Training Value From Sims?

Jim Rosenow

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Jim Rosenow
You decide...

I found this on one of the simming forums I follow. Hardware is X-Plane 11(beta) on a PC. Guy (apparently a CFI?) just recorded his sim flight and narrative....


I pass it along FWIW...ymmv.

Jim
 
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I doubt he's an FAA rated CFI. I imagine he just nicknames himself the "SimCFI" for these videos.

Desktop sims such as these have very little real world application. The only benefit they provide is instrument training and polishing up on instrument skills. As far as actual flying skills being obtained from one is nil.
 
I doubt he's an FAA rated CFI. I imagine he just nicknames himself the "SimCFI" for these videos.

Desktop sims such as these have very little real world application. The only benefit they provide is instrument training and polishing up on instrument skills. As far as actual flying skills being obtained from one is nil.

Apparently you missed the part where he mentions putting a sectional over the instruments when teaching his rw students to do turns?...

Jim
 
Apparently you missed the part where he mentions putting a sectional over the instruments when teaching his rw students to do turns?...

Jim
Must have, I didn't watch the whole thing. I got bored after about 2 minutes.
 
There is some value to flight sims, (IMO). When I first started I didn't know how to steer and use rudder to turn. Some of the add on airplanes are very realistic in FSX, (Carenado). If you fly the same model aircraft you will know right away where everything is located. You can even work on doing emergency procedures.
 
I find yaw in sims to be very hard to control because you can't feel it. You have to stare at the gauge as the only way to know. I agree that it can be useful for instrument training. I don't sim much anymore because I miss the feel of the airplane.
 
The only things I do in the sim with VFR students are instrument flying and emergency procedures.
 
Sims to me were always way harder to "fly" than the real thing. Theres no "feel" so you spend a lot more time head down looking at stuff. The interface without a full sim setup is a pain with all the hotkeys and such. Now if you have a full motion or kitted out (radio stack etc)sim you could get some good IFR practice but idt anyone has a 100k redbird sim in their basement.
 
I found a lot of help out of using sims to help with procedures. It's definitely not going to teach you the feel of an airplane, but it's great for practicing radio calls, GUMPS checks, emergency procedures, etc. I flew all of my XC training flights in the sim several times before doing it in real life. Really helped the radios and systems be less of a headache and let me focus on the flying since I already knew what to expect.
 
I doubt he's an FAA rated CFI. I imagine he just nicknames himself the "SimCFI" for these videos.

Desktop sims such as these have very little real world application. The only benefit they provide is instrument training and polishing up on instrument skills. As far as actual flying skills being obtained from one is nil.

If it was 1991, I'd be inclined to agree, but they have come a long way.

- VFR XC procedures (pilotage, dead reckoning)
- Class B, D, D radio procedures (assuming a decent ATC environment)
- non-towered CTAF calls
- pattern work
- short/soft field procedures
- emergency procedures
- crosswind landings either holding a slip all the way, or a transition from crab to slip.
- and contrary to popular belief, you really can practice stalls and slow flight, again, if the flight model isn't garbage.

For IFR, the benefits are more obvious.
 
If it was 1991, I'd be inclined to agree, but they have come a long way.

- VFR XC procedures (pilotage, dead reckoning)
- Class B, D, D radio procedures (assuming a decent ATC environment)
- non-towered CTAF calls
- pattern work
- short/soft field procedures
- emergency procedures
- crosswind landings either holding a slip all the way, or a transition from crab to slip.
- and contrary to popular belief, you really can practice stalls and slow flight, again, if the flight model isn't garbage.


For IFR, the benefits are more obvious.
From a desktop sim?

Yeah you can practice those things on them, but it's not going to give you a true to life response and feel as the airplane would. Especially pilotage, dead reckoning and pattern work. Those things cannot be taught on a home sim.
 
VFR XC procedures, Class B, C and D radio procedures, non-towered CTAF calls, pattern work and emergencies don't require 'feel'. So, I disagree, there's no question in my mind those elements can be taught in a sim.

As to the xwind landings, shorts and softs, I agree that there is an element of feel to them, however that doesn't mean they can't be honed in a sim. I had very little exposure to xwind landings in the airplane before mastering them in the sim. The sim practice absolutely helped me nail the concepts and sight picture. Is the amount of rudder pressure the same in terms of ft/lbs of torque? Nope. Does it matter? Nope.
 
From a desktop sim?

Yeah you can practice those things on them, but it's not going to give you a true to life response and feel as the airplane would. Especially pilotage, dead reckoning and pattern work. Those things cannot be taught on a home sim.

How is that? I was taught all my basic maneuvers in an FAA-approved sim and practiced them at home on my own sim. Yeah, you don't get the seat-of-the-pants sensation but that's really it.

For instance, when I did steep turns, I took my CFI's advice and practiced lining the horizon up on designated spot on my cowl for both left and right steep turns. My next training flight, I nailed my steep turns.
When I did departure stalls, I intentionally stalled uncoordinated and practiced picking up the wing with opposite rudder.
When I did S-Turns and Turns on Point, I changed my view to look out the side window and practiced maintaining the position of my wingtip relative the wind and my position.
When I practiced Lost Procedures, I was able to practice dialing up cross radials to triangulate my position.
When I was doing dead reckoning I practiced my visual check points even evaluating time and distance using a wind triangle.
For emergency procedures, I simulated vacuum failure, engine fires, fuel system failures, alternator failures.
When I needed to bone up on crosswind landings, I used my sim and I still do.

Of course all this stuff needs to be performed in a real airplane, but for practicing and firming up learned skills taught by a CFI, it beats the hell out of chair flying.

Of course if you want, you can also set up your sim to be just a game where you fly around and buzz the Statue of Liberty and I suppose most simmers do just that. But if you set up your sim as a tool and use it as such it can be incredibly powerful.
 
How is that? I was taught all my basic maneuvers in an FAA-approved sim and practiced them at home on my own sim. Yeah, you don't get the seat-of-the-pants sensation but that's really it.

For instance, when I did steep turns, I took my CFI's advice and practiced lining the horizon up on designated spot on my cowl for both left and right steep turns. My next training flight, I nailed my steep turns.
When I did departure stalls, I intentionally stalled uncoordinated and practiced picking up the wing with opposite rudder.
When I did S-Turns and Turns on Point, I changed my view to look out the side window and practiced maintaining the position of my wingtip relative the wind and my position.
When I practiced Lost Procedures, I was able to practice dialing up cross radials to triangulate my position.
When I was doing dead reckoning I practiced my visual check points even evaluating time and distance using a wind triangle.
For emergency procedures, I simulated vacuum failure, engine fires, fuel system failures, alternator failures.
When I needed to bone up on crosswind landings, I used my sim and I still do.

Of course all this stuff needs to be performed in a real airplane, but for practicing and firming up learned skills taught by a CFI, it beats the hell out of chair flying.

Of course if you want, you can also set up your sim to be just a game where you fly around and buzz the Statue of Liberty and I suppose most simmers do just that. But if you set up your sim as a tool and use it as such it can be incredibly powerful.
I agree it can be powerful and I also agree that these tasks can be done, I'm not doubting that it can't be done. What I am saying is that there's a big difference between sitting behind a computer screen with FSX than behind the yoke of a real airplane. I know for an absolute fact that pilotage, pattern work and especially stalls, steep turns and slow flight, does not translate from the sim to the real airplane. You can practice flows and procedures but that's about it. I'm speaking from experience.
 
VFR XC procedures, Class B, C and D radio procedures, non-towered CTAF calls, pattern work and emergencies don't require 'feel'. So, I disagree, there's no question in my mind those elements can be taught in a sim.

As to the xwind landings, shorts and softs, I agree that there is an element of feel to them, however that doesn't mean they can't be honed in a sim. I had very little exposure to xwind landings in the airplane before mastering them in the sim. The sim practice absolutely helped me nail the concepts and sight picture. Is the amount of rudder pressure the same in terms of ft/lbs of torque? Nope. Does it matter? Nope.
You mentioned that stalls and slow flight can be accurately practiced on the sim. As I mentioned above, I can guarantee that this is not the case. Try doing these two maneuvers sitting behind your computer screen and then do them in the real airplane. Completely different, I promise.

I'm not bashing the simulators, I am just speaking from past experience that the simulator does not do all aspects of hand flying a justice.

Use it for IFR and it's fantastic.
 
Sorry Ryan, I've done everything I've described, including slow flight and stalls, and it was extremely valuable to practice in the sim. I'm not saying every single aspect is identical, but there's enough good stuff there and minimal negative training. As for pattern work, I have no idea why you feel as though it's completely different doing it it in the airplane than the sim. The control loads (in terms of absolute torque) are different, but that's about it, near as I can tell. And yes, I've done them hundreds of times in the aircraft and thousands of times in the sim, so I'm speaking from experience, too.

I do agree with you that the simulator "does not do all aspects of hand flying a justice." However, I'd argue that the number of aspects is smaller than you've proposed.
 
From a desktop sim?
Especially pilotage, dead reckoning and pattern work. Those things cannot be taught on a home sim.
That's where you are very wrong.

You can indeed teach and practice dead reckoning using the early PC flight sims of the 1980s.

My dad taught me how to dead reckon back when I was in junior high. I would fire up the old SubLogic Flight Sim 2.0, set in some wind, and launch from SAN Diego, fly to Catalina Island, Long Beach and then back to SD all with dead reckoning (in the clouds).

Modern sims are even better with visuals and the ability to more realistically reduce the visibility.

As far as pattern work, you don't teach it in the sim, but you can definitely practice it. As a student pilot, I found it very helpful to practice pattern work on the flight sim when I had to go extended periods without a lesson.
 
Sims are only as good as the instructor participating in it.

Sims are an amazing tool, when utilized by a good teacher.
 
Sims are only as good as the instructor participating in it.

Sims are an amazing tool, when utilized by a good teacher.
I think there is a fair amount of truth to that. A sim can be useful, or it can create a lot of problems and/or bad habits.
 
That's where you are very wrong.

You can indeed teach and practice dead reckoning using the early PC flight sims of the 1980s.

My dad taught me how to dead reckon back when I was in junior high. I would fire up the old SubLogic Flight Sim 2.0, set in some wind, and launch from SAN Diego, fly to Catalina Island, Long Beach and then back to SD all with dead reckoning (in the clouds).

Modern sims are even better with visuals and the ability to more realistically reduce the visibility.

As far as pattern work, you don't teach it in the sim, but you can definitely practice it. As a student pilot, I found it very helpful to practice pattern work on the flight sim when I had to go extended periods without a lesson.
I should've left dead-reckoning out as I rephrased it in the following posts after that. I can understand DR can be done, I was more referring to pilotage in that example. I've seen very few desktop sims that provide high enough resolution to accurately be able to do this. Looking at a flat partially pixelated landscape doesn't quite correlate to real world experience. Especially the stalls and slow flight. Maybe I haven't used the sim that some of you all have, but my experience was that these tasks in particular cannot be performed in the correct manner as would be in an aircraft.
 
Especially the stalls and slow flight. Maybe I haven't used the sim that some of you all have, but my experience was that these tasks in particular cannot be performed in the correct manner as would be in an aircraft.
That is somewhat true. Stalls and slow flight are about feeling the airplane. You can practice them in the sim from a strictly procedural standpoint (i.e. Prepping for the checkride), but you really need to have the feel first in the airplane.
 
That is somewhat true. Stalls and slow flight are about feeling the airplane. You can practice them in the sim from a strictly procedural standpoint (i.e. Prepping for the checkride), but you really need to have the feel first in the airplane.

You can practice flows and procedures but that's about it.
Exactly, and as I stated above. Stalls and slow flight require you to feel the airplane, (torque, p-factor and wind effects etc.) that the sim can't reproduce. The sim is excellent, but many things just can't be substituted by it.

You can understand how it's done by using the sim, but you won't actually know how it's done until you experience it in the airplane. If we're talking about a level 5 sim, than it's a completely different story. ;)
 
For those who took the time to watch the video....I thought one interesting aspect to the clip was the training environment he had manufactured for the 'student'. He was teaching the basic premises....learn the nose position relative to the horizon, how to watch for inadvertent turns, etc. Instead of renting a noisy, hot/cold airplane for beacoup $$$, he had a couple grand invested, and a couple cents electricity to provide a controlled learning environment. I suggest that much of what he was teaching would directly transfer to the aircraft environment. As always, YMMV :)

Jim
 
No comment on the value of flight training from sims. But there was great value in flight training for Sims.

--Hank Sims, PPL, IA
 
Personally, I always loved flying as a kid with my dad, but that was way in the past. Tried a sim and got kinda excited about "virtually flying again" and also being able to learn a little about how to fly.

Then after a while, thought "why not learn to fly the real thing". Even though at that stage the sim wasn't much (old ms 2000 flight sim on an old laptop) it got me remembering how great it was to fly. I knew I wasn't experiencing the same thing in a sim of course. But it seemed cool anyway. I tried to land, and bank, etc. but that sim (maybe settings?) seemed very forgiving about hard, weird, crabbing landings...

Anyway, I looked into flight clubs, started taking lessons, and just at the start had bought a new X plane sim that was supposed to be very good, but need a new laptop to run it in (mainly because of storage space) and haven't gone further yet.

But at this stage I wouldn't be using it even if I had a new laptop. Not yet anyway.
As someone pointed out, because of lack of feel, and no surround screens one ends up looking a lot more at the instruments than one would or should in a real flight. So I am very leary of bad habits. My instructor quickly broke me of fixating on the instruments, and using actual horizon and eyes outside more.

But then I realized that this is kind of an important stage, learning procedures, etc. and I didn't want other bad habits developing. I feel very strongly that I don't want to practice without my instructor who would stop me from bad habits.

For now. I expect later on to be able to use and enjoy using the sims for cross country, navigation training, etc. but only after I have learned the actual procedures so they sit.
 
No comment on the value of flight training from sims. But there was great value in flight training for Sims.

--Hank Sims, PPL, IA

So if they were to replicate you in a training environment....it'd be a Sims sim?

Jim
 
It's kind of boring, but when you realize the FAA Approved Redbird flight simulator is based upon MS Flight simulator then you kind of realize there is some value. I found it useful for things you would not try in the real plane, like what altitude to turn back to the runway and survive an engine out. 800 feet for a 172 You have to do the turn very properly and the whole time in the turn you have a face full of ground. But you realize why people stall it and spin in because they are not willing to point the nose at the ground. OR how to set the mixture for Telluride so the engine does not die.
 
It's kind of boring, but when you realize the FAA Approved Redbird flight simulator is based upon MS Flight simulator then you kind of realize there is some value. I found it useful for things you would not try in the real plane, like what altitude to turn back to the runway and survive an engine out. 800 feet for a 172 You have to do the turn very properly and the whole time in the turn you have a face full of ground. But you realize why people stall it and spin in because they are not willing to point the nose at the ground. OR how to set the mixture for Telluride so the engine does not die.

Both of those things are going to be quite different in a real airplane. And you've learned the wrong lesson if 800 feet is a hard number. It's quite different in a 20 knot headwind on a short runway, or if there is a cross-runway around.

What a sim can do for you very well is fail your instruments in the clouds, in a realistic way. Covering up an AI and announcing that your vacuum system failed is not at all realistic. Neither is putting a cardboard cutout over a PFD. Having an AI spin down slowly and turn you over (if your scan isn't very good) is much better. There are still some instrument failures it won't do right (neither of my in-flight failures were anything like training, though one of them probably could have been), but some of the common ones are pretty good.

The Redbird sims have quite realistic compass errors as well. But what they don't have is a correct feel for the Garmin 530. The knobs are just too finicky; the real device is substantially easier to use.

Setting the mixture at Telluride is easy. You do it at run-up. Lean for maximum RPM, at full power if there is any doubt. No way in hell I'd trust FSX to get that number right. I've had a few too many impossible climbs in a 172 using that.
 
I guess you can get something out of a sim. I have a DC9, DC8, MD11, B757/767 type ratings. First flight with passengers was my first flight in the airplane. Of course my sim costs about ten million dollars.
 
It's kind of boring, but when you realize the FAA Approved Redbird flight simulator is based upon MS Flight simulator then you kind of realize there is some value. I found it useful for things you would not try in the real plane, like what altitude to turn back to the runway and survive an engine out. 800 feet for a 172 You have to do the turn very properly and the whole time in the turn you have a face full of ground. But you realize why people stall it and spin in because they are not willing to point the nose at the ground. OR how to set the mixture for Telluride so the engine does not die.

We have a redbird with g1000, so can't comment on the g 530. I used it to complete 3/4 of my instrument rating and it worked out great. I had simulated instrument time from over the years which did help too. It actually runs off prepar3d, not ms flight sim. Keith also helped us set up Pilotedge which is great for practice.
 
As far as actual flying skills being obtained from one is nil.

In life there are rarely such absolutes. I suppose you think the Airplane Flying Handbook, chair flying, and preflight maneuver briefings are also all valueless since they have no "feel".
 
In life there are rarely such absolutes. I suppose you think the Airplane Flying Handbook, chair flying, and preflight maneuver briefings are also all valueless since they have no "feel".
Big difference from my intended meaning to those examples. I don't know of anyone who has solely used a simulator and then was competent enough to fly the real airplane. I used MSFS with a joystick for years before I ever started flight training. Granted, I felt far ahead when it came to receiving dual instruction, but I wasn't anywhere close to being skilled enough to fly the airplane based off my "sim experience." You learn flying skills from receiving dual instruction from a CFI in a real airplane, not from sitting behind a computer monitor.

And no I don't think the 3 examples you mentioned are valueless.
 
I don't know of anyone who has solely used a simulator and then was competent enough to fly the real airplane. I used MSFS with a joystick for years before I ever started flight training. Granted, I felt far ahead when it came to receiving dual instruction...

That is completely different from your previous argument in which you said (except for instrument training) the benefit of a simulator was "nil" -- meaning nonexistent.
 
My CFII said he did a fair amount of his instrument training on MSF..... besides it is cool to land the Caravan on the aircraft carrier, can't do that in real life. Also you can learn to restart the Caravan vs. just taking the find a landing place option. So learning situational awareness is also a benefit. Since I did not know how to start a turbine and I do now, that would be a benefit. Might never get to in real life, but you never know when the pilot is going to eat fish.
 
That is completely different from your previous argument in which you said (except for instrument training) the benefit of a simulator was "nil" -- meaning nonexistent.
So how is that different from my previous argument? I already said instrument training is some of the most useful real world application that can be gained from desktop sims.

If you read the context of my original post, it's pretty clear that "actual flying skills" referred to hand flying maneuvers of a real aircraft.
 
So how is that different from my previous argument?

Well for someone with such a binary thought process, I guess it isn't. But to me there is a wide continuum between "zero benefit" and "can't reach full competency using a simulator by itself".
 
My CFII said he did a fair amount of his instrument training on MSF..... besides it is cool to land the Caravan on the aircraft carrier, can't do that in real life. Also you can learn to restart the Caravan vs. just taking the find a landing place option. So learning situational awareness is also a benefit. Since I did not know how to start a turbine and I do now, that would be a benefit. Might never get to in real life, but you never know when the pilot is going to eat fish.

Ah...starting procedures! Let me add that some of the aircraft are extremely realistic with their procedures. I have a Carenado T210 add-on a/c in my XPX. Unless I use the proper start sequence....master on, mixture and throttle full forward, aux fuel pump on low to ?? pounds, throttle to idle, then starter...the darned thing will NOT start. Also possible to flood the engine, and only proper procedure will un-flood it. To me, that has value.

Jim
 
Ah...starting procedures! Let me add that some of the aircraft are extremely realistic with their procedures. I have a Carenado T210 add-on a/c in my XPX. Unless I use the proper start sequence....master on, mixture and throttle full forward, aux fuel pump on low to ?? pounds, throttle back, then starter...the darned thing will NOT start. Also possible to flood the engine, and only proper procedure will un-flood it. To me, that has value.

Jim

The A2A AccuSim is even moreso.
 
I think there is a fair amount of truth to that. A sim can be useful, or it can create a lot of problems and/or bad habits.

Agreed! It happened to me. I was one of those FSX flight sim refugees thinking that I could transfer everything over and I would do well..I was wrong. My first lesson all I did was look at the dials and not outside...VERY bad habit, So my CFI at the time told me to look outside and then glace at the dials so I went back on the flight sim and did that and fixed the issue. So flight sims can be productive as long as you learn the right thing and then practice on the sim. Another thing that I noticed is the trim on the Sim (Saitek) is more sensitive then in real life.
 
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