Training and PIC question

alaskaflyer

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Alaskaflyer
Is it possible to complete the required flight training and the checkride for CSEL without the ability to be legal PIC? Assume lack of a current medical, or lack of flight review currency.

I'm asking for both practical and regulatory issues.
 
How would you be able to fly to the checkride without a medical or being legally current in the aircraft?
 
I suppose you could get away with doing the training, but how on earth would the person do a checkride? Gotta have the medical and current flight review for that.
 
I need to go read the regs again - to make sure they call out out for a current medical to take a ride.
 
Is it possible to complete the required flight training
Yes
and the checkride for CSEL without the ability to be legal PIC?
No.

The "yes" - with the October 2009 revisions, the concept of substituting "performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board" for solo time was expanded from multi to the other category/classes under 61.129, so you can conceivably meet all the requirements without having to solo (we shouldn't have to mention at this point that logging PIC time toward certificate and ratings only requires you be sole manipulator - I am assuming that you already have a PSEL).

The "no" - You said to assume lack of a current medical. At least a 3rd class medical is required to take the commercial practical test. Since you are a potential commercial pilot, I'll let you find the reg.
 
Unless you can find a sim that you can do the whole checkride in...no medical needed then.
 
I know already certificated flight instructors can flight instruct (not primary students) without a medical, as long as they aren't acting PIC per some interpretation IIRC.

With that logic, could you become a flight instructor, to only teach more advanced students, without ever having a medical? I don't think so, but, might be an interesting interpretation.
 
Is it possible to complete the required flight training and the checkride for CSEL without the ability to be legal PIC? Assume lack of a current medical, or lack of flight review currency.

I'm asking for both practical and regulatory issues.

From the PTS..
Commercial Pilot—Airplane Practical Test Prerequisites
An applicant for the Commercial Pilot—Airplane Practical Test is
required by 14 CFR part 61 to:
1. be at least 18 years of age;
2. be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English
language. If there is a doubt, use AC 60-28, English Language
Skill Standards;
3. possess a private pilot certificate with an airplane rating, if a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane rating is sought, or
meet the flight experience required for a private pilot certificate
(airplane rating) and pass the private airplane knowledge and
practical test;
4. possess an instrument rating (airplane) or the following limitation
shall be placed on the commercial pilot certificate: “Carrying
passengers in airplanes for hire is prohibited at night or on
cross-country flights of more than 50 nautical miles;”
5. have passed the appropriate commercial pilot knowledge test
since the beginning of the 24th month before the month in which
he or she takes the practical test;
6. have satisfactorily accomplished the required training and
obtained the aeronautical experience prescribed;
7 FAA-S-8081-12B
Change 2 (dated 2/3/09)
7. possess at least a current third class medical certificate;
8. have an endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying
that the applicant has received and logged training time within
60 days preceding the date of application in preparation for the
practical test, and is prepared for the practical test; and
9. also have an endorsement certifying that the applicant has
demonstrated satisfactory knowledge of the subject areas in
which the applicant was deficient on the airman knowledge test.
 
The PTS isn't regulatory, but the regulations are:
Sec. 61.39

Prerequisites for practical tests.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, to be eligible for a practical test for a certificate or rating issued under this part, an applicant must:
...
(4) Hold at least a third-class medical certificate, if a medical certificate is required;
Therefore, for any practical test for a pilot certificate or rating for which a medical is required to exercise the privileges, you must have a medical certificate valid at least at Third Class to take the practical test. There is no exception to this rule involving having the examiner act as PIC. The only exception is that an applicant taking a combined special medical test and practical test with an FAA Inspector can take the test with a medical stamped "Student Pilot use only," as authorized by FAA Order 8900.1.

As for instructors, if a medical is required to exercise all of the privileges of the flight instructor certificate sought, the FAA does not authorize examiners to give the practical test without the applicant holding a valid medical certificate. Thus, CFI-SP, CFI-Balloon, and CFI-G can be obtained without a medical, but not CFI-Airplane.

Also, since the medical is a prerequisite for the practical test without regard to taking it in a sim versus an aircraft, taking the ride entirely in a sim (which is not, AFAIK, possible for anything other than some additional type ratings anyway) is not a way around the requirement.

Finally, it's not just acting as PIC which requires a flight instructors to have a medical, it's any situation where the instructor is a required pilot crewmember, and the required pilot crewmember requires a medical. This would include airplanes where two pilots are required, or acting as safety pilot for a trainee using a vision-restricting device.
 
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In Canada, at least, a long solo cross-country trip is required as part of the CPL training. Pretty hard to do that legally without a valid medical.

Dan
 
In Canada, at least, a long solo cross-country trip is required as part of the CPL training. Pretty hard to do that legally without a valid medical.
It is in the US, too, but it's possible someone could have completed all their solo requirements before they lost their medical. However, in that case, because of 61.39(a)(4), they can't take the CP-Airplane practical test until they get it back.
 
Is it possible to complete the required flight training and the checkride for CSEL without the ability to be legal PIC? Assume lack of a current medical, or lack of flight review currency.

I'm asking for both practical and regulatory issues.
So far it seems everyone has focused on the lack of a current medical. I don't think that a commercial applicant would need to be current flight review wise or WRT landings though as long as the examiner is willing to act as PIC during the checkride. Of course, after a successful practical test the pilot would be flight review current and likely landing current.
 
So far it seems everyone has focused on the lack of a current medical. I don't think that a commercial applicant would need to be current flight review wise or WRT landings though as long as the examiner is willing to act as PIC during the checkride. Of course, after a successful practical test the pilot would be flight review current and likely landing current.
Concur, but I can't imagine an examiner agreeing to be PIC under those circumstances (the FAA strongly discourages it). Nor can I imagine an instructor signing someone off for a commercial practical test without being able to sign that person off for a flight review on the recommendation ride, nor completing such a ride without at least three takeoffs and landings. In that case, why would the recommending instructor not sign a flight review to make the practical test less of a problem? Thus, I don't see this part as anything but an academic exercise in reg-reading.
 
Concur, but I can't imagine an examiner agreeing to be PIC under those circumstances (the FAA strongly discourages it). Nor can I imagine an instructor signing someone off for a commercial practical test without being able to sign that person off for a flight review on the recommendation ride, nor completing such a ride without at least three takeoffs and landings. In that case, why would the recommending instructor not sign a flight review to make the practical test less of a problem? Thus, I don't see this part as anything but an academic exercise in reg-reading.

Good point.

It came up in a bull shooting session the other day. I worded the question inelegantly but it has been answered in spades. Thanks.
 
Concur, but I can't imagine an examiner agreeing to be PIC under those circumstances (the FAA strongly discourages it). Nor can I imagine an instructor signing someone off for a commercial practical test without being able to sign that person off for a flight review on the recommendation ride, nor completing such a ride without at least three takeoffs and landings. In that case, why would the recommending instructor not sign a flight review to make the practical test less of a problem? Thus, I don't see this part as anything but an academic exercise in reg-reading.
I agree it does sound pretty implausible. Probably the most likely scenario would be a candidate realizing at the last moment that his last flight review expired yesterday and is a good friend of the examiner with whom he's scheduled to fly a checkride today. And if the DE weren't an understanding friend such a scenario and request might not be the best way to start out on a practical test.
 
his last flight review expired yesterday and is a good friend of the examiner with whom he's scheduled to fly a checkride today.
That's a nice "homey" thought that used to be possible 'back in the day', before the issue of legal liability became the main driver of this scenario.

The reason the FAA 'strongly discourages' Examiners from accepting PIC responsibility is because the Government cannot accept fiscal responsibility.
 
The reason the FAA 'strongly discourages' Examiners from accepting PIC responsibility is because the Government cannot accept fiscal responsibility.
That's certainly an issue when an Inspector gives the test, but I don't see how it would be an issue if a DPE is the examiner.
 
It is more of a direct issue with the govt inspector, but the DE is a representative of the govt., so he can be a vehicle thru which to sue the govt.

It's a hassle for either one, so I'm just sayin', it is not an easy decision to make.
 
It is more of a direct issue with the govt inspector, but the DE is a representative of the govt., so he can be a vehicle thru which to sue the govt.
You might want to run that past an attorney who works in the field -- I don't think it's true.
 
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