Training tips and tricks?

[flyingmoose]

I didn't really know how to title this, but here goes... As a CFI I have been doing some BFR's and aircraft checkouts and I have been noticing with some of the freshly minted pilots, that they are lacking experiences that, would not make them unsafe so to speak, but might help with confidence.

For example I had a checkout yesterday and the guy just got his license. He flew great, but during conversation I learned things from him. I asked him to do a no flap landing. He said he had never done one and looked like he might not know how to. He ultimately did it with some guidance, but it made me think about how much they have never seen and how they would react be themselves. I am sure he could have gotten it on the ground safely, but the confidence he had after he did it once was like "Oh that wasn't bad!" I like to learn from them thru conversation, what they might be a little uncomfortable with and have them do it. Like if they have never been on actual grass runway, or controlled airspace makes them nervous etc...

SO question for CFI's and students (We have all been students).

What do you like to show/teach your students outside of the normal requirements?

What do you wish someone would have shown you when you were a student?

 

[HerrGruyere]

I remember for my last stage check before my checkride the chief pilot of the school had me do a no flap landing. I heard of them and thought that was only pertinent for a sport pilot license. But hey, I just thought if others have landed with no flaps, then I reckon this thing can, too. He just told me to not stray from best glide and I'd be fine.

The other thing he mentioned was during turns around a point, it's not uncommon to have the point ahead or behind the wing depending on your crab angle. That really helped me get a better sight picture regarding how to keep the plane the same distance away from the point.

I felt awesome after that ride. It was a harder ride than my actual checkride due to nerves, maneuvers done, and some wicked crosswinds.

 

[Matthew]

Not a CFI - I think I had some pretty thorough training, so I don't know what else could have been added. I do wish I had seem some spins during training, though. Some of that was because of spin limitations in the aircraft and flight school rules.

Other than that, I have always enjoyed the chance to learn something new at each flight review. I know so many people just want to get it over with in the minimum required time, though.

I do like to be able to horse the airplane around the sky with maneuvers I'd never do on my own but that really aren't taught until commercial. During my PP training I did learn my own limitations, but never really got a chance to learn the limitations of the airplane. That is something I'd like to experience a little more - I don't expect to become expert in one lesson, but I do like the chance to at least give it a try.

However, I do need more unusual-attitude-recovery-under-the-hood practice, so that time would be better spent there.

 

[douglas393]

A number of things I have read on this forum which I would have liked during training include Jesse's flight into the unknown where he takes the student out, gets him disoriented as to location and has him figure out where they are and how to get home via dead reckoning, flying the pattern without use of instruments, and spin training.

Another thing I would have liked to see when I was doing PPL was how it really feels to go from VMC into IMC. The hood does not really demonstrate the disorienting effect of this and especially for those that never go for their IFR, or delay it this experience may save their life. Doing it under the control of a CFII may save someone's life.

Crosswind training is always a good thing as well.

Simulated emergencies and near emergencies as well.

Doug

 

[MAKG1]

No no-flap landings in training?

Isn't that covered by 14 CFR 61.107(b)(1)(x)?

It's certainly in the PTS (X.B.2.i, or in a Cessna, X.B.2.e). That can be skipped if other emergency operations are substituted, but it seems to be commonly used.

Sounds like the primary CFI was a bit negligent here.

 

[flyingmoose]

Not a CFI - I think I had some pretty thorough training, so I don't know what else could have been added. I do wish I had seem some spins during training, though. Some of that was because of spin limitations in the aircraft and flight school rules.

Other than that, I have always enjoyed the chance to learn something new at each flight review. I know so many people just want to get it over with in the minimum required time, though.

I do like to be able to horse the airplane around the sky with maneuvers I'd never do on my own but that really aren't taught until commercial. During my PP training I did learn my own limitations, but never really got a chance to learn the limitations of the airplane. That is something I'd like to experience a little more - I don't expect to become expert in one lesson, but I do like the chance to at least give it a try.

However, I do need more unusual-attitude-recovery-under-the-hood practice, so that time would be better spent there.

Those are some of the thing I am talking about. I try and get them to tell me thru conversation what the are not really proficient in or haven't seen before, so maybe we can broaden the horizons a bit.

 

[flyingmoose]

No no-flap landings in training?

Isn't that covered by 14 CFR 61.107(b)(1)(x)?

It's certainly in the PTS (X.B.2.i, or in a Cessna, X.B.2.e). That can be skipped if other emergency operations are substituted, but it seems to be commonly used.

Sounds like the primary CFI was a bit negligent here.

Ok well I am not going to get into that who should have done what game.

61.107 b 1 x is emergency procedures, one could say that would be covered there, but I don't, its not an emergency by any means.

There are a lot of things that could happen that is not going to be covered in the short training cycle. I have flown with many who can do soft field landing all day long, but they have never actually been to a soft field. They seem a bit nervous about it, so we go try it. That is what im trying to find out from others.

 

[douglas393]

No no-flap landings in training?

Isn't that covered by 14 CFR 61.107(b)(1)(x)?

It's certainly in the PTS (X.B.2.i, or in a Cessna, X.B.2.e). That can be skipped if other emergency operations are substituted, but it seems to be commonly used.

Sounds like the primary CFI was a bit negligent here.

Before we crucify yet another, I would propose that the student may have been taught no flap landings, and forgot what he was taught. Long ago I was taught that we retain about 10% to 20% of what we are taught and do not use on a regular basis. I know if I do not review or practice certain procedures, or subjects that I do not do on a regular basis I forget how to do them. In terms of training, there has been a number of times where I swore I was not taught something, that I was but just forgot that I was taught it because I was taught so many other things in combination with it.

Doug

 

[MDeitch1976]

Now that I have received my temporary airman. I am going to ask my instructor what she would have liked to teach me, or would still like to teach me as a private pilot. Just because I have my PPL, doesn't mean there is not more to learn. I am waiting for one of my instructors to get her plane ready for Unusual Attitude Training, which I would really like to gain some experience. Of course, I still have much to learn by just going out and flying XC on my own.

 

[wabower]

Somewhere along the training path I like to demonstrate the "trapped on top of a layer with total gyro and electrical failure" scenario. I know it's a trumped-up deal but helps demonstrate aircraft performance and behavior characteristics that the student may not have seen before.

At altitude, tell the student to maintain S heading on the compass, power to idle, full flaps, full aft trim. Then tell him to cross his arms on his chest and control direction with rudder input only. Plane will slow to slightly over VSO and descend nicely with minor bobbing oscillations that may briefly activate the horn. Student's confidence and understanding in the maneuver, and the simplicity involved in achieving it, are usually "wow, I had no idea it would do that."

For simulated IMC demo or more realistic failure, use the same drill with foggles or hood on the student and a bath towel thrown over the panel.

 

[dell30rb]

At altitude, tell the student to maintain S heading on the compass, power to idle, full flaps, full aft trim. Then tell him to cross his arms on his chest and control direction with rudder input only. Plane will slow to slightly over VSO and descend nicely with minor bobbing oscillations that may briefly activate the horn. Student's confidence and understanding in the maneuver, and the simplicity involved in achieving it, are usually "wow, I had no idea it would do that."

I'll have to try that in the cub. I've always wondered what would happen if I got trapped on top of a layer. Of course that would really never happen because I just would not put myself in that situation. Its made even more unlikely because I typically cruise at 1000-1500agl

Honestly my plan if I ever somehow got trapped on top was to put it into a spin and just hold full rudder with the stick aft against the stop. Unless the ceiling was very low, that should work. It recovers in just a few hundred feet.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Fueling.

So many crashes happen due to fuel exhaustion, but most renters and club members have never been taught how to fuel an airplane at a self-serve pump, which could be contributing to the "well, it's only 10 minutes more to get home" decisions that are made all too often.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Let me start by saying I had a great primary CFI (in fact, I'm using him for my IR) and he did teach me all the right things in the right ways I think. However I learned when I was getting checked out in my plane that there was so much more out there. With the CFI who got me checked out in my airplane (20 hours, then I flew with another friend for 15 or so on IFR plans in IMC for experience before my IR) he took me to several different grass fiels, clearly no PAPI or VASI and also strips shorter than I'd ever seen. We did many no-flap landings since I saw that was mentioned. I wasn't really taught a lot about really unctrolled airspace (I learned at a D under a B, and even did the B transition as a student solo XC) without any radar contact or radio contact if you're lowish. With the other CFI I flew in my airplane with for awhile we actually found actual IMC, went and shot actual approaches and when on IFR XC's... I haven't seen IMC since even though just the other day we had it I think that that experience helped me a ton in understanding why the IR was important and knowing that I can do fine in actual IMC.

 

[wabower]

I'd guess either method would work if you practice, and in probability neither will ever be necessary for most pilots. I received one thank-you letter a few years ago from a pilot who found himself in a situation that required use of the maneuver, but that's the only feed-back I've ever received.

I use it to show that directional control and wings-level flight can be maintained with rudders only as well as to reinforce that lateral upsets are often caused by cross-control or other inappropriate pilot inputs and that they can be eliminated by hands-off the yoke. The low airspeed scares the crap out of most of them at first, but then they are amazed that it will fly like that and that the performance is so tame. Please post the results when you try it in your Cub.

neither will i

I'll have to try that in the cub. I've always wondered what would happen if I got trapped on top of a layer. Of course that would really never happen because I just would not put myself in that situation. Its made even more unlikely because I typically cruise at 1000-1500agl

Honestly my plan if I ever somehow got trapped on top was to put it into a spin and just hold full rudder with the stick aft against the stop. Unless the ceiling was very low, that should work. It recovers in just a few hundred feet.

 

[crash7]

I like to give a lesson where the student makes climbing turns to pick their way up through a scattered/broken layer to get on top. Then we find a new hole to get back down again. Learn throttle/bank/airspeed management. Not in a syllabus, but a real-word skill that might be needed someday.
Goes right along with self-fueling, asking ATC for help when lost (amazing the number of pilots who don't even consider that an option), etc.

 

[Matthew]

This all goes to show why it's called a "license to learn".

 

[poadeleted20]

What do you like to show/teach your students outside of the normal requirements?

I was not aware that no-flap landings were not a "normal requirement" in flap-equipped aircraft. I thought that training on any foreseeable system failure was required.

In any event, in terms of what things to cover, I don't think I go beyond what's in the regs and PTS, but I may cover them in more depth than some other instructors.

 

[flyingmoose]

I was not aware that no-flap landings were not a "normal requirement" in flap-equipped aircraft. I thought that training on any foreseeable system failure was required.

In any event, in terms of what things to cover, I don't think I go beyond what's in the regs and PTS, but I may cover them in more depth than some other instructors.

Well Ron, to me they would be normal to teach a new student, but I really don't have a written requirement for that, just that fact that it could happen and you want to cover all the bases with what they could see. I can agree with that.

In any event I did not prep said student for his checkride. Its not really about the no-flap landing, its not that big a deal, its about showing things that maybe don't get cover all the time or covered enough. I have heard some really good ideas so far. I really try and think outside the box a bit and get pilots on bfr's and checkouts to go above there comfort a bit. Nothing special about that, just looking for other ideas.

 

[thezoolityre]

I am almost a CFI and I have never landed on a grass strip in my life... ya... also I kind of want to master riding one main on a touch and go

 

[poadeleted20]

Well Ron, to me they would be normal to teach a new student, but I really don't have a written requirement for that,

How about 61.87(d)(11) covering the requirements before solo in ASEL, 61.107(b)(1)(x) covering the requirements to endorse for PP-ASEL, and Area X/Task C element 2l in the PP-Airplane PTS?

In any event I did not prep said student for his checkride. Its not really about the no-flap landing, its not that big a deal,

Not covering all the regulatorily required items before endorsing for solo or the practical test is a very big deal indeed, and one which can result in the CFI's certificate being suspended.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am almost a CFI and I have never landed on a grass strip in my life...

OK, there's one non-required item I try to do if possible for all primary trainees. We all have to teach soft-field landings and takeoffs, at least on a paved runway, but there's no requirement that we actually do one on a real "soft" field.

 

[flyingmoose]

How about 61.87(d)(11) covering the requirements before solo in ASEL, 61.107(b)(1)(x) covering the requirements to endorse for PP-ASEL, and Area X/Task C element 2l in the PP-Airplane PTS?

I suppose you could put it under equipment malfuntion for sure in 61.87 d 11 I agree with you. If u see it as an emergency then you could use 61.107 b 1 x, like I said earlier.

Not covering all the regulatorily required items before endorsing for solo or the practical test is a very big deal indeed, and one which can result in the CFI's certificate being suspended.

Ok Ron, thats not why I posted. That is his problem.

 

[dell30rb]

I like to give a lesson where the student makes climbing turns to pick their way up through a scattered/broken layer to get on top. Then we find a new hole to get back down again. Learn throttle/bank/airspeed management. Not in a syllabus, but a real-word skill that might be needed someday.
Goes right along with self-fueling, asking ATC for help when lost (amazing the number of pilots who don't even consider that an option), etc.

That's a good lesson, even in good VMC flying around clouds can be a little disorienting at first until you get used to it. There is that tendency to want to just climb up and over stuff by subconsciously pulling back on the yoke

 

[whifferdill]

Honestly my plan if I ever somehow got trapped on top was to put it into a spin and just hold full rudder with the stick aft against the stop.

Hey Ren - spin would work, but I would just hold the stick on the aft stop and keep the rudder neutral and power at idle. It'll bob a little, won't spin, and you can recover much quicker and with less altitude loss when you (hopefully) break out.

Unless the ceiling was very low...

And that's the part that'll ruin your day. In the Cub, I think you'd probably survive the descent I described above with a broken back if the ceiling went to zero. You'd be dead in a spin.

Disclaimer note before we get jumped on - all this talk is completely academic!

 

[poadeleted20]

I suppose you could put it under equipment malfuntion for sure in 61.87 d 11 I agree with you. If u see it as an emergency then you could use 61.107 b 1 x, like I said earlier.

I see a flap system failure as an "emergency," but that could be just me. However, there's no question a flap system failure is part of the PTS section listed, and the endorsing instructor is certifying that the applicant is capable of doing everything in the PTS.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I see a flap system failure as an "emergency," but that could be just me.

Really? An emergency? In what way is that an "emergency"???

A flap problem is an abnormal procedure.

 

[bflynn]

What constitutes an emergency is at the discretion of the PIC and nobody else. If your cahones are big enough that a flap failure only constitutes an abnormal procedure, then more power to you. If someone else chooses to be cautious and consider any abnormal procedure as the first step in an accident chain that demands to be broken, then I say more power to them.

Looking at flap incidents, I found this one interesting...not your average failure to deploy... http://www.thomaspturner.net/split flaps Musketeer.htm

 

[wabower]

Whatever blows your skirt, but my definition of an emergency means I'm asking them to roll the equipment.

"Tower, Cessna 54321 downwind landing 35, declaring an emergency."

"Cessna 321 the field is yours, runway of your choice. Do you need the equipment?"

"321 Affirmative. I can't get the flaps down."

" . . . Reallly?"

What constitutes an emergency is at the discretion of the PIC and nobody else. If your cahones are big enough that a flap failure only constitutes an abnormal procedure, then more power to you. If someone else chooses to be cautious and consider any abnormal procedure as the first step in an accident chain that demands to be broken, then I say more power to them.

Looking at flap incidents, I found this one interesting...not your average failure to deploy... http://www.thomaspturner.net/split flaps Musketeer.htm

 

[Fearless Tower]

Whatever blows your skirt, but my definition of an emergency means I'm asking them to roll the equipment.

"Tower, Cessna 54321 downwind landing 35, declaring an emergency."

"Cessna 321 the field is yours, runway of your choice. Do you need the equipment?"

"321 Affirmative. I can't get the flaps down."

" . . . Reallly?"

FWIW, I was departing PHX a few months ago and a Dash 8 declared an emergency with ATC for a flap failure while on approach (flaps wouldn't extend).


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[dell30rb]

FWIW, I was departing PHX a few months ago and a Dash 8 declared an emergency with ATC for a flap failure while on approach (flaps wouldn't extend).


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Its probably a little bit different in a dash 8. Further it could have been company rules to consider a flap failure an emergency.

GA we are used to having thousands of feet of extra runway. And no concerns fir our landing gear if we land at 60 kts instead of 45

 

[Z06_Mir]

A Dash 8 I can see declaring an emergency for that. Not getting stopped in time is a potential issue, though I'm guessing it was landing on one of the 10,000 foot runways at KPHX but eh whatever. It also could have been a spacing issue because he couldn't slow to whatever ATC wanted for it. I wouldn't declare an emergency for flaps not extending unless I was on a short runway in which I'd go find somewhere new and it probably wouldn't be towered anyway. Now if only one flap deployed we'd have a problem of controllability...

 

[RotorAndWing]

FWIW, I was departing PHX a few months ago and a Dash 8 declared an emergency with ATC for a flap failure while on approach (flaps wouldn't extend).


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I was doing an enroute inspection on a CRJ 200 into Atlanta last winter. Flaps wouldn't extend, crew gets out the QRH, does the procedure and lands. No emergency declared. Also in the large transport category airplanes I've operated flap issues are handled as abnormals.

In a small GA airplane it's a non event. In a 172 the speed changes by what? 10knots??

 

[wabower]

Ditto G-V. Just tell tower you're no-flap and will be landing long. Then remember to let it roll and don't overheat the brakes.

I was doing an enroute inspection on a CRJ 200 into Atlanta last winter. Flaps wouldn't extend, crew gets out the QRH, does the procedure and lands. No emergency declared. Also in the large transport category airplanes I've operated flap issues are handled as abnormals.

In a small GA airplane it's a non event. In a 172 the speed changes by what? 10knots??

 

[Dead Stick]

Whatever blows your skirt, but my definition of an emergency means I'm asking them to roll the equipment.

"Tower, Cessna 54321 downwind landing 35, declaring an emergency."

"Cessna 321 the field is yours, runway of your choice. Do you need the equipment?"

"321 Affirmative. I can't get the flaps down."

" . . . Reallly?"

Yeah, kind'a like the the fighter pilot who called for landing priority because his single-engine jet fighter was running "a bit peaked." ATC told the fighter jock that he was number two behind a B-52 that had one engine shut down. "Ahhhh," the fighter pilot remarked, "The dreaded seven-engine approach."

 

[Dead Stick]

I was doing an enroute inspection on a CRJ 200 into Atlanta last winter. Flaps wouldn't extend, crew gets out the QRH, does the procedure and lands. No emergency declared. Also in the large transport category airplanes I've operated flap issues are handled as abnormals.

In a small GA airplane it's a non event. In a 172 the speed changes by what? 10knots??

Even OEI in 3+ engine jets are Abnormal procedures. But heck, a little drama never hurt anyone.

 

[wabower]

Just checked King Air B-200 QRH. No-flap is listed as abnormal there as well.

Even OEI in 3+ engine jets are Abnormal procedures. But heck, a little drama never hurt anyone.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Really? An emergency? In what way is that an "emergency"???

A flap problem is an abnormal procedure.

If your only choice is a very short strip to land in, it's definately an emergency. It's just a matter of degree.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe a "stuff I only did well after I had my ticket" list is in order...

- Planned, navigated, and flew more than 500 nm away from home 'drome in a single day.

- Landed on dirt, grass, anything "unimproved". (Not a single rental outfit around here would allow it, even with a CFI.)

- Flew a night XC more than 300 nm away from home 'drome. No cheating, launch after fully dark. (Had however flown the Eastern plains with an overcast and no moon. Healthy respect for it before my ticket.)

- Flew a brand new airplane. (The industry was in shutdown in 1991 when I started as far as trainers go. First brand new airplane was a restart Cessna 172. Had never seen anything on the ramp that wasn't 20 years old until those showed up.)

- AI rolled over and died after the drunken sailor leans prior to death. (Have seen that three times now, once in my own aircraft. Never happened in training. However I did have a DG spin in training.)

- Shut the electrical system off in flight.

- Ever touched an autopilot anywhere but in a simulator. They were all either placarded INOP or dead. Nobody had an S-TEC.

- Ever watched an autopilot not fly correctly, in both subtle and "whoa, hang on" types of failure.

- Went somewhere overnight. (What I mean here is figuring out the logistics the first time is a bit daunting. Where to tie down? How much does it cost? Rental cars/Courtesy cars/hitch hiking. If there are two FBOs, how to choose. Etc.)

- Went somewhere specifically for fun away from the airport at the far end.

- Went somewhere specifically for business (with resulting schedule pressure having read about get-there-itis but never experiencing it, and having to make a deal with myself that if weather didn't cooperate, being late to meet a customer is always better than being dead).

- Took a stranger up in an airplane.

- There could be a large sub-list of weather phenomena seen only long after the ticket.

Things I did get to do that many haven't... Apparently...

- No flap landings, god yes. Those and "stuck elevator, use the trim wheel" and "jammed rudder" and... Whatever.

- Spins, yes.

- Spins to a heading.

- Loose formation flight with a like type and full (proper) formal briefing.

- Watched him do one-wheel takeoffs and attempted one myself (not that successfully). Never mastered it. Not going to practice with my $ tires. Ha.

- "Turn base at the numbers, land on the 1000' marker.", yes.

- "Fly final at pattern altitude, 1/2 mile out, start descent, land on the numbers", yes.

- "Down and stopped by the 1000' marker". "Okay, see how close you can get to 500' next one."

(The preceding were usually followed with, "Or you owe me a Coke." Haha. Make it fun.)

- And who knows how many times the engine "quit". Heh. Normal but he'd set it up from time to time that we could land at some Podunk airport out of it if I was paying attention to where I was and realized the airport was behind me.

And the one neither of us expected but neither will ever forget...

- Microburst to a landing. Lucky bastards that day. Happened in just the right place to allow us to arrive very firmly at the runway pavement edge the SECOND time. Yes, there was a milder first time and we were brainiacs and did it twice.

Stuff I still want to do...

- Tow a glider.

- Get the glider rating.

- Get inverted on purpose. (Haven't been there by accident and don't want to do that.)

- More formation work. Training to tighten it up.

- More real IMC. More real approaches.

- Fill in my U.S. States map.

And probably more.

 

[RotorAndWing]

If your only choice is a very short strip to land in, it's definately an emergency. It's just a matter of degree.

Why would that be your "only choice"? And with most GA small airplanes you're only about 10 knots difference between landing flaps and flaps up. 10 knots additional speed on a 2500-3000 pound airframe is not that significant. Even flaps up on most turbo props is not that big of an event.

 

[iflyblog.com]

Back to the original question:

I taught many of my private students spins and at a minimum I would make them demonstrate a falling leaf (holding it into the stall with full back stick and keeping it upright with rudder).