Training Over Water (Ditching)

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bigblockz8

Pre-takeoff checklist
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I have a couple of lessons in the next two weeks. Where I fly, the training area is over the Chesapeake Bay. I have always had the thought in the back of my mind that one day we might have to ditch.

We try to stay within gliding distance of land but sometimes we end up 3 miles out at 2000ft doing stalls,slips,steep turns, and other maneuvers. If we have an engine failure (in a single), this being aviation, we do not have the option to glide. On a good day/with luck we can just prepare for an emergency landing in a field.

How exactly do you ditch?

I know that you're supposed to hold it off as long as possible, but with a high wing, fixed gear C172, I imagine nosing in as soon as that nose wheel comes down!

My idea is that we could trim the plane and both jump out. Let's set up a nice descent, take the seat belts off, climb out, hold onto the gear, let go and clear the tail. Let's do that at about 80 to 20 feet. In the air we assume a head first dive position of course.

Would you rather jump and possibly lose consciousness if you hit the water wrong, or try to land it in water and worry about being knocked unconscious and/or drowning?

If we have no option but to ditch, I'd rather go for a 40 foot fall than die inside of an airplane thanks to the dash. I've heard of plenty of ditching success stories...and stories of failures. Most success stories are in low wing retracts. Anybody know of a high wing fixed gear that wasn't float equipped, an amphibious aircraft, or flying boat?

*This is worst case scenario of course. Gliding would be the obvious first choice with ditching if unable to make it to land. This also assumes that the engine won't restart after numerous attempts.

Some things to consider:

At impact of the water you'll be going about 1.6x the speed of the plane.

A jump from 220ft takes 4 seconds to hit the water at about 75mph.

The majority of serious or critical injuries in any type of accident involve head trauma.

Professional divers have jumped from as high as 200 feet and survived.

Terminal velocity of a human is 117-125mph in random posture.
 
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bigblockz8 said:
My idea is that we could trim the plane and both jump out. Let's set up a nice descent, take the seat belts off, climb out, hold onto the gear, let go and clear the tail. Let's do that at about 100 to 40 feet. In the air we assume a head first dive position of course.
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Really bad idea.

You really think you can climb out, jump out, hit the water of 50-60 MPH and remain conscious?

:no:
 
dmccormack said:
Really bad idea.

You really think you can climb out, jump out, hit the water of 50-60 MPH and remain conscious?

:no:
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One of my favorite early Mythbusters episodes was where they studied the g-forces of a human body hitting the water. The myth was if something big enough to disturb the water preceded you, would you survive the fall.

I don't remember all the details, but I do remember the g-load they recorded from Buster hitting the undisturbed water at a significant height was quite considerable. Maybe not enough to cause death, but enough that you would be hurt pretty bad.
 
dmccormack said:
Really bad idea.

You really think you can climb out, jump out, hit the water of 50-60 MPH and remain conscious?

:no:
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My dad had a Marine buddy who fell out of a Huey and lived. He fell about 100 feet into water. He also has a friend who fell 30 feet off a telephone pole and into a river that was seriously injured. The river is rather deep. It's not the best idea but considering nosing over and being disoriented and possibly unconscious its worth some thought.
 
AggieMike88 said:
One of my favorite early Mythbusters episodes was where they studied the g-forces of a human body hitting the water. The myth was if something big enough to disturb the water preceded you, would you survive the fall.

I don't remember all the details, but I do remember the g-load they recorded from Buster hitting the undisturbed water at a significant height was quite considerable. Maybe not enough to cause death, but enough that you would be hurt pretty bad.
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If I remember my FAR's correctly the average GA plane has to restrain occupants in an average 9g crash. If the g's are lower from a dive I'd try it with Buster first just to test my theory.
 
Don't jump

Careful about flying over the bay this time of year. Its real cold. I was fishing 2 weeks ago and it was 54 degrees.. probably under 50 now.
 
bigblockz8 said:

Some things to consider:

At impact of the water you'll be going about 1.6x the speed of the plane.

A jump from 220ft takes 4 seconds to hit the water at about 75mph.

The majority of serious or critical injuries in any type of accident involve head trauma.

Professional divers have jumped from as high as 200 feet and survived.

Terminal velocity of a human is 117-125mph in random posture.
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Consider that your body will be moving at 50mph vertical and 65mph horizantally........ for a combined speed of 82mph. When the first part of your body enters the water it will decelerate, while the top half of your body continues forward.

Ever been bare foot waterskiing and catch a toe? Trust me, it hurts.....I even had to go to the hospital once. Water at 30mph is hard as a rock.

And once you leave the plane, you are just a projectile and the plane is just a missile.

I take my chance with the plane, near stall, hitting the water even with fixed gear high wing.
 
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bigblockz8 said:
My dad had a Marine buddy who fell out of a Huey and lived. He fell about 100 feet into water. He also has a friend who fell 30 feet off a telephone pole and into a river that was seriously injured. The river is rather deep. It's not the best idea but considering nosing over and being disoriented and possibly unconscious its worth some thought.
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OK, one last post on this rather silly idea:

You do NOT want to dive out of an airplane into water.

You sure you're gonna be able to dodge the tail on the way out? What if the airplane turns after you exit? What if it levels off and flies a mile past where you went in?

How are you going to exit while maintaining a stable platform to jump from?

It's hard enough to land feet first dropping straight down from a hovering chopper, but not very likely you'll achieve that after jumping from a flying airplane...

Smart pilots will fly the airplane all the way until it stops, every time, the end.
 
TripleZ said:
Consider that your body will be moving at 50mph vertical and 65mph horizantally........ for a combined speed of 82mph. When the first part of your body enters the water it will decelerate, while the top half of your body continues forward.

Ever been bare foot waterskiing and catch a toe? Trust me, it hurts.....I even had to go to the hospital once. Water at 30mph is hard as a rock.

And once you leave the plane, you are just a projectile and the plane is just a missile.

I take my chance with the plane, near stall, hitting the water even with fixed gear high wing.
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+1 from that altitude jumping out of the plane you would hit closer to 125mph due to gravity....that aside, don't leave the plane, in a single slow to stall horn as close to the water and then dig the tail in with doors unlocked or as the POH states....I thought about this quite a bit crossing Lake Michigan in a 182...so I bought a Skymaster. The problem is that even though it's possible, if you're on your game, it seems that most pics I see of a fixed gear aircraft landing in water are inverted...I did not like the prospect of getting my family out while upside down and sinking.
 
Fly the plane all the way to the water. Open doors before impact, stay with the plane. It will float for a good amount of time. That will make you easier to find.
 
Here is a Mooney on the water and it's rescue team. Some advantage of ditching is that the plane never gets on fire and the actual impact is softer than hitting a rock. Statistical data shows that on over 90% of the ditching passengers will survive. Much greater than crash landing on land.

José
 

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Okay, got the point. I also forgot one little fact, water is hard! In a go-fast boat falling out is lethal. I guess if I ever have to I'll just ride into the water. One more thing though...

I heard hangar talk of a pilot that sheared his floats off. He lived but got broken ribs apparently from the elevator punching him once the 182 was in the water and traveling forward. How do you assume the brace position? I know on an airliner it's to bend down and try to keep your feet up. (If you watch the Mayday series you'll learn that most survivors had their legs broken by the chair in front of them. Some who didnt happened to have their feet up.) Do you even brace? Drunk drivers unfortunately have a bit better luck in accidents due to a slow reaction to brace, potentially intensifying injuries.
 
The idea of jumping out is not sound, as other pointed out... the odds of getting it trimmed perfectly, having it not be disturbed by gusts or turbulence (or you climbing out) once you abandon the controls, getting out onto the step and entering the water in a perfect dive posture, all before the thing hits the water, are slim to none, if you ask me. Water is not compressible, so unless you are perfectly streamlined when you go in at, say, 50 mph, it's going to be like being flung into a brick wall at, say, 30mph. Ouch. Ever do a belly flop off a diving board six feet off the water? Much, much less energy involved there, but it hurts.
And of course, as I said, this is all assuming you set up this stunt perfectly within the allotted time (which will be brief). And what if you have pax? Gonna just leave them in the back seat while you do your miraculous dive? It's a bad idea all around.

Besides, even if it's a fixed gear nosewheel type and it digs in and the tail pops up, the seat belt and the airframe itself will protect you well enough. Not great, but well enough.

I've heard of fixed-gear Cessnas being ditched with great success... the trick is to land into the wind, parallel to swell or waves if possible (or just try to get as close to shore or a boat as possible), and slow it waaayyy down to minimize the forward motion on impact. Pretty much as you would with any airplane, and pretty much as you would if "landing out" on any surface that is not really suitable for landing.

And if you're going to be poking around at low altitudes over water for any length of time, wear a PFD, 'cuz ditching and getting out is only half the battle, even close to shore. If you are injured, swimming is not going to be easy, even if you're a good swimmer and the water isn't very cold.

As for bracing and such, I recall a fairly recent post in these forums with a link to a very informative Air Force lecture on the subject, by a pilot who'd survived a nasty jet fighter emergency landing... he'd made a study of air crash survivability, and he had some advice on surviving car accidents, as well. I couldn't explain it all as well as he did... anybody have the link handy?
 
May 6, 2010, 7:19 AM


The NTSB met on Tuesday to conclude its 15-month investigation into the Jan. 15, 2009, accident of US Airways Flight 1549, flown by Capt. Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger and FO Jeffrey Skiles. Shortly after departing New York La Guardia Airport, their Airbus A320 struck a flock of Canada geese at 2,700 feet, heavily damaging both engines and forcing the crew to ditch the airliner in the Hudson River. All of the 150 passengers and five crewmembers survived. “Once the birds and the airplane collided and the accident became inevitable, so many things went right,” said NTSB chairman Deborah Hersman. “This is a great example of the professionalism of the crewmembers, air traffic controllers and emergency responders who all played a role in preserving the safety of everyone aboard.” The NTSB’s final report validated Sullenberger’s decision to ditch in the Hudson River, saying that it “provided the highest probability that the accident would be survivable.” As part of the hearing, the Board made 35 safety recommendations on engine and aircraft certification standards, checklist design, flight-crew training, airport-wildlife mitigation, cabin safety equipment and preflight passenger briefings.

The above demonstrate the safety on ditching. I would rather ditch on a lake or a river than crash landing on a forest or a congested road.

José
 
Piloto said:
May 6, 2010, 7:19 AM


The NTSB met on Tuesday to conclude its 15-month investigation into the Jan. 15, 2009, accident of US Airways Flight 1549, flown by Capt. Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger and FO Jeffrey Skiles. Shortly after departing New York La Guardia Airport, their Airbus A320 struck a flock of Canada geese at 2,700 feet, heavily damaging both engines and forcing the crew to ditch the airliner in the Hudson River. All of the 150 passengers and five crewmembers survived. “Once the birds and the airplane collided and the accident became inevitable, so many things went right,” said NTSB chairman Deborah Hersman. “This is a great example of the professionalism of the crewmembers, air traffic controllers and emergency responders who all played a role in preserving the safety of everyone aboard.” The NTSB’s final report validated Sullenberger’s decision to ditch in the Hudson River, saying that it “provided the highest probability that the accident would be survivable.” As part of the hearing, the Board made 35 safety recommendations on engine and aircraft certification standards, checklist design, flight-crew training, airport-wildlife mitigation, cabin safety equipment and preflight passenger briefings.

The above demonstrate the safety on ditching. I would rather ditch on a lake or a river than crash landing on a forest or a congested road.

José
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In flight 1549's case that was the only thing they could do. The engines on the A320 are worse than fixed gear. You also have to remember that he has lots of intimate knowledge of the plane. My CFI is fresh, and I am a student, that's two inexperienced people. More like one because I am not PIC.

Remember Ethiopian Flight 96...that wasn't a good ditching. On the other hand the recent C302 was. There was also a Citation when I was a kid that I remember ditching and the pilot was knocked out, rescuers saved him from drowning. Then there's also this Citation crash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Yf6_MVTck
 
Most important thing next to flying the plane until it stops is to make sure you have a shoulder harness(s) on and make it tight. If you search through NTSB reports on ditchings, you will find that most survived. You may end up upside down, but that is still survivable.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Remember Ethiopian Flight 96...that wasn't a good ditching.
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FWIW, the only difference in the outcome of Ethiopian 961 and Sully's Hudson landing was that the left engine of the 767 snagged a rock/reef below the water.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I heard hangar talk of a pilot that sheared his floats off. He lived but got broken ribs apparently from the elevator punching him once the 182 was in the water and traveling forward. How do you assume the brace position? I know on an airliner it's to bend down and try to keep your feet up. (If you watch the Mayday series you'll learn that most survivors had their legs broken by the chair in front of them. Some who didnt happened to have their feet up.) Do you even brace? Drunk drivers unfortunately have a bit better luck in accidents due to a slow reaction to brace, potentially intensifying injuries.
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You passengers can brace or assume the airline tuck, but your job as PIC is to fly the airplane, all the way down.

Commit to that before you push the big knob forward every time.
 
The answere to "How do you ditch" is not easy, mostly because not alot of people have experience with this and its not possible to practice it. There are also alot of variables. Best answer it to follow the POH and use your instincts.
The more stories I read about ditching, the more i have put into my mind that if the terrain not that great, I very well could aim for the water. That is of course very dependent on ALOT of variables. There are stories of people in high and low wing aircraft ditching with success.
Just my 2 cents.
 
I think the point has been made that jumping out, although Hollywood would make it look great, is not a viable option. Keep in mind that most crashes are survivable when the aircraft is controlled and at low energy. This includes landing on water, open fields, trees, or mountains.

Someone mentioned being securely strapped in during the crash. This is key to any crash. In a water ditching scenario it is important to stay strapped in until the aircraft comes to a complete stop. Then you can egress. You may have to hold your breath until the pressure equalizes though. Opening a window, if able, will help speed the process. When you do finally unstrap keep at least one hand hold on the aircraft until you are out. This will keep you from floating inside and potentially trapping you. And DO NOT inflate ANYTHING while still inside!!

The above is good advice regardless of the size of the vehicle you're in (plane, car, bus, etc.).
 
N2124v said:
Fly the plane all the way to the water. Open doors before impact, stay with the plane. It will float for a good amount of time. That will make you easier to find.
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+1..
Get the plane to its lowest controllable airspeed and let the airframe take the brunt of the impact...... Watch this video closely and see how survivable a water landing can be,,,, And as others have pointed out water does NOT burn..:nonod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6e3n1RYvsI
 
Anymouse said:
Someone mentioned being securely strapped in during the crash. This is key to any crash. In a water ditching scenario it is important to stay strapped in until the aircraft comes to a complete stop. Then you can egress. You may have to hold your breath until the pressure equalizes though. Opening a window, if able, will help speed the process. When you do finally unstrap keep at least one hand hold on the aircraft until you are out. This will keep you from floating inside and potentially trapping you. And DO NOT inflate ANYTHING while still inside!!

The above is good advice regardless of the size of the vehicle you're in (plane, car, bus, etc.).
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkFR2f7zYac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyx1E2s-tsE&feature=relmfu

Apparently, the "wait for pressure to equalize" method isn't all that it's cracked up to be.
 
ki4lzk said:
I can assure you I am going to try and open the door as soon as possible.
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Me too, but the reality is that the outside pressure may be more than you can overcome if you're underwater. The good news is that if the pressure is too much to overcome, you'll also have air to breath. Most people will be able to create an opening before all the air is gone.
 
Anymouse said:
Try getting the door open without equalized pressure.
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When the vehicle is only partly submerged, the pressure is already, more or less, equal... but you're moving the door through air, mostly, not water. So it's easier. Stuff is just harder to move underwater than in air. The less water there is surrounding that door, the better.
You can see in the vids that the water level inside the car remains pretty consistent with the water level of the pool... until it goes under completely.

I think that if there was no water at all inside a completely submerged vehicle, things might be quite different (?)... but that's unlikely to be the case, unless a giant kraken drags you under. :D
 
Fearless Tower said:
Most important thing next to flying the plane until it stops is to make sure you have a shoulder harness(s) on and make it tight. If you search through NTSB reports on ditchings, you will find that most survived. You may end up upside down, but that is still survivable.
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What he said. In fact, I'd be very hesitant to get in the front seat of a GA aircraft without them. Many deaths in the sudden-stop situations are due to head trauma, from impacting the panel or the yoke. And no, in a sudden stop, you won't be able to prevent it without shoulder restraints.
 
rottydaddy said:
When the vehicle is only partly submerged, the pressure is already, more or less, equal... but you're moving the door through air, mostly, not water. So it's easier. Stuff is just harder to move underwater than in air. The less water there is surrounding that door, the better.
You can see in the vids that the water level inside the car remains pretty consistent with the water level of the pool... until it goes under completely.

I think that if there was no water at all inside a completely submerged vehicle, things might be quite different (?)... but that's unlikely to be the case, unless a giant kraken drags you under. :D
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My point exactly.
 
Open door, reclose latch

If you have time. I don't like the thought of having to smash my way out through plexi windows...
 
A CFI I flew with once (who had ditched a 152 after the engine came apart) told me (and I agree) that putting the mains on the water with locked brakes will let it ski a bit more, and thus nose over at a lower speed. This was in reference to a TW aircraft, but I suspect it holds true in anything. Worked for him in the 152....apparently.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Remember Ethiopian Flight 96...that wasn't a good ditching.
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Ethiopian Flight 961 was not a ditching at all.

220px-Ditching_of_Ethiopian_Airlines_Flt_961.JPG


It was an uncontrolled CRASH into the water. A "ditching" occurs after the aircraft is configured and flown in accordance with the POH, emergency section.

I've been following aircraft ditching for many years. I have never heard of anyone dying in a proper ditching. They may die afterwords of drowning or exposure. Now that I've said that I'm sure people will dig one out of google somewhere, and I welcome that.:yesnod:
 
I'll keep this in mind. I forgot that I'm done with stalls and that we might only go back to the practice area for checking PTS in a few more months. Best idea would to stay within glide distance of land.
 
This is of interest to me since flying the Bay Tour requires you to be over miles of water at very low altitudes, with mountains / cliffs around.

Due to the rules about staying under the Bravo, you may or may not be within gliding distance to land, and the land looks like this:

9391-4.jpg


Or this (wait there is a beach!):

DSCF0778.JPG
 
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