clearances and holding people out in the W-72.....all kinds of needless crazy stuff, often for one jet flying a single engine straight in, or even a precautionary approach for something relatively insignificant. But that's a whole other can of worms, point being that they do get very busy with scenarios that would probably be standard day-to-day stuff at a class B/C/D civilian airport. That all being said, I think they are generally pretty helpful when the situation permits.
 
35 AoA said:
I wouldn't disagree with Fearless Tower......many folks in mil towers are students (obviously under supervision from the twr chief) and they make mistakes, a bit more frequently than most are used to flying in and around civilian fields. I'm sure there is a certain "art" to it, and not all of them have it early on. Ran out of fingers to count the times that I had a close call @ towered mil fields due to poor calls from tower. Not a knock on them, as they don't know what they don't know, but it would not surprise me if they were saturated enough at times to be unresponsive to VHF non-participating traffic. I know it is a real gong show every time we have FCLP's going on with other non-FCLP traffic departing/recovering. And that is just military/UHF traffic. Any time there is any emergency whatsoever, KNTU basically shuts down for all intents and purposes.....everyone goes to hold regardless of fuel state, ground just tells you to stand by if you are on deck, Giant Killer starts restricting clearances and holding people out in the W-72.....all kinds of needless crazy stuff, often for one jet flying a single engine straight in, or even a precautionary approach for something relatively insignificant. But that's a whole other can of worms, point being that they do get very busy with scenarios that would probably be standard day-to-day stuff at a class B/C/D civilian airport. That all being said, I think they are generally pretty helpful when the situation permits.
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With regard to Class D airspace, what is "VHF non-participating traffic"?
 
roncachamp said:
With regard to Class D airspace, what is "VHF non-participating traffic"?
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I'm just referring to non-military traffic that doesn't normally operate within the airspace. Not saying civilian folks aren't welcome, just that they don't make up the majority of traffic that mil towers deal with (at least at non-dual use fields), and are given special handling through the airspace on a time/space available basis (at least from what I can tell). Large Force Exercise recovering? Probably not going to get in........calm day with crickets on the radio and in the pattern? Shouldn't be a problem at all. In less wordy terms, they aren't landing at the field, so towers priority is going to be handling the mil traffic that is. Also, some fields are going to of course be more permissive than others.
 
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35 AoA said:
I wouldn't disagree with Fearless Tower......many folks in mil towers are students (obviously under supervision from the twr chief) and they make mistakes, a bit more frequently than most are used to flying in and around civilian fields. I'm sure there is a certain "art" to it, and not all of them have it early on. Ran out of fingers to count the times that I had a close call @ towered mil fields due to poor calls from tower. Not a knock on them, as they don't know what they don't know, but it would not surprise me if they were saturated enough at times to be unresponsive to VHF non-participating traffic. I know it is a real gong show every time we have FCLP's going on with other non-FCLP traffic departing/recovering. And that is just military/UHF traffic. Any time there is any emergency whatsoever, KNTU basically shuts down for all intents and purposes.....everyone goes to hold regardless of fuel state, ground just tells you to stand by if you are on deck, Giant Killer starts restricting clearances and holding people out in the W-72.....all kinds of needless crazy stuff, often for one jet flying a single engine straight in, or even a precautionary approach for something relatively insignificant. But that's a whole other can of worms, point being that they do get very busy with scenarios that would probably be standard day-to-day stuff at a class B/C/D civilian airport. That all being said, I think they are generally pretty helpful when the situation permits.
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translation please.
 
35 AoA said:
I'm just referring to non-military traffic that doesn't normally operate within the airspace. Not saying civilian folks aren't welcome, just that they don't make up the majority of traffic that mil towers deal with (at least at non-dual use fields), and are given special handling through the airspace on a time/space available basis (at least from what I can tell). Large Force Exercise recovering? Probably not going to get in........calm day with crickets on the radio and in the pattern? Shouldn't be a problem at all. In less wordy terms, they aren't landing at the field, so towers priority is going to be handling the mil traffic that is. Also, some fields are going to of course be more permissive than others.
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True, but just as true at non-military fields.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The only reaon you and I appear to disagree Steven, is that you speak to what is supposed to happen and I tend to relate what I have seen. You are correct.
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Did you happen to see any reason why military air fields would choose not to monitor assigned VHF frequencies?
 
Interesting thread so far.

I'm former Navy, stationed down in Pensacola for a while. NAS down there allows civs on base just about every day of the week to go to the aviation museum, which is attached to their airfield. Has anyone ever flown-in to that museum? Are they open to this if you call and schedule in advance with the tower?
 
Apache123 said:
Interesting thread so far.

I'm former Navy, stationed down in Pensacola for a while. NAS down there allows civs on base just about every day of the week to go to the aviation museum, which is attached to their airfield. Has anyone ever flown-in to that museum? Are they open to this if you call and schedule in advance with the tower?
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Flying in to a military field is a whole 'nother can of worms. Usually it is a royal pain in the arse and not worth the effort (and paperwork). You would start by calling ahead (usually starting with base ops) and then be prepared to jump through hoops (submit paperwork, proof of insurance, waivers....etc, all in advance).

I looked into doing that in order to fly in to March ARB so that I could take my tests for the Air Force JPME course. Alot quicker than driving and I could literally park the plane on the transient ramp and walk across the street to the exam center. But the red tape was ridiculous, even for a guy on active duty with a military related reason to be there.
 
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FT, the tower on a ship is vastly different than the tower on a land based airport. A ship has zero civilian traffic they are responsible for and monitoring VHF is a nicety. A land based tower has control of airspace (usually, with few exceptions) that civilian traffic can and does use. The fields where this is true (and those are the fields every civilian pilot here has experience with as none of them are flying to KXTA) the towers are RESPONSIBLE for that VHF freq.

That means the likelyhood of them turning down the volume on the required freq is the same as any towered field..ie, it ain't gonna happen.

I'm not crapping on your post. I'm just pointing out that you are comparing apples to oranges. I believe the VHF goes unmonitered often on ships, but the pilots here (myself included) don't talk to them. We talk to military land based approach controls and I and others have NEVER had a problem with them don't being there on the freq they own and are required to be on.
 
roncachamp said:
You have an amazing grasp of the obvious.
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Glad you think so. It clearly wasn't obvious to you when you wrote "All ATC facilities, even those operated by there military, are required to monitor assigned radio frequencies continuously," because they aren't so required and they don't when they're closed. Unless, of course, your definition of "continuously" means "all the time except when they're closed," which I think would be a unique definition of the term.
 
Ron Levy said:
Glad you think so. It clearly wasn't obvious to you when you wrote "All ATC facilities, even those operated by there military, are required to monitor assigned radio frequencies continuously," because they aren't so required and they don't when they're closed. Unless, of course, your definition of "continuously" means "all the time except when they're closed," which I think would be a unique definition of the term.
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I understood 'continuuously' to mean when they are open.
 
Ron Levy said:
Glad you think so. It clearly wasn't obvious to you when you wrote "All ATC facilities, even those operated by there military, are required to monitor assigned radio frequencies continuously," because they aren't so required and they don't when they're closed. Unless, of course, your definition of "continuously" means "all the time except when they're closed," which I think would be a unique definition of the term.
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Clearly, I was wrong about your grasp of the obvious. "Continuously" as it is used here means at all times the facility is operational.
 
Captain said:
FT, the tower on a ship is vastly different than the tower on a land based airport. A ship has zero civilian traffic they are responsible for and monitoring VHF is a nicety. A land based tower has control of airspace (usually, with few exceptions) that civilian traffic can and does use. The fields where this is true (and those are the fields every civilian pilot here has experience with as none of them are flying to KXTA) the towers are RESPONSIBLE for that VHF freq.

That means the likelyhood of them turning down the volume on the required freq is the same as any towered field..ie, it ain't gonna happen.
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Agree that the likelihood of turning it down is less at a shore based field....but I guess I'm just pessimistic. I've seen what sailors can do at sea. We're still required to monitor IAD (VHF) at sea and that is one of the most frequently turned down nets.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Agree that the likelihood of turning it down is less at a shore based field....but I guess I'm just pessimistic. I've seen what sailors can do at sea. We're still required to monitor IAD (VHF) at sea and that is one of the most frequently turned down nets.
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Agree at sea. For a land based controller to do it would be akin to forgetting to wear his uniform. Just vastly different priorities between the two.
 
Apache123 said:
Interesting thread so far.

I'm former Navy, stationed down in Pensacola for a while. NAS down there allows civs on base just about every day of the week to go to the aviation museum, which is attached to their airfield. Has anyone ever flown-in to that museum? Are they open to this if you call and schedule in advance with the tower?
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I recently did, but it was in a Hornet so there wasn't an issue landing there. Have never done it in a civilian aircraft. My guess is that it would be annoying compared to many of the nearby airports. Continuous T-6, T-45, T-39, Blue Angel (during part of the year) traffic, 350 kt overhead break, Navy style carrier pattern, with tons of students (both at the controls coming from elsewhere, as well as back seaters in training from the local commands). Not something I'd want to deal with in a civilian aircraft personally. Cool museum though.....bought my wife some space food and a pint glass from the shop as she's really into souveniers :)
 
I flew this route on Sunday except I was coming from Newport News and flying into JGG. What I generally do is when departing runway 20 or 25, just climb out of Newport News until I get to 3000 and then head direct JGG. If I depart to the north, I just fly up the york river instead. (Consider transitioning through Newport News airspace, controllers there are awesome) Once you get past Felker, you can start your descent into Williamsburg. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, just peel out to the south side of the james river to go around Felker airspace.


...Also, don't take this as permission to bust airspace but I have been flying out of Newport News for a few years now and have never heard of someone getting caught busting Felker airspace. It almost looks like an abandoned airstrip from the air...Very little traffic

Good luck, Charlys restaurant is the best there is.
 
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