Transient Tie downs, or lack there of.

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bluesideup

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bluesideup
Hello everyone.

More and more airports, that are Not private, are eliminating Transient spaces, leaving us at the mercy of some of these FBOs that are charging us for something that we are already paying for.

Does anyone know why are they allowed to do that, if they get FAA money, or other services, it would seem reasonable that they should have some spaces that transients can use for a short period of time, without having to pay as much as $45.00, or more, for .5-1.0hrs. stay?

They are not able to provide the services that would adjust that charge, like the fuel type, etc., but they still feel like they are justified to charge, and in many there are many empty areas where could be used for transient.


Does anyone know if there is any movement, from any of the organizations, or groups, to rectify this problem?

While some airports are controlled by the City, County, etc... if they receive money from FAA, it would seem reasonable that they should all follow the same rules, and be mandated to have some spaces for transients.


Does anyone knows what they need to do, to justify, in order to eliminate the Transient spaces, and can that be stopped, short of act of Congress, which is not likely to happen?
 
An act of congress is probably going to be about it...the FBO rents space from the airport authority, and they have the right to charge for the use of that space. Airport authorities are moving away from direct responsibility for parking spaces, probably for a combination of liability and staffing issues.
 
I mainly see this problem with slightly larger/busier airports that have some sort of commercial traffic. The excuse I always hear involves security. They force you to go through the FBO because they consider it a layer of security for the airlines.

There are exceptions to that though. Pretty sure VNY doesn't have any commercial service, but you can't park anywhere for free there, that's for sure.
 
It would be interesting to see which parcels of land are not owned by a private entity (FBO/hangar lesee/etc) at airports which receive FAA funding. You would think that a patch of grass off of the apron or any non-movement area would be suitable to park without worry about parking fees at least for short-term. If you could identify such space, you might have a legal argument that it is airport property which is not sublet, and as such would not require parking fees for transient aircraft unless otherwise posted. I'm sure it would be an issue for each individual airport authority more-so than the FAA.
 
bluesideup said:
More and more airports, that are Not private, are eliminating Transient spaces, leaving us at the mercy of some of these FBOs that are charging us for something that we are already paying for.
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Can you explain that statement? How are you already paying for transient parking?

Every airport is a bit different. Some have transient ramp parking that is free. Others charge. Sometimes the FBO collects the fee for the transient parking on behalf of the airport. Sometimes the transient ramp is owned by or part of the FBO's lease and they keep the money.

I'm not quite sure what you are really getting at.
 
Maybe it's because I don't go to larger big city airports as often but I've never had a problem finding transient parking and paying fees is the exception not the rule.
 
I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for parking or tie down. But, presented with an unreasonable fee, what is stopping you from just getting in your plane and flying away without paying? What can they do? Mail you a bill? There are plenty of airports that I have or will only ever go to once. Years ago One of the line guys at Morehead City, NC used a fuel truck to block a twin that had come in to drop of a passenger and the pilot did not want to pay the tie down fee because he did not actually tie down. i am told the line guy got introuble for inerfering with an aircraft operation. Paying for gas is a different story obviously. But, tie down fees are not typically advertised anywhere that someone would made aware prior to arrival. I often call ahead, but that does not guarantee anything. I have not had any problems yet.
 
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I've never been charged for parking for anything less than an overnight stay, and often not even then if I'm taking on x gallons of fuel. But I fly exclusively West of the Mississippi so maybe it's different elsewhere.
 
Not saying I agree with it, but more and more airports are being forced to do more with less funding, so they are constantly in the search for additional revenue. It keeps getting harder justifying the cost of the airport to the city or other entity that owns it, and only larger airports are usually self-sustaining.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Years ago One of the line guys at Morehead City, NC used a fuel truck to block a twin that had come in to drop of a passenger and the pilot did not want to pay the tie down fee because he did not actually tie down. i am told the line guy got introuble for inerfering with an aircraft operation.
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Which is why many (most?) FBOs at bigger airports charge a "ramp fee", which you incur by just being there.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Can you explain that statement? How are you already paying for transient parking?

Every airport is a bit different. Some have transient ramp parking that is free. Others charge. Sometimes the FBO collects the fee for the transient parking on behalf of the airport. Sometimes the transient ramp is owned by or part of the FBO's lease and they keep the money.

I'm not quite sure what you are really getting at.
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I suspect that he means that his tax dollars pay for federal, state, county and municipal budgets. This obviously includes the FAA. On a publicly owned and funded facility like most GA airports are, allowing a private company(the FBO) to have exclusive control of the use of the facility, and the associated profits derived, is questionable. Of course, if the facility is private, and uses no public funds, the operators can and will charge whatever they wish, as it should be.
 
edo2000 said:
I suspect that he means that his tax dollars pay for federal, state, county and municipal budgets. This obviously includes the FAA. On a publicly owned and funded facility like most GA airports are, allowing a private company(the FBO) to have exclusive control of the use of the facility, and the associated profits derived, is questionable.
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Two flaws with that theory.

1) The assumption that the government money is sufficient.

2) That the FBO is "allowed" exclusive control.

The FBO pays a concession fee for the privilege and that money also is important to the operation and upkeep of the airport.
 
petrolero said:
I've never been charged for parking for anything less than an overnight stay, and often not even then if I'm taking on x gallons of fuel. But I fly exclusively West of the Mississippi so maybe it's different elsewhere.
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At Monterey AIrport (MRY), the FBOs have started charging $45 for daytime parking of small aircraft unless they buy 15 gallons of fuel.
 
Palmpilot said:
At Monterey AIrport (MRY), the FBOs have started charging $45 for daytime parking of small aircraft unless they buy 15 gallons of fuel.
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Hi.
Compounding the problem is that they do Not sell Mogas, and there is a lot of empty space all around the airport that can be used as transient tie downs area.
The $45.00 is for any amount of time over 0.5hrs.?
 
Morgan3820 said:
I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for parking or tie down. But, presented with an unreasonable fee, what is stopping you from just getting in your plane and flying away without paying? What can they do? Mail you a bill? There are plenty of airports that I have or will only ever go to once. Years ago One of the line guys at Morehead City, NC used a fuel truck to block a twin that had come in to drop of a passenger and the pilot did not want to pay the tie down fee because he did not actually tie down. i am told the line guy got introuble for inerfering with an aircraft operation. Paying for gas is a different story obviously. But, tie down fees are not typically advertised anywhere that someone would made aware prior to arrival. I often call ahead, but that does not guarantee anything. I have not had any problems yet.
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Yes.
 
Palmpilot said:
At Monterey AIrport (MRY), the FBOs have started charging $45 for daytime parking of small aircraft unless they buy 15 gallons of fuel.
Click to expand...

Slight thread shift:
I'm headed to Monterey, any feedback on OAR or SNS? Looking at OAR satellite view shows only 1 plane, is there a reason that airport is so desolate, seems like it's in a good location?
 
teejayevans said:
Slight thread shift:
I'm headed to Monterey, any feedback on OAR or SNS? Looking at OAR satellite view shows only 1 plane, is there a reason that airport is so desolate, seems like it's in a good location?
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There is nothing at OAR. No reason to go and crappy weather. And the ramp is enormous.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for parking or tie down. But, presented with an unreasonable fee, what is stopping you from just getting in your plane and flying away without paying? What can they do? Mail you a bill? There are plenty of airports that I have or will only ever go to once.
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Yes, they will send a letter to whoever the aircraft is registered to when they look up an N#..... our partnership got a letter from a flight I did. Tried to charge my little PA-28R (which when I called and when I landed and paid my fuel bill said was free) the price of a pa-46...
Once I called they got it straightened out.
 
teejayevans said:
Slight thread shift:
I'm headed to Monterey, any feedback on OAR or SNS? Looking at OAR satellite view shows only 1 plane, is there a reason that airport is so desolate, seems like it's in a good location?
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OAR is very slow, and goes IMC under the marine layer before the other airports in the area. Not much nearby, which is probably why it's kind of empty. MRY, SNS and WVI are closer to the population centers.

SNS is a nice airport, good restaurant for breakfast and lunch, friendly staff. Good folks at the FBO.
 
MAKG1 said:
There is nothing at OAR. No reason to go and crappy weather. And the ramp is enormous.
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There does appear to be ground transportation, however. The AOPA airport directory page lists five rental car companies (although none appear to have offices on the field). A phone number for taxi service is listed. Since it's a fairly well-populated area, I imagine that Uber, etc. would be an option as well.

https://www.aopa.org/airports/KOAR

There appear to be several bus lines within a few blocks:

http://mst.org/maps-schedules/system-maps/monterey-peninsula/

This site has information on some nearby points of interest:

http://www.down-and-locked.com/airport/oar/

There's self-service fuel at competitive prices next to transient parking, and a restroom near the fuel pump.
 
172andyou said:
Two flaws with that theory.

1) The assumption that the government money is sufficient.

2) That the FBO is "allowed" exclusive control.

The FBO pays a concession fee for the privilege and that money also is important to the operation and upkeep of the airport.
Click to expand...

As long as your point 2) is valid, i.e., there are other options for parking, without dealing with the -$45 for a 0.5hr stop- FBO, then I see no problem. The OP seemed to be describing a situation where the only transient spots were controlled by FBOs with business-jet pricing structures.
 
Indeed. We need more transient parking. My damn wings aren't even painted all the way you think I got 60 bucks a night for parking?!?! #tiedownlivesmatter :D
 
edo2000 said:
As long as your point 2) is valid, i.e., there are other options for parking, without dealing with the -$45 for a 0.5hr stop- FBO, then I see no problem. The OP seemed to be describing a situation where the only transient spots were controlled by FBOs with business-jet pricing structures.
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I get it. I want to be able to land at ORD, tie down for free and take advantage of public transportation to get downtown too, ideally without even buying fuel, but sometimes the "other option" that is available is a different airport.
 
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MAKG1 said:
There is nothing at OAR. No reason to go and crappy weather. And the ramp is enormous.
Click to expand...

I'm just looking for a secure ramp, cheap fuel. Don't need transportation, etc as I will be picked up. But SNS does have mechanic on site.
 
teejayevans said:
I'm just looking for a secure ramp, cheap fuel. Don't need transportation, etc as I will be picked up. But SNS does have mechanic on site.
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I haven't seen anything that would qualify as security on the OAR ramp; the fence is only three feet high. It doesn't look like a dangerous neighborhood, but I have no idea what crime rates are there.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't think they said anything about a minimum length of time when I called.
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Hi.
You are likely correct, there may Not be a grace period / time. Call before you go, or better yet, go somewhere else.
Eventually the businesses in the area will try to do something about it, when, and if, they find out?
 
Palmpilot said:
I haven't seen anything that would qualify as security on the OAR ramp; the fence is only three feet high. It doesn't look like a dangerous neighborhood, but I have no idea what crime rates are there.
Click to expand...

3 feet? Ok, thats good information, thx
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
You are likely correct, there may Not be a grace period / time. Call before you go, or better yet, go somewhere else.
Eventually the businesses in the area will try to do something about it, when, and if, they find out?
Click to expand...
Their fifteen gallon fuel purchase requirement is really not that bad, and their fuel price, while higher than the immediate vicinity, is not as bad as some I've seen. It's only an issue for me because I fly light sport aircraft, which don't hold a lot of fuel. As for the businesses on the field, they're more jet-oriented.

I see that OAR's fuel price is 50 cents less than SNS, by the way.

MRY Fuel Prices.png
 
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